What I'm talking about: The Cross fiasco

[Dark Serge]

Nah, but a reliable source for all these statements would be nice.

[mav]

Here's CC's cost: check the first item and Final Fantasy Chronicles' cost check the first item here too. As far as FFVII being over $60: scroll down to number 11, and here is its sales figures.

I mean, just check the prices on Amazon or eBay, you'll see how the price of SNES games differs in comparison to Playstation games.

[Dark Serge]

I think that's more because PSX games can be ripped and copied for free, and SNES games can only be played on an emulator if it's downloaded. You can't put it on a cart.

I don't think it has anything to do with particular games really

And everyone knows FFVII is overhyped

[The Black Wind]

Chrono Cross is nine years old, right? Who the fuck is gonna pay the full price for it now? It's on an outdated system and there really isn't a demand for it right now.

You'd be surprised. When a product is no longer in production, there are some demented fucks out there who would pay just about anything for it. I've seen mint copies of FFVII going for $600 on eBay constantly, and people were actually buying that shit.

Besides, sales don't indicate a damn thing about the game's quality. Halo is one of the most financially successful franchises in gaming history, and frankly I can't help but find it a decent but extremely overrated series at best. To me it's just the game that saved Microsoft from tanking in the gaming industry.

[mav]

Look, I agree that people would pay ridiculous prices for no apparent reason, but we seem to rule that out as a possibility for the price CT's going at.

I think that's more because PSX games can be ripped and copied for free, and SNES games can only be played on an emulator if it's downloaded. You can't put it on a cart.

Fuck if I know why, but there are still PSX games going for high prices. And yes FFVII is overhyped, but it still makes good money. This topic shouldn't be revolving around prices or current costs though, right? I just wanted to provide those financial figures for anyone who was curious.

My thought was that we shouldn't use CC's current price as an indication of its failure. Somehow a $16.99 copy of Cross indicates that Kato just bull shat this game.

[Dark Serge]

You say that yourself and yet there you go again. Anyway like I said FFVII is overhyped. It can't live up to Chrono Cross, but the hype creates that illusion.

[The Black Wind]

Final Fantasy VII was the third RPG I've ever played, and it became my favorite game to this day. I could care less about the hype.

[mav]

You say that yourself and yet there you go again. Anyway like I said FFVII is overhyped. It can't live up to Chrono Cross, but the hype creates that illusion.

Right you are, FFVII has a hype factor (all FF games do), that's why I think the whole price argument is worthless. Of course, I decided to be a sarcastic smart ass to point it out, but honestly I do think it's irrelevant.

In my opinion the Review Scores are a better indication of how good the game is: compare CC's perfect 10 from Gamespot to the 9.5 that FFVII got from Gamespot.

[Dark Serge]

Final Fantasy VII was the third RPG I've ever played, and it became my favorite game to this day. I could care less about the hype.

Yeah, it would be very boring if everyone was the same. I think Chrono Cross beats FFVII in graphics, music, characters, and story, you think that vica versa. No point trying to argue about it.

[chrono eric]

Yeah, it would be very boring if everyone was the same. I think Chrono Cross beats FFVII in graphics, music, characters, and story, you think that vica versa. No point trying to argue about it.

I think the gameplay in Cross is better too, rather than the typical FF wash n' rinse battle system used since time immemorial.

[The Black Wind]

Final Fantasy VII was the third RPG I've ever played, and it became my favorite game to this day. I could care less about the hype.

Yeah, it would be very boring if everyone was the same. I think Chrono Cross beats FFVII in graphics, music, characters, and story, you think that vica versa. No point trying to argue about it.

Graphics, absolutely. There's nothing worse than shitty 3D character models, especially when they've aged terribly. Honestly, they should have gone the Star Ocean 2 route and used sprites, which are immortal.

Edit: Just so that no one gets confused, I was indeed referring to FFVII. I'll defend everything in that game except for graphics and just plain awful, awful translation errors (i.e. "This guy are sick", "Safer Sephiroth").

As far as battle system goes, it can't be touched in terms of customization. With just about endless materia combinations, you could have an unstoppable party if you played it smart (Final Attack/Phoenix + Knights of the Round/HP or MP Absorb + W-Summon + Counter/Mime x all 3 party members = You will rape everything in your path with a blue whale's dick, I promise). Problem is, between 9 playable characters, the only real difference between them was their Limit Breaks. As long as you had Cloud (which was mandatory), it didn't matter who else was with you.

[Xenterex]

Right you are, FFVII has a hype factor (all FF games do), that's why I think the whole price argument is worthless

Actually, at this point, I'd say the price factor has served its purposes. Part of the reason I brought it up was a direct number comparison to all the comments about CC being a 10, high 9, etc.  Numbers are only so effective to a point. 

My thought was that we shouldn't use CC's current price as an indication of its failure. Somehow a $16.99 copy of Cross indicates that Kato just bull shat this game.

Emphasis added.  While I am taking this line outside of the author's wanted point, the statement itself what I am going for.  Threads pertaining to waiting for Kato to clarify this, or canonize that are simply silly.  Based on what I've read about Kato's story contributions to various other games, and his role pertaining to the successful ones, part of what has happened to Cross is that Kato is simply out of his element here.  Using the Procyon Studio interview for reference here, when he makes the mention of 'their' Chrono being different from his Chrono really does say quite a bit about the project in the first place.  Looking at the credits and works involved for Trigger, it wasn't his Chrono in the first place, so of course there are going to be differences between fan perception and his dimension. Another factor in this  (I could've added this to the "enmity discussion") is that the changes between the two games are (probably not intentionally though) related to the negative association he has with the Trigger project.  The emphasis on enmity on the game, is his own.

Right you are, FFVII has a hype factor (all FF games do), that's why I think the whole price argument is worthless.

  Its not just final fantasy that has a larger price value going for it.  Suikoden, a minor player by comparison, also has a large price scaling factor for the better games in its series, and even more beyond that.  There is a hype factor (particularly in 'collectors' value')  but there also is a demand factor for playing the game that effects the price.  Its funny that this discussion has had more of an emphasis on FF7 in particular because the more I look into CC, the more I get the feel that Kato pretty much sold FF7 to those that don't like FF7.  I'll save the direct comparisons between the two games for my next post (don't have time to post it atm.)  However, those of you who have played both, and feel you want to make a comment about it,  take some time and think about the game factors under the gilding of both games; things about what drives the plot, what roles each character portrays, what happens to characters as a progression of the plot, and so on.

[The Entity]

I'll defend everything in that game except for graphics and just plain awful, awful translation errors (i.e. "This guy are sick", "Safer Sephiroth").

And my personal favorite: "I've got the wrong person." (Said by Tifa if you try teaching her someone else's Level 4 Limit Break.)

[mav]

Actually, at this point, I'd say the price factor has served its purposes. Part of the reason I brought it up was a direct number comparison to all the comments about CC being a 10, high 9, etc.  Numbers are only so effective to a point. 

I agree Xenterex, numbers are limited in how effective they can be, but usually the editors who rate these games are supposed to be unbiased and if they are--they don't give in to hype, price, namesake, etc.--then the ratings they've written are valid. Now, I suppose we can throw out the ratings factor due to the fact that we cannot fully ascertain whether the editors were biased or not. And as far as CC's current price goes, I honestly don't understand why it's so low, especially if you compare it to Suikoden. I don't know how the gaming industry works, but couldn't this be an effect of a lack of copies? Perhaps there are more copies of CC out there (man, I'm really helping your argument here), and that's why Suikoden sells for such a high price--there's a collector's value, like you said. Now, with price and ratings out of the way, it's become a matter of opinion.

But I'll state the facts anyway. Like I said earlier, Kato outlined a plot after Horii wanted a time travel game, other writers filled in the story. Now, CC was created after Kato was asked to make a game similar to RD and he chose that project over doing a CT:2. Why didn't he make CT:2? He didn't want to alienate people who hadn't played CT, he didn't want to repeat the same concepts of CT, and he wanted to wrap up Schala's story, thus we got CC instead of CT:2. Ultimately the project was the working of his own mind, but he was asked to make something similar to RD, it's not his fault that some of us would have preferred CT:2.

[Xenterex]

I agree Xenterex, numbers are limited in how effective they can be, but usually the editors who rate these games are supposed to be unbiased and if they are--they don't give in to hype, price, namesake, etc.--then the ratings they've written are valid. 

Actually, I was more referring to how numbers shape, and can be a foundation (rather than subjective experience and research) of how a person creates their own opinion of a game.

Perhaps there are more copies of CC out there (man, I'm really helping your argument here), and that's why Suikoden sells for such a high price--there's a collector's value, like you said. Now, with price and ratings out of the way, it's become a matter of opinion. 

It pretty much is that there are more copies of CC out there than many other games.  As I've mentioned before, the isn't a thing as a 'good deal' in the world of business, products have a value based what people are willing to pay for it. or at least what they can convince people to pay for it.  The 'overstock' of CC could be a result of people, such as myself, who returned their cop(ies) to the distributor after contributing to the sales value figures that the game advertises, (I was two of that 1.5 million) and it wasn't successfully resold, or an overproduction of the game based on misreading the demands for their product.  In either case, the price is still affected by demand to own and play that particular game.  As you sad, with rating and sales aside, all that is left is opinion. And so far, one particular opinion is that the demand to own/play CC is lower than many comparable products, or even the games own strategy guide.

Ultimately the project was the working of his own mind, but he was asked to make something similar to RD, it's not his fault that some of us would have preferred CT:2.

No, but the writing blemishes of the game and its story (to which is the source of the most distaste in my mouth) is.  Compare it to a particular restaurant.  Many people may want to order the 'salmon surprise' (that in this case is beloved because of how its different than other salmon dishes, and yet is still salmon) but the chef instead surprises them with raw fish.  He could've made it into sushi, a quality and safe dish, but its just a raw fish that is different than salmon, though it was dressed similarly.  Some eat it, and other don't.  Of those that eat it, some like it, and others get sick.  While those that did like it praised the taste and the chef for surprising them with such, the dish does not earn a place on the restaurant's menu.