Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)

[art_garfunkel]

Aha, aha! More circumstantial evidence that if the Chrono Trigger team did make it into the DBT, their memories of the dimensional vortices and DBT may have been erased -- remember how Serge & co.'s memories are erased as part of the canonical ending of Chrono Cross? This is apparently something Schala is able to do voluntarily, because the alternate endings in Cross clearly illustrate that the characters have retained their memories after exiting the DBT.

Not sure it's been mentioned before, but I think the connection here is important.

I love you for this post. I've been trying to come up with something to validate that idea for a while. Thanks.

[Onikage725]

Let me start by apologizing if I retread anything already well rebuked, or screw up any of the time travel theories. As you can tell, I'm new here and trying to catch up quick with the discussion.

My impression while playing through the vortices was that the events being witnessed were important, but that the team probably didn't really interact with them. I found it to be an interesting game mechanic to show us some bonus content. The Lost Sanctum, however, I thought could have directly involved the CT team. This is mainly because of the way the developers present the two new areas.

The Dimensional Vortex only appears after Lavos' defeat. Now, if the game let you load up your save and just dink around post-game that would be one thing. But it doesn't. You have to either load your pre-Lavos fight save or start a New Game +. I think we all can agree that NG+ exists for fun and for easy collection of bonus endings, right? Obviously Crono and Co. running around at that level of power and with advanced equipment so early isn't a part of the canon.

So the simple problem here is that if you pursue the Dimensional Vortex events in your original save, you ultimately face the Dream Devourer BEFORE fighting Lavos. Here's where I'm not sure if I'm butchering any time travel rules. But if you're team is supposed to be the team that inadvertently creates the Dream Devourer (first by interfering at the Ocean Palace and second by kicking Lavos' ass), how in the hell can you encounter the DD BEFORE you've kicked Lavos' ass? You pick from the bucket whether to fight Lavos or the DD (more or less). I am assuming here that after Lavos' defeat, the bucket no longer dropped you off right in front of him. Once he was killed, that was it for him, and off to the DBT he went.

So this suggests, to me, either utterly non-canon events just to let us feel nice for dropping $40 on a port, or possibly an AU event. By AU, I'm talking more Radical Dreamers than CC Home World/Another World. As in, non-canon. I see my time in the vortices as being as canon as what I did next- started a New Game +, equipped Crono with his spiffiest gear (including his shiny new probably non-canon sword of awesome), and solo-killed Lavos at the fair grounds all of five minutes after he got out of bed at the start of the adventure.

As for Magus, I tend to think he's the main one from the game, just further along. Operating as I do under the assumption that the party never really participated in these events, I have no questions regarding the nature of two Magus'. I just see the one. I don't place any special significance on the Prophet guise, either. As was pointed out, sprites were being reused like crazy for the bonus content. Also, how significant is the cloak? Was it something he jacked from a passerby in Zeal? No one else dressed like that. For all we know, it was rain gear he fashioned in the Middle Ages that just happened to come in handy when he needed to look mysterious in front of his mother. Or, to put it another way, Spider Man dressing in black is often indicative of either his mood or a lazy laundry week, not that he's re-bonded with the Venom symbiote. Just because he hid under a cloak and hood as the prophet doesn't mean that it's the only time he may have felt like putting on a cloak and hood.

And I will admit that I think the ending opens the possibility of a Magus-Guile link, just because it's too neat and tidy. Not only that, but if they want to insert him into those events in another way it will make Guile very, very redundant.

The Lost Sanctum... while I think it could be canon due to its access within the main storyline, I'm at a loss as to why we should give a damn. Seriously, outside of some cool equipment, what was the point? Sorry, I just hate fetch quests. I stopped playing Dragon Ball Z: Legacy of Goku 2 the exact moment Mr. Satan ordered me to get him a sandwich.

Those are my thoughts/opinions on the new material anyway.

[Neku]

Personally, I agree with what Eske said a couple of pages ago about the identity of Eclipse Magus. I can't quote it because I don't retrieve the original post xD

In a schematic view:

1) Crono and his happy crew (including* a Magus that we'll call "Party Magus") go and defeat Lavos. The player gets the happy ending, Crono marries Marle, Lucca discovers Kid, Frog gets his human form back, etc etc etc, and Party Magus goes back to 12000 BC in order to search for Schala. The player unlocks the Dimensional Vortexes.

*note: we don't really have to think about nothing if we don't have saved Magus on North Peak. The canon says that Magus is alive and well at the end of Chrono Trigger, and that he undoubtfully joined Crono's party. Since here we're discussing the canon, we can safely assume that Magus IS in the party.

Let's think about it. Why do these Vortexes open? We only know that the DVs are, somehow, connected with the Time's Eclipse (or the Darkness Beyond Time, as you wish to call it). Maybe the three clones REALLY are the Ghost Children, or something like that. But let's stick to some known facts: when the DVs open, SURELY Lavos is already in the DBT assimilating Schala and forming the Dream Devourer. Since we already know that the DBT is a place, well, away from every timeline and every dimension, we can safely assume that once Lavos is defeated in one savegame we can find the Dream Devourer in every dimension- i.e. in EVERY other savegame originated from that one. The DVs may be a gameplay-only requirement. So, we can theorize that if someone else (that isn't Crono's party) want to access the Time's Eclipse, that someone doesn't have to pass through the three DVs.

Another thing: apart from defeating the Dream Devourer, the only way to truly finish the game is defeating Lavos. So, another thing we can theorize is that once Lavos/Dream Devourer is beaten, Crono and friends are "off duty" and never do a battle again (maybe for the exception of the Guardia battle that determines the Rise of Porre). What I'm saying here is this: if we defeat Lavos in a savegame, and then we load back that same savegame, we must think that THAT IS ANOTHER DIMENSION, and that party is another party with another Crono, another Lucca etc. Our "view" of every dimension basically finishes when we defeat Lavos. This thing is fundamental. We can proceed =D

2) Party Magus, while searching for Schala, learns that she's being held captive by Lavos in the DBT and somehow finds a way to get to this place. So, Party Magus enters the DBT (or Time's Eclipse).
~MEANWHILE~
3) Our happy player loads back the savegame in which he defeated Lavos, thus watching another dimension. He finishes the three DVs and goes to the Time's Eclipse.

Guess who's there? Eclipse Magus! But, if you've followed my line, we know that this Eclipse Magus is really our "old" Party Magus! Then, the battle rages: Eclipse/Old Party Magus gets his sorry ass beaten, the alternate-dimension-Crono's party wins but they somehow get their sorry ass equally beaten. Schala teleports all the people out of the Time's Eclipse, probably erasing the memories of Old Party Magus (I don't understand if his memories are erased by himself, actually). She doesn't erase the memories of the alternate-dimension-party: in fact, they were sent to the right time, and when (after some years) Porre+Dalton arrives, the party beats the crap out of them and Guardia reigns.

The history which we witnessed in Chrono Cross (where Porre wins over Guardia, etc.) is simply the history of the Original dimension (those events listed at number 1).  Original-dimension-party didn't go to the Dimensional Vortexes at all, thus they didn't know about Dalton and Porre's attack, and thus here's how the Fall of Guardia happened. I think it's a good way to explain the new things in Trigger DS and accept them into canon without having to redo all the theories about the Fall of Guardia and such.

Uhm, well... I think a sort of mini-map can be of help.

Code: [Select]

Original Dimension, Savegame 1
                                                                                   Porre strikes; party
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------> doesn't know a thing, ---> Chrono Cross Events
   |                     |                          |                          |   Guardia falls
Crono and party      Moonlight Parade          The party continues to          |   
defeat Lavos;        events; Party Magus       live an happy life,             |
Lavos goes to DBT    sets back to 12000 BC     save for Party Magus            |
and forms the        to save Schala;           which learns that Schala        |
Dream Devourer       player gets access        is kept at Lavos' stake         |
                     to the Dimensional        in Time's Eclipse               |
                     Vortexes                                                  |
                                                                               |
                                                                               |
                                                                      Party Magus finds a way to the
                                                                      Time's Eclipse and go there
                                                                               |
                           +---------------------------------------------------+
                           |
Time's Eclipse, Savegame 1*|
                           |                                                   
---------------------------+---------> Dream Devourer events                             
                           |                                                             
                           +----------------------------------------------------+
                                                                                |
Alternate Dimension, Savegame 1*                                    Alternate Crono's party go to the Time's Eclipse
                                                                                |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+--+--> Porre strikes, but the heroes knew and win
   |                             |                          |                      |
Instead of defeating     They encounter Dalton      Gaspar senses something     Party is teleported
Lavos, this alternate    which tells his dreams     at 1999 AD; the way to      by Schala out of
Crono's party goes       of conquering Guardia      Time's Eclipse is open      DBT
to the DVs               with Porre's army

*note: Savegame 1 is the Original savegame, Savegame 1* means that the player has saved after the credits roll (so, he basically added the DVs to
the Original Savegame).

[art_garfunkel]

This is ridiculous. Chrono and co. fight the DD after they fight Lavos, clearly. Savegames are a gameplay feature. the fact that you have to reload a file to get to the Vortexes means nothing in terms of the timeline.

[Neku]

Well, it's a bit too easy to explain something using the phrase "it's a gameplay feature". One could say that, in reality, Crono and co. never battled Lavos, and that the final battle it's only a gameplay feature (it's a nonsense, just to show how that phrase could theoretically explain every situation in the game). And, plus, there's absolutely no evidence that the DD is defeated after Lavos. One can finish the three Vortexes and then go battle Lavos in 1999 AD, which means that the alien parasite is alive and well. The game's developers could make the Time's Eclipse accessible only in a New Game +, like what they did with Ozzie & Co. in Chrono Cross: we all know that the extra events in a New Game +, such as the alternate endings, are considered non-canon. If they made that one can load back the file in which they defeated Lavos and still play both the Lavos' and DD's battles, there is a significance (at least in my humble opinion).

Schala could as well have erased the memories of everyone, thus eliminating the need of a more elaborate theory on who really is the Magus in Time's Eclipse. We know from the final dialogue in Cross that she has the power to do that. But such a dialogue is absent from the afterbattle with the DD in Trigger DS (i.e. she doesn't say a word about that), and moreover we don't even know if Schala actually erased Eclipse Magus' memories (it seems to me that he erased them himself). But, more importantly, Schala doesn't have something that we learned (from a certain blue-dressed attorney) is crucial in doing something "evil" such as erasing everyone's memories: motive. Why the Zeal princess had to make Crono and co. forget about the Dream Devourer is still understandable (she says that even their power isn't enough to save her, and basically tells them not to try anymore to stop the DD), but why the hell she makes them forget about the DVs and Dalton? If she wishes their death, she could have killed them by herself. She won't gain anything from the Rise of Porre anyway.

[Chrono'99]

Don't listen to him; there's nothing ridiculous in this theory. It's based on facts and is not farfetched. I think, however, that Aitrus' explanation from the CT DS differences thread is more simple:

I know it's been a long time since I've been active here, but the new release is bringing a bunch of people out of the woodworks, it seems.  Picked up both the game and a DS over the weekend, spent all weekend savoring it (working on the sidequests post-Crono revival now), and decided to stop in and see what was up.  Found this, though, and had to weigh in with my two cents.

So, does this means that the whole Dream Devourer thing is a 'post-game event'? It could make sense that way. Although, how would they get there I don't know.

The point is raised that since this takes place in the old save file after beating the game, where does the fight take place?  Is it in a world after Lavos' defeat, or before?  Why does it have to be clear cut?

If we assume that Lavos' defeat pushes him into the Tesseract, where he joins with Schala, then there is no problem here.  After all, the Tesseract is a side dimension, and is equally accessible from 65,000,000 BC as it is from the End of Time.  Time flows differently there, so Lavos is present after you end the game, even though you haven't beaten him yet.  Both he and Schala are there, despite Lavos still threatening the world, because you shunted him there earlier.

All it requires is thinking of reloading the old save file as a form of time travel.  You're taking the characters back in time to a point before Lavos was defeated, but the Tesseract is unchanging.  It doesn't care what you do, it will remain the same.

Anyway, that's just my two cents; we'll see how they hold up despite having been gone far too long.

Earlier in this topic I came up with a theory that's basically the same as Aitrus', except at the time I didn't know the Time's Eclipse could be reached in an old save file (as opposed to a New Game+). Just replace New Game+ with old save file in the following quote:

How can Crono's party even meet the Dream Devourer?
They can because this only happens in New Game+, i.e. in the timeline in which the Time's Eclipse/Darkness Beyond Time already saw a defeated Lavos enter it. Crono's party can still meet the living Lavos in 1,999 A.D., but that's because his pocket dimension may not be extra-temporal after all.

To understand that, imagine that Serge, in Chrono Cross, could time travel to 12,001 B.C. (one year before the Ocean Palace incident). He would definitely meet Schala in Zeal, but that doesn't change the fact that in the Darkness Beyond Time, a Schala has already appeared from 12,000 B.C. to form the Time Devourer.

To go back to CT DS...This basically means that in New Game+, you're playing the "past" versions of the time travelers (the "present" versions are the ones from New Game, who defeated Lavos and created the Dream Devourer for the "past" versions to see). Mmh, actually, this should mean that the "past" versions get Time Bastarded at one point...I'm not sure this theory holds water, but it's something to consider. Especially if their Time Bastardization is what leads to the party not remembering Dalton's shocking relevation.

These and Neku's theory are essentially variants of the same theory, and I think so far it's the best one because it's the only one that accounts for both storyline and gameplay features without leaving any hole or making compromises (like "this part is canonical but didn't happen").

[Onikage725]

This is ridiculous. Chrono and co. fight the DD after they fight Lavos, clearly. Savegames are a gameplay feature. the fact that you have to reload a file to get to the Vortexes means nothing in terms of the timeline.

Ridiculous how? Plenty of games have allowed you to load a post-game save and reflect a post-game world. CTDS does not. The fact is the way the battle with the DD  was presented, you face it in a world where the Black Omen  still flies, the future is still bleak, and Lavos is the doorman at 1999.

To make things worse, the  game blatantly acknowledges this. You don't just go through the mini-dungeons and then challenge the DD. You specifically go to the EOT, where Gaspar specifically tells you that the bucket that takes you to the DBT STILL links to the Day of Lavos (and ensuing battle with him). This is to say nothing of the fact that the team officially disbands back to their own eras after Lavos' defeat. Or how about the future vortex gate? That plainly exists in the ruined future.

If, as you suggest, having to load a save after beating Lavos is just a game  mechanic, why would they go out of their way to tell you that the events run parallel the normal end of game events?  Either the team didn't directly experience these events (in canon), or an alternate version of them did that may or may not necessitate factoring a new timeline and therefore may or may not have any impact on Chrono Cross.

To address the above posts, I don't think anything shows them as being able to travel back that precisely (i.e. beating Lavos and then, for no apparent reason, jumping back a couple of days to tackle the vortexes before Lavos' defeat). Short of Entity intervention (like with Lucca's mother, presumably) I see neither a basis for or evidence of this. The best possibility for the events being canon is that the DD caused the vortexes to open prior to the defeat of Lavos. The problem I have with that is simple. If the old timeline is wiped with the defeat of Lavos (especially if it happens in antiquity), how can the  vortexes express themselves in a timeline where Lavos' presence is everywhere (most notably with the future gate)?

[ubermetroid]

Because your understanding of the way time flows is wrong.

Atleast that is what I am thinking.  If the DD is beyond time, it can affect anything it wants.

[Chrono'99]

To address the above posts, I don't think anything shows them as being able to travel back that precisely (i.e. beating Lavos and then, for no apparent reason, jumping back a couple of days to tackle the vortexes before Lavos' defeat). Short of Entity intervention (like with Lucca's mother, presumably) I see neither a basis for or evidence of this. The best possibility for the events being canon is that the DD caused the vortexes to open prior to the defeat of Lavos. The problem I have with that is simple. If the old timeline is wiped with the defeat of Lavos (especially if it happens in antiquity), how can the  vortexes express themselves in a timeline where Lavos' presence is everywhere (most notably with the future gate)?

There's no actual time traveling backward. It's the player's point of view that goes back (when you load the old save file). The characters themselves are not literally traveling back. Compare with Fiona's Forest. When you start the game, at "Day 1", it's a desert. Once Crono's party creates the forest in the Middle Ages, the Crono who is waken up by his mom on Day 1 will see a forest in south Zenan instead of a desert. You don't see what he sees because you're playing as the original, time-traveling Crono, but one version of Crono does get the chance to see the forest immediately after waking up on Day 1.

Aitrus' theory is based on this concept. But yeah, as you point out, it's flawed in that even though the "past" versions of Crono's party could see the Vortices before they defeat Lavos, the fact that the "present" versions of Crono's party defeat Lavos means that the future should be prosperous instead of ruined. So it's flawed after all

I guess the only way this could work is if an actual alternate timeline is involved, which is basically Neku's theory. It's kind of complicated, but it's worth considering IMO.

[Onikage725]

Because your understanding of the way time flows is wrong.

Atleast that is what I am thinking.  If the DD is beyond time, it can affect anything it wants.

I did allow for that in my first post :p
Still, at least as far a analysis here has down, "When a time traveler steps back through time and alters the past, the results of his or her actions are immediately manifested in the future."

Also, the "Discarded Timelines Principle... states that whenever a timeline is altered by a time traveler, a new timeline is created as a result of these changes. The original timeline from that point onward is sent into the Darkness Beyond Time."

It seems odd (and convoluted as a plot device) to assume that the DD could interact with the version of the timeline where he is still present. Shouldn't that time have been cast into the DBT along with him? All of his further impact would have to be on the new timeline.

[art_garfunkel]

The DD does not exist in the DBT until Lavos is defeated, obviously. It is impossible to fight the DD until Lavos has been defeated, due to Time Error. The DBT (containing the Dream Devourer) is subject to Time Error, therefore this entire idea that you can fight the Dream Devourer before Lavos is defeated is absurd.

[Onikage725]

The DD does not exist in the DBT until Lavos is defeated, obviously. It is impossible to fight the DD until Lavos has been defeated, due to Time Error. The DBT (containing the Dream Devourer) is subject to Time Error, therefore this entire idea that you can fight the Dream Devourer before Lavos is defeated is absurd.

Exactly. But since the game expresses the distortions in a realm where Lavos exists (as I said above, the future gate is clearly in the ruined future, and Gaspar is given dialogue specifically acknowledging both Lavos and the DD simultaneously) these events have to either be an alternate timeline (that may or may not be significant) or non-canon. By that, I mean as far as the CT team's interaction. I have no doubt that the plot points expressed where meant to show us some game-bridging material. Dalton coming out of the vortex in 1000AD to instigate a war, Magus pursuing the DD and then reinventing himself after his failed rescue attempt, etc.

So I guess the difference in my opinion is that (and correct me if I misunderstand you) you feel the events happened as shown, but we must take into account limitations of save games and the developers, for whatever reason, not making a new future. I feel that  because they didn't, it either invalidates certain things from being plausible or it showcases severe laziness on the part of the CT DS team. And, giving them benefit of the doubt, I tend to just think that some dramatic license was used to show us some bonus content post-game.

[KebreI]

You know Arty, The theories are just that. and are subject to change to best describe the game. Since as stated the crew witness it BEFORE defeating Lavos yet if this conflicts with are current ideas, we must look at the ideas to find the problem not the game.

[art_garfunkel]

The DD does not exist in the DBT until Lavos is defeated, obviously. It is impossible to fight the DD until Lavos has been defeated, due to Time Error. The DBT (containing the Dream Devourer) is subject to Time Error, therefore this entire idea that you can fight the Dream Devourer before Lavos is defeated is absurd.

Exactly. But since the game expresses the distortions in a realm where Lavos exists (as I said above, the future gate is clearly in the ruined future, and Gaspar is given dialogue specifically acknowledging both Lavos and the DD simultaneously) these events have to either be an alternate timeline (that may or may not be significant) or non-canon. By that, I mean as far as the CT team's interaction. I have no doubt that the plot points expressed where meant to show us some game-bridging material. Dalton coming out of the vortex in 1000AD to instigate a war, Magus pursuing the DD and then reinventing himself after his failed rescue attempt, etc.

So I guess the difference in my opinion is that (and correct me if I misunderstand you) you feel the events happened as shown, but we must take into account limitations of save games and the developers, for whatever reason, not making a new future. I feel that  because they didn't, it either invalidates certain things from being plausible or it showcases severe laziness on the part of the CT DS team. And, giving them benefit of the doubt, I tend to just think that some dramatic license was used to show us some bonus content post-game.

I fail to see what is so hard to accept about Chrono and co. fighting the DD after they defeat Lavos. Why make up a more complicated explanation than what works?

[Dark Serge]

Wow, after having been away for a couple of weeks, I find the Compendium completely renewed. Can't say I don't like the new look, but I'm used to the good ol' Compendium.

Anyway, back to the point; Have there been any new big discoveries since I was away? I mean facts, not speculation. And what happened to Shadow D. Darkman? Did he get... banned?

Glad to see everyone's still in high spirits.