Chrono Trigger or Chrono Cross (or both?)

[Dark Serge]

Holy jeez. Here we go again.

Anyway, you say that Ayla's character development is "more then you can say for half the Cross cast". Well it's not really much development at all. They could have just as easily gotten Dreamstone off another prehistoric guy. And really, they could have followed those footsteps without Ayla accompanying them. It's not like they're blind or something. She displays compassion....... I..... guess? Your point being? Every character in Cross does that.

And nah, Kid is not the only one who cares about Serge. If you'd paid attention you'd know that. Why do you think they all join up with Serge in the first place? Razzly, for example, one of the supposedly minor characters, leaves her people behind after it just got trashed just because she wants to help Serge out so much. I could seriously write up motivations for every character, but there's the encyclopedia for that already. Everyone has his personal reason to go with Serge, and over time they grow close to him. Ofcourse you don't see it for every of them 'cause you can't have em all in your party. But especially Karsh's last line if you beat him with the Time Devourer is something that really got me. He's a guy you meet from the beginning and you learn about his past and future. And there's more of those characters.

As for character variation; there was plenty imo. Yeah you could equip any element on any character. But that's a lame excuse. Every character had his own damn accent, for heaven's sake. Every character looked totally different (not like Trigger where Toriyama's creations all look the same), every character animated, walked and ran differently. Even if some characters had an annoying accent, that doesn't erase the fact that there's more variation then in Trigger.

And nah I'm not saying Kato is wrong or anything. I'm sure he wanted Magus in it. But I think he exaggerated when he said that. If you think for yourself you'll find this too. Because Magus would have perfectly fit right in there next to Serge. The amount of characters is not much of an excuse.

I'm not trying to convince you to like Cross either. I just get the feeling you don't take it for what it really is.

[maggiekarp]

Anyway, you say that Ayla's character development is "more then you can say for half the Cross cast". Well it's not really much development at all.

Wait, are you admitting that at least half the Cross cast had less development than Ayla?

Ayla's past is a lot more hidden than the other characters, I bet a lot of you don't know that she found and raised Kino. A lot of her character comes from her actions and what she says, which were all interchangeable things for the characters in Cross. Accents and backstory/motivation completely unrelated to the quest at hand do not a deep character make, it comes from seeing them in action. The characters in Cross weren't alive, they were equipment.

There's more "variation" in the design of Cross characters because there's a heaping pile of them. No one's gonna debate whether or not they look cool, because everyone knows the graphics and design were one of the good points of Cross, but they aren't really relevant in a "which has the better story and characters" argument since you could switch the sprites for Orcha and Orlha and not even tell the difference in play.

If Magus was in the game you know everyone would play as the Radical Dreamers awesome combo. Look at how most folks already keep Glenn or Norris in the party over whatsisface.

I take Cross as a beautiful mess.

[Shadow D. Darkman]

Cross was an excellent game in terms of storyline, gameplay, hell, the graphics were good.

[Dark Serge]

Anyway, you say that Ayla's character development is "more then you can say for half the Cross cast". Well it's not really much development at all.

Wait, are you admitting that at least half the Cross cast had less development than Ayla?

No I'm not, how did you get that idea...

Ayla's past is a lot more hidden than the other characters, I bet a lot of you don't know that she found and raised Kino. A lot of her character comes from her actions and what she says, which were all interchangeable things for the characters in Cross. Accents and backstory/motivation completely unrelated to the quest at hand do not a deep character make, it comes from seeing them in action. The characters in Cross weren't alive, they were equipment.

Raised Kino huh? Couldn't find that anywhere in the game. Care to give a source? And how the hell is that relevant to the main plot or quest at hand? Ayla doesn't have any development related to the quest at hand yet you badmouth Cross characters because of this very thing. And to be honest, most of them did have some development with the quest at hand. Not all of them, but for a lot of them you saw that they desired a wish from the Frozen Flame, which in turn had something to do with their past. You say a past and future don't make a great character, but supplying some Dreamstone does?

There's more "variation" in the design of Cross characters because there's a heaping pile of them. No one's gonna debate whether or not they look cool, because everyone knows the graphics and design were one of the good points of Cross, but they aren't really relevant in a "which has the better story and characters" argument since you could switch the sprites for Orcha and Orlha and not even tell the difference in play.

Orcha and Orlha have different ways of talking and walking, they both have different pasts and different personalities. I can easily tell the difference between any Cross character.

If Magus was in the game you know everyone would play as the Radical Dreamers awesome combo. Look at how most folks already keep Glenn or Norris in the party over whatsisface.

I don't think so. Because Cross has a lot of characters there's at least some of them everyone can identify themselves with. And these will probably become the characters of their choice. Even if Magus was in Chrono Cross, anyone who didn't like him in Trigger wouldn't have him around this time either.

[Romana]

EDIT: @Black Wind

Long post is long. Fails due to boredom and lack of excitement.

This site thrives on lengthy discussion and debates, it's why it's so well developed and long-lasting.

[Boo the Gentleman Caller]

I chose both because I really truly like both games.  I like them for different reasons, however.  They are both masterpieces, in my opinion, and trying to choose one is like trying to choose one parent over another (or one child from another).

[Shadow D. Darkman]

This site thrives on lengthy discussion and debates, it's why it's so well developed and long-lasting.

Those kinds of long posts are fine. I was referring to posts like his that are long. They fail for the reasons I stated in that post.

[The Black Wind]

I voted both b/c they're both really good games. If I had to pick only one of them, though, I'd pick Trigger.

The sway was too close for me to just say "Trigger FTW" and be done here.

I loved Cross despite the hardships I went through, but I love Trigger better b/c of the neat shit you can do that you didn't do in Cross.

EDIT: @Black Wind

Long post is long. Fails due to boredom and lack of excitement.

You're a complete fucking joke, Shadow. At least your friend is capable of debate. If all you can do is regurgitate what other people say, you're better off not posting. You fail at life, now get out of my thread.

IRONY
                            ~V_Translanka

[Shadow D. Darkman]

...get out of my thread.

Huh, when were you given mod powers? Voting both and loving CC for what it has was not someone else's opinion. It's my own.

Speaking of mods, can someone do us all a favor and hit Shade Blackman with the BanHammer? I don't like getting ripped off.

EDIT:

REPORT'D.

[x_XTacTX_x]

...get out of my thread.

Huh, when were you given mod powers? Voting both and loving CC for what it has was not someone else's opinion. It's my own.

Speaking of mods, can someone do us all a favor and hit Shade Blackman with the BanHammer? I don't like getting ripped off.

EDIT:

REPORT'D.

Fuck dude, I've been trying to be nice to you in your entirety on the forum but this is just getting fucking ridiculous. You are one of the biggest acceptance-thriving tools I've ever had the displeasure of talking to. I could count the number of meaningful, sensible posts you've made on one hand, with the rest of them being childlike spam or an attempt at trying to hard to be funny or get attention from another user. I find it hard to believe that you're seventeen as your profile says, because you act like a butthurt preteen. It is very, very hard to get me to tell someone off without keeping respect in mind, but you've accomplished it. So please, either stop logging down every thread you see with meaningless, trivial posts now or get the fuck out of the Chrono Compendium.

[Xenterex]

little sidetracking here.  Its internet courtesy to refrain from flaming, especially in discussion threads.  If you have the uncontrollable urge to have to chide someone directly, that's what PMs are for.  Leave the collateral damage to a minimum.
---------------

There's more "variation" in the design of Cross characters because there's a heaping pile of them. No one's gonna debate whether or not they look cool, because everyone knows the graphics and design were one of the good points of Cross, but they aren't really relevant in a "which has the better story and characters" argument

 

Cross variation in character designs (and mannerisms) combined with the combat systems customization versatility
are simple game gimmicks designed to allow people someone that they can like to allow themselves to associate with the story.  As far as 'characterization' goes in a literal sense, there's been some of the general misunderstandings portrayed here.  The 'past' isn't necessarily a part of a character at all.  Many characters/protagonists don't have mentioned pasts because it doesn't necessarily pertain to the story, and they still work.  Does Crono have a past?  He has a Mom, that presumably gave birth to him, and he's been raised somehow between then and the 'now' of the story, so yes he has a past.  Do we need to know it? No, its not included because it doesn't effect anything in the game.  Do we know what happened to ANY of the Trigger characters between a few key segments?  Did they go to school?  Does the world have an observable religion for them to follow on a given day, and if so, what is that day?  Who cares.  Those are details that don't pertain to the characters as they are involved in the story.  One of the hardest, and yet most rewarding, processes any story goes through is cropping.  The thing that gives Trigger more characterization than Cross is how its characters are apart of a role archetype, and also how they challenge it.  And we get this from concise scenes.

As a character what is Crono?  He is the protagonist, or at least initially.  He's a flat character (lazy youth who is brave,)  yet flat is not a derogatory statement in how Crono is used as a character.  I propose that Crono is not excessively dynamic because he is a symbolic character; and he symbolizes 'time'.  Time*, "progress as affecting people and things" (and named for it) is exactly what Crono does.  He is given a lead role initially because he's a flat, or stable surface, to allow the audience to see the change that occurs through the other characters, particularly in his death, and recovery.  He is the progress of how the other dynamic, more rounded, characters are viewed in their initial archetype, and in how they change it; as a means that drives the story.

Even Ayla works into this system. An apparent flat character designed to be and acts on strength.  Given her highlight periods, she is the protagonist of the past.  Once the past portions are completed (because the focus in on what Lavos does, and not so much did) she does take a bit of a step down, and she's a 'guardian'.  However, in her 'flat' characterization, she has purpose and even change.  Her conflict with Azla both defines and breaks her philosophy in life.  This change is her philosophy is reflected in her role to the parties struggle against Lavos.  There isn't another caveman the party can use other than Ayle because of the role she fills as 'strongest' in her dynamic contribution to the game and story.

I could go on in this capacity, but needless to say that is one of the reasons why I like Trigger more than Cross; its characters have 'character' in relation to the story, and not just 'detail'.  Despite its character design versatility, aimed for everyone to find someone to relate to, they missed a portion.

[The Black Wind]

...get out of my thread.

Huh, when were you given mod powers? Voting both and loving CC for what it has was not someone else's opinion. It's my own.

Speaking of mods, can someone do us all a favor and hit Shade Blackman with the BanHammer? I don't like getting ripped off.

EDIT:

REPORT'D.

I didn't realize that it required mod powers to create a thread.

Anyway, I really don't give a raccoon's ass whether you like or love Chrono Cross. This is where you and I are different. Even if I hated CC with a passion when I played it 8 years ago, I haven't antagonized anyone who doesn't agree with me.  I'm not trying to get you to change sides, and quite frankly I don't want you to because I'd prefer not to be associated with pretentious morons that don't respect others' opinions. When I first said that CC was a piece of shit, I was attacked for not explaining why. When I explained why, I was attacked for posting off-topic. Now I'm posting on-topic, and I'm not entertaining enough? You're so pathetic that it raises the bar for entertainment to a level that I can only aspire to achieve.

Dark Serge: I'm going to call it a day and simply agree to disagree on this issue for now. Perhaps I won't hate CC as much if I give it a more recent playthrough and appreciate it for what it is rather than what my expectations were. Fair enough and to be honest, I was planning on doing that anyway because it's series canon. Although you started off arrogant, at least you were mature enough to actually debate with me on the issue rather than spout utter nonsense. I'll respect that much.

[BROJ]

Shadow, you're an asshole. If I have to see you, of all people, bashing people's thoroughness and saying crap like this:

EDIT: @Black Wind

Long post is long. Fails due to boredom and lack of excitement.

I'm going to call for a popular census to remove your vexing, banal, erratic and crappy 4-chan reference spewing account.

Shape up, and don't even try to take the high moral ground.

BTW, I feel you should apologize to The Black Wind, whether he cares or not, for being a jerk.

[Daniel Krispin]

I just must say, that's an interesting result to see, and I wouldn't have expected that before I clicked submit on the poll. This being the Compendium, I would have guessed the majority to be for both, yet to have Cross higher than Trigger? Unexpected and interesting. I know there are some that do prefer it. Personally, I'm always torn, for which I selected both. As I see it, in terms of music, both rank highly, though I think Trigger has a more classic sound to it, whilst Cross holds the emotional ground. Character design I'd definitely have to give to Cross... I was never a major fan of Toiyrama's style. Just an opinion on that one. Character development... I'd have to go with Cross. I know, I know, there is a multiplicity of characters that do nothing in Cross, yet for those central characters of Cross, I think the development is greater than that of Trigger. Art design, can't pick. Storyline... have to go Trigger on that one. And so on, which in the end divides the line rather down the middle. My big question is, and my great hope, will the third game, whatever it may be named in eventuality, cause the majority to see it with the same equality?

After all, what you see here is a rare thing. Judging by the results, Cross is at least as well liked, if not better, than Trigger. That means one of the best RPGs ever made had a sequal that was even better? Tell me how often THAT happens. Not just in the video game world, but in anything. Even the Odyssey wasn't as good as the Iliad... right?

[The Black Wind]

A stunning development, indeed... The people have chosen, and they love both games. I was actually hoping for a bit more finality from this poll between CT and CC, but alas. I suppose it really wasn't fair to expect everyone to choose between the two games without hesitation.