So, what happens to the queen...

[Dark Serge]

I don't see how she could "kill" herself to become part of Lavos. For one Lavos doesn't need her power and tried to destroy her during the Ocean Palace Incident. Afterwards the Queen probably raised the Omen to drain even more power off him. I don't see how he would want to merge with such a woman. And I think it's Lavos who would make that decision, not the queen.

Anyway, nice speculation but it's impossible. If you crush the Omen but take the Gate out in Lavos to the end of time, then is when Gaspar says that. So it's impossible for her to be merged with Lavos then, 'cause according to old man Gaspar she's at peace now.

[ONSLAUGHT]

The most she could do is attempt to merge with Lavos, since she sees him as an immortal being and she probably believes that in doing so she will be immortal as well.

[Shadow D. Darkman]

Hmm... True, but then, why scrap the Omen?

[Xenterex]

I don't see how she could "kill" herself to become part of Lavos. For one Lavos doesn't need her power and tried to destroy her during the Ocean Palace Incident. Afterwards the Queen probably raised the Omen to drain even more power off him. I don't see how he would want to merge with such a woman. And I think it's Lavos who would make that decision, not the queen.

Well Lavos certainly didn't drain Zeal of her powers like she did Magus and he certainly didn't try to kill her when she was standing on him and made the offer to the Prophet to join her.  In fact, he does nothing of a negative nature directly to her in the modified timeline.  How then is it "impossible?"  If there isn't some sort of mutual connection between the two, why doesn't Lavos do anything to the Omen throughout the time eras?  And actually, i would say Lavos needed more power;  after all, he loses.

That's the thing though, Gaspar doesn't say she's at peace until the first phase of Lavos, his shell and imitation form.  Once this form is broken, it may then break the connection that Zeal had with Lavos.    Her connection to Lavos can be seen in 3 lights:

1) Zeal's insanity forces herself onto Lavos as drains him as a means for immortality and power.
2) Lavos is a malefactor and corrupted the queen as a means to destroy her kingdom, or use her somehow.
3) The connection becomes mutual, which Lavos once destroyed, he accepts with purpose.

1 seems to incite conflict and have some holes to it, such as Lavos should be trying to sever the connection, and that Zeal would probably try to reconnect even if the Black Omen is gone (assuming she survives)  2 can fit with the current  game setup as the Omen had the means that Zeal was under his influence, so dead or alive, she'd have regained her humanity once its gone.  However, this still suggests a connection, and one that Zeal could use to try to empower Lavos with, or why else would he still keep her around?

In either event, in order for Zeal to remain alive and have regained her humanity would probably suggest that she did not intend to latch onto Lavos.  If she's dead, it could be forced on either end.  Also, at the end of the fight, Lavos still responds to Zeal's beck and call.  If she were draining Lavos, how else would she call to him if the mammon machine has be dealt with?  She probably isn't able to raise the connection power to a dangerous level that Lavos responds to like he did at the ocean palace.

[Shadow D. Darkman]

I think the truth is a combination of 2 and 1. Lavos' power corrupts the Queen, who in her insanity is self-convinced that Lavos is some kind of god, however, he has no control over her. He doesn't attack her as she is not threatening him. He destroys Zeal because it's leeching his power through the Mammon Machine. He destroyed the world of 1999 A.D. probably because then the residents might pose a potential threat to him. The only inconsistency is that no one knew about Lavos after the Fall Of Zeal until that day, so they might not try to destroy him, but rather study him to learn as much as they can. IDK how he could feel threatened by that.

[SwordFighter_Dago]

Well, I've always thought that, since the Omen's name is Black Dream in Japanese, powerful Chrono characters like the gurus have some sort of living dreams (well, at least Melchior), and the entire game is about memories and dreams (Dream Stone? Green Dream? Entity's Flashbacks?), the Black Omen is nothing more than a dream(nightmare?) created by Lavos. Queen Zeal obviously is a part of it.

Let me explain why. After the entire Zeal/Dalton quest, the Black Omen suddenly appears out of the blue, after Lavos had just gone to sleep again. The Queen also differs slightly from before. Suddenly, she now has the ability to fade and teleport anywhere she wants, but this is apparently limited to the Black Omen. She also exists within every time period after 12,000 BC. She even has the knowledge about Lavos' future eruption in 1999 AD. Now, one may actually say that the Black Omen itself transcends time, but I have some explanation for either possibility.

1) If the Black Omen does indeed transcend time, how then does the Queen know (in 2300 AD) that Lavos had already destroyed the Earth? How would she even know what time period she is in at the moment?
2) The Black Omen not being bound by time could also further explain its strong connection to Lavos' power, since neither one of them are heavily influenced by time's flow.

What I also would like to note is that the Black Omen is filled with mutants, aliens and even a Lavos spawn. They didn't have that kind of technology in Zeal Kingdom. Plus the Mammon Machine, which was already broken and not even designed for combat anyway, was attacking you in some kind of other dimension.

The main thing that actually set me to believe that Zeal and the Omen were dreans was after you defeat Zeal. She would transform back, call out for Lavos and disappear with the Black Omen altogether, after which Lavos arises from the earth. Now, the way they both disappeared (slowly fading away from bottom to top), to me, implied that Lavos awoke from his living dreams, causing them to disappear as he crawled forth from the ground.

BTW, first post.
Hello everyone!

[chrono eric]

1) If the Black Omen does indeed transcend time, how then does the Queen know (in 2300 AD) that Lavos had already destroyed the Earth? How would she even know what time period she is in at the moment?

Man, great post! I never thought about the Black Omen from that angle before. I think I can answer this question of yours. The outside of the Black Omen is somehow physically connected to space and time, that's why it only appears in all time periods after 12,000 BC when it originally arose. The inside of the Black Omen is disconnected from space and time, much like Lavos' pocket dimension. It's likely that the queen would be able to observe the entire timeline and any changes made to it by Crono and co. from within the Black Omen.

So how does she know what time period she's in? Well in 2300 A.D. she actually meets the party outside of the Black Omen. I assume that's the reason why.

[Dark Serge]

Uhh by looking around maybe? She apparently also spent time atop the Omen, and even a blind mole could see that in this time the world was already destroyed by Lavos.

[SwordFighter_Dago]

Uhh by looking around maybe? She apparently also spent time atop the Omen, and even a blind mole could see that in this time the world was already destroyed by Lavos.

She can still see in what time period she's in. For example, enter the Black Omen in 1000 AD and she will say that its just 999 years before Lavos destroys the world. If done in another time, for example 600 AD, she will say that its 1399 years. She obviously knows in what time period she is when facing the party (by the way, she says this while standing inside the Black Omen).

But I'm not arguing wether or not the Black Omen transcends time. I believe it does, to some extent. I'm actually saying that the Black Omen, aka Black Dream, is exactly as its name implies, and so are Queen Zeal and the Mammon Machine.

[chrono eric]

Ah I thought you meant specifically if you attempt to enter the Black Omen in 2300 A.D.

Well, if you think about it, because changes that you make inside the Black Omen in the future are there in the past when you enter it, it clearly transcends time. But whenever Crono and co. actually enter the Black Omen and wander around, perhaps it temporarily is in sync with whatever time period they are in and time passes normally in the Black Omen as well as outside of it. If you think about it, it wouldn't make sense any other way (same with Lavos' pocket dimension), because from the perspective of someone in the timeline looking inside the Black Omen, time would appear to be stopped inside of it since the inside apparently transcends time.

[Xenterex]

It's not so much a matter of "if the omen transcends time," we're told it does. 

Queen Zeal: Behold, my pretties! Destiny, in its most brutal form. All the dreams that might have been. All the happiness and sorrow you might have experienced. Gone forever!!! For you there will be no tomorrow! The Black Omen transcends time and space, waiting for Lavos to awaken! Destiny has led you here. And here you shall rest forever, unless you defeat me, and smash the Omen! Perhaps I can persuade Lavos to share his dreams to you! Did I say dreams? I meant his eternal nightmare!

There is even a mention of dream here, but I think the context (how its used) leads more to say that it means plans or ambitions and not so much a literal 'dream'.  However, bringing up this connection to dreams does indeed bring up that there is another connection here.  Perhaps the Omen itself is actually a manifestation of Lavos 'dreams'.  Its transcendence to time, or lack of effect on it is because the Omen is only a 'dream'.  There are no ambitions or 'real' weapons and threats with the Omen.  It could effectively be just a byproduct from Lavos' intervention on Zeal, and possibly being contaminated by the dreamstone, or cause a reaction from the attack on the Mammon Machine from the masamune.

Zeal herself could have been dead, or incapacitated since her connection/corruption to Lavos, the corrupt Zeal we see is a form like that of Masa or Mune.  That could be why she has Schala do the pendant work instead of doing it herself.  (just like if masa and mune could fix themselves, they would've) Therefore she isn't a threat to Lavos, or even draining him, because she's 'there', but not really 'there.'

The call from the Omen then brings Lavos simply because he 'wakes' up, and he's grumpy.

[Fireseal]

I say the bitch died man... THE BITCH DIED!!!

lol

All joking aside. Queen Zeal just seems to me like she's a religious fanatic. I don't think Lavos has willingly corrupted her, since it has always been sleeping until someone very annoying wakes it up and it destroys everything. She simply found out about Lavos, found out its potential, but I don't believe she has ever communicated with the thing and made a deal with it. Her name matches with her personality. She sensed a powerful force, and thought to communicate with it and gain a portion of its power. Then she began to act overzealous and would go to extreme measures to see the thing with her own eyes, even at the cost of her own children and her kingdom. I mean, I do think she had the corruption within her the whole time. But being around Lavos causes corruption? I think not. Then our heroes would turn out to be the same as Queen Zeal.

This is how I see it;

Something bothers Lavos and it notices that it's coming from the surface of the planet.
It wakes up and wants to destroy everything.
It appears in front of people that were in the same room as the Mammon Machine.
Zeal jumps on top of it and starts to blabber some useless dialogue.
Lavos is like 'wtf mate? bah I won't bother with her. But the blue haired dude looks like the strongest of all of them.'
Lavos starts to drain Magus' energy.
Magus tries to beat him with a red... stick... (wtf SE? should've changed the graphics in the DS)
Lavos is like 'pfff what a panzy, and who is this woman on top of me again? oh wait look, this red haired punk is in front of me'
Lavos kills Crono.
Schala sends everyone out of harms way.
Lavos presumably notices Schala's power and starts to merge with her as soon as he is defeated by the party.
Lavos, in order to just not deal with Queen Zeal, it humors her and grants her the Black Omen.
Queen Zeal is chasing an impossible goal and thinking that worshiping Lavos will grant her immortality.


So like all religious fanatics, in the end, they all die for nothing.

[Shadow D. Darkman]

Well said.

IMO, the red stick might really be a Dreamstone blade (like the Grandleon) that Magus originally intended to use to destroy the Mammon Machine when the time was right. Because Crono used the Grandleon to attempt to destroy the machine, he ended up using it on Lavos, which failed.

[Fireseal]

I never thought about how it may have been a dreamstone weapon. But come on SE could've made it not look like a stick.. Maybe it was the Nyoi-bo? lol that's would be a laugh...

[Dark Serge]

But how else could they draw it really... The character sprites are so small, it's impossible to get a lot of details. Besides, Magus originally uses a scythe. And you can even hardly tell that from his battle animations. So I wouldn't be surprised if it was just a pretty awesome weapon.

Or... It could be a lightsaber.