Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)

[utunnels]

 
Maybe as a video game, it is more like a fairy tale than a SF...a simple theory might works, but if you think it too hard, well, you might get some result against our knowledge...
Or maybe if we are a children, we won't try to mess it up, "Oh, some guys travel backward in time, so it is changed".

But anyway, it is still interesting reading your discussions.

[Shadow D. Darkman]

Should I PM an admin requesting arbitration of this? A debate concerning the validity of Time Bastard seems to be off topic, but in case I'm wrong, I prefer to err on the side of caution.

[FaustWolf]

So long as the argument over Time Bastard features Eclipse Magus or some other aspect of CT:DS, it's perfectly germane to this thread.

[Shadow D. Darkman]

ATM, it doesn't look like it.

[Eske]

I fail to see how TTI or Time Bastard are being violated here.

Let's assume that Eclipse Magus is from the future:

Time Bastard prevents "doubles" from occurring.  This doesn't mean you could never see yourself - it means you will never see a "second self" appear from the gate you most recently came from.  Example:

1. Crono A travels to 600AD, then 635AD then 700AD then comes to rest.
2. Crono B will be TB'ed when entering the gate to 600AD; Crono C at 635AD; and Crono D at 700AD.

This way Crono B won't appear right after Crono A in 600AD and so on.  Here is an example comparable to what might have happened with E. Magus vs our Magus:

1. We can only enter the DBT after Lavos dies (load up an old save).
2. The new dimensional vortexes appear in all time periods once they are created.
3. Our original Magus finds his way to the DBT.
4. Before reaching the point of being TB'ed, Crono and Co. in a timeline that now holds these vortexes are able and do make a choice to explore them.  They enter the new gate in the bucket and end up at the DBT only to meet who is now known as Eclipse Magus.

Eclipse Magus travels at:  X----------------DBT
Other  Magus  travels at:  X--------DBT---TB

^ just a simple model.   As long as you make the choice to time travel a different way before your "current" counterpart made his or her final time travel, you are solid - and could theoretically meet that counterpart.  This new choice exists for the Crono team because of an external change made simultaneously to all time periods.

[chrono eric]

I was going to post a response nearly identical to Eske's but I was beaten to it. I agree with Eske, in every scenario that one could imagine for Eclipse Magus TTI and TB do not have to be violated at all.

And just thought I would comment on this too (Although Art already did):

Time bastard is never stated in the game. Unless the developers stated that it was canon, it is a theory. I'm not saying it's not possible, I'm just saying you can't disprove people's theories with other theories.

TB and TTI are a necessary component of the Chronoverse because paradoxes and duplicates are not created in the game. I highly, highly doubt that the developers sat down and said "OK, we're gonna include this (insert theory very similar to TB and TTI) to account for continuity in the story!", they just wanted to make a good game and a good story. So in that respect, you are correct.

But you fail to see that you cannot have a coherent story about time travel without TB or TTI (or something very similar) being present as long as you make it paradox-free. Go ahead, why don't you try for yourself. It's not possible. So in the end, TB and TTI matches the facts of the way time travel works in the Chronoverse whether or not the developers intended it that way, and it accounts for, predicts, and explains a great deal about the story of Trigger and Cross.

We simply can't have a meaningful discussion about canon endings without it.

[Shadow D. Darkman]

An example of my position is Marle's disappearance in 600 A.D. at the very beginning of the game.

IMO, she gets a taste of Time Bastard, but the Entity preserves her, despite the fact that she still has to go to the Darkness Of Time until her existence is reinstated in the timeline.

IMO, the Entity did not detain her to create that spark that would send Crono on his journey to defeat Lavos. I think it just made sure she was able to return when the timeline stated her existence as true.

[chrono eric]

This thread is getting too off topic now, but I have to comment on the fact that...

An example of my position is Marle's disappearance in 600 A.D. at the very beginning of the game.

IMO, she gets a taste of Time Bastard, but the Entity preserves her, despite the fact that she still has to go to the Darkness Of Time until her existence is reinstated in the timeline.

...this makes no sense. She shouldn't be Time Bastarded away at all. Clearly her disappearance was an oversight by the developers of the game when they were trying to reconcile the concept of time travel and paradoxes. You can rationalize it as "The Entity made it happen", that's fine, but she should not be TB'd away because most importantly she is A) The present version of Marle and B) Did not time travel again after she appeared in 600 AD.

[Shadow D. Darkman]

That was an opinion, which of course is subject to change. Whether it's valid or not is irrelevant.

[chrono eric]

What? I wasn't trying to "invalidate" your opinion at all, I was just pointing out that Marle couldn't have been Time Bastarded in this instance.

[toki1776]

I see no real issue with Eclipse Magus being a future version of Magus from your party, assuming Crono & co. get their memories erased, of course...

Some things I've been thinking about...

Is it possible that everything involving the DVs, including the encounter with Dalton, is erased? That would help explain why Dalton was still able to get the drop on them...

Also, could Dalton's portals possibly be small dimensional vortexes themselves, ones which (after he was sucked into one) he is fully able to understand and use? Maybe he was able to use them in the "removal" of Crono & Nadia..

[V_Translanka]

Future version? I figured he was from the original party that actually defeated Lavos...Since the Dimensional Vortexes only appear once you've defeated Lavos, everything you see is basically New/Continue Game+...

[FaustWolf]

"Future" Magus is tantamount to saying he's the Magus the party recruited in CT, for purposes of this thread. If people want to delineate the Magus we see in the Darkness Beyond Time from the Magus who we recruit in CT, best to call him Eclipse Magus. However, Eclipse Magus and Future Magus may be one in the same. Er, yeah.

[toki1776]

"Future" Magus is tantamount to saying he's the Magus the party recruited in CT, for purposes of this thread. If people want to delineate the Magus we see in the Darkness Beyond Time from the Magus who we recruit in CT, best to call him Eclipse Magus. However, Eclipse Magus and Future Magus may be one in the same. Er, yeah.

*ahem* My mistake... I'll keep that in mind, I also kind phrased that first point poorly...

[FaustWolf]

Aha, aha! More circumstantial evidence that if the Chrono Trigger team did make it into the DBT, their memories of the dimensional vortices and DBT may have been erased -- remember how Serge & co.'s memories are erased as part of the canonical ending of Chrono Cross? This is apparently something Schala is able to do voluntarily, because the alternate endings in Cross clearly illustrate that the characters have retained their memories after exiting the DBT.

Not sure it's been mentioned before, but I think the connection here is important.