Dalton (Post-DS Revision) [DS Spoilers Included]

[Shadow D. Darkman]

Wasn't Plasma that thing the Giga Gaia opened the battle with? That blue ball with those creepy black things flying around inside?

[The Black Wind]

Dalton has the potential to be an awesome main antagonist in a third Chrono game, should it happen. Imagine what the Zenan Mainland has become over the years since Guardia's downfall, or what Dalton is planning.

[Shadow D. Darkman]

Maybe the CT crew from the Present is shown to be alive (Lucca is a maybe, but Crono and Marle's fates are currently unknown, so maybe they're still alive) and teams up with Serge (fresh from the Time Devourer battle, maybe a week or two) to overthrow Dalton and restore Guardia.

[Dark Serge]

I still have a hunch that Guardia somehow survived and restored at least a portion of their kingdom somewhere. My reason for this is still the General Kid ending. Even though the New Game+ endings are non-canon and have almost no relevance, Kid says something interesting. After acquiring the Dragon Tear from Lynx she says she will overthrow Porre and Guardia. Did she just not know about the Fall of Guardia, or did Guardia make a comeback? Then again, at Hermit's Hideaway Radius says "...much like Guardia once was...", meaning that Guardia is no more. But here it is also possible Radius lacked information. All of this is quite unsure, hence why it's just a hunch of mine.

At any rate, I don't see why Serge would hold interest in restoring a kingdom he has nothing to do with. But it would be nice to see both him, Kid, and some other CC characters back, along with the CT cast.

[The Black Wind]

That would be pretty interesting, actually. I would bring back the elemental system from Cross (because let's face it, the 4 in Trigger just wasn't enough) and have one character per element each with their own unique attacks and a shitload of double and triple techs. I've already got a sweet line-up in my head for the main party:

Crono (Yellow), Marle (Blue), Magus (Black), Serge (White), Kid (Red), and Glenn (Green).

Crono would be the main character and the game would start with the Fall of Guardia so that we know exactly what happened to who and when from 1005 A.D. to 1020 A.D. -- the end of Chrono Cross.

[Dark Serge]

That would be cool, but personally I would replace Glenn with Karsh 

[The Black Wind]

True. Karsh was awesome -- definitely my favorite among the Dragoons. But, one of the reasons that I was a big fan of Glenn was because he was pretty much the modern-day Frog (hence the name). Not to mention dual-wielding two Einlanzers was fucking sweet. Definitely a tough call to make.

[justin3009]

The thing that gets me.  If Dalton conquered Guardia, then..what happened to him after?  He's not really mentioned anymore ._.

[Chocobo_Fan]

Hmm yeah indeed I think Dalton is certainly capable enough, as I've stated numerous times. If he could defeat Chrono and Marle, doubtful, but possible I think. Yes they are strong, but so is Dalton.

Capable enough? I don't know about that. Even Once-King Dalton, while pretty powerful, falls to his knees pretty fast against my party of Crono, Glenn, and Janus. (Which is pretty much identical to a party of Crono, Marle, and Lucca, when you think about it...) And in all honesty, if Crono can defeat Lavos by himself, (talking about getting the Developer's Ending in the beginning of the game here) then I certainly think he can beat Dalton one-on-one. Plus, he likely has Marle with him, if not Lucca as well...

Also, Plasma is Lightning II lookalike, not Luminaire.

Let me just sum up what I think are his strong points, just so it's clear:

- He has influence and is competent
When Chrono & Co arrived in Zeal it was clear that Dalton had been in charge of the militia there for a long time. That must mean he does his job well and knows how to hold influence and intimidation on people. Also strongly seen when he takes Schala. I thought that was a very cool moment with Dalton. Furthermore, in the construction of the Ocean Palace, he was the one that kept all the Earthbound slaves in a row.

He has influence yes, but likely because Zeal decided to put him there as a general... The guy's a hot-headed jerk, I doubt people would enjoy serving under him. Even with his magic, he'd have a hard time rising in the ranks of Porre thanks to his temper. Also... Dalton, competent? I beg to differ. The guy got sucked into his own gate. I mean, seriously. And he likely kept the Earthbound slaves in line through fear rather than competence.

- He has knowledge
He watches over the Blackbird when Chrono arrives, and it's also said he was the man that oversaw the construction of the Ocean Palace. In addition, he recognized the Epoch immediately as Belthasar's creation and engineered wings and lasers on it, and he could control it quite well.

He watches over the Blackbird yes, but he did not design it. Also, I think you would recognize someone's work if you saw their design blueprints and it matched perfectly... >.> Doesn't take a genius to figure it out if they've already seen the blueprints. And no, he did not engineer the new stuff onto the Epoch, random Daltonites did that. Oh, he probably told them what to add, yes, but when do we ever seeing him actually working on the Epoch? That's right, never. We just see Daltonites crowded around the Epoch, presumably working on it, while Dalton just sits in the back, laughs maniacally, and snaps at them to hurry up. So no, it does not seem like he can be credited for having "engineering prowess".

- He is strong
Dalton has many strengths in combat as well. He can summon at least two Golems at once, and probably more. Imagine what Guardia soldiers could do when he just summons five Golems at a time. They would be outmatched already. He can also summon a Golem Overlord and knows strong magic spells, like Luminaire.

"He is strong" -- Haha, no. Let me see him go one-on-one with Lavos and win, then I'll admit he's strong. Like I said, Once-King Dalton was far easier than Lavos. I had no trouble with him whatsoever. Also, he can cast decently powerful magic yes, but no, he cannot cast Luminaire, like I said earlier in this post. The trio can cast way more powerful magic. And since when is being able to summon golems a measure of strength? Crono can annihilate anything in his path with holy light. Dalton can hide behind piles of rocks with clown faces. To the average soldier they'd be tough yes, but if it ever came to that the trio could just step in, blast the golems to pieces, and the soldiers could continue their defense.

Crono/The Trio >>>>> Dalton.

The only way he could even have a chance of overthrowing Guardia is if he suddenly got a whole lot smarter and decided to distract Crono and Marle (and possibly Lucca) so they would be absent while the Porre army comes in and ransacks the place. Dalton would likely be killed in the process, of course, because of my above statement, but there isn't really any other way... Guardia simply cannot fall if Crono and Marle are there. With Luminaire, Crono is basically his own tank with twice as much firepower, durability, and mobility, and Marle could simply be spamming Cures everywhere, not to mention Haste and Arise...

I don't see why you think Dalton is so amazing, Dark Serge. The guy got sucked into his own gate, was defeated at the hands of Crono and co. no less than three times, and his a complete hothead. Like earlier Compendium theorists have said, Dalton lacks the cunning, intelligence, and finesse to take down the Kingdom of Guardia.

And I'm pretty sure Lynx offed Lucca, didn't he? That's what I got... Though we never see her body, so maybe she fled...? It doesn't seem like Lucca to abandon a burning orphanage full of kids, though. Not to mention that Lynx (while pretending to be Serge) talks about "avenging" Lucca... I'm pretty sure she's dead. :( Hopefully that's somehow fixed in the Ideal timeline, but that's likely just wishful thinking...

Now Crono and Marle, that's still anyone's guess. :/

Also, Crono's Color would be White, not Yellow... >.>

@ Justin: I don't think it was 100% confirmed that Dalton would be the one responsible for the Fall by the time Cross was made. *shrug* No one can really say for sure. Maybe if SE remakes CC, there might be a reference to Dalton somewhere...

[Dark Serge]

Yeah you're going a bit out of context here. The reason that Chrono can defeat Lavos 1vs1 is gameplay element. It has nothing to do with canon. Why the hell would he even need Marle and other people if he could do it alone? Don't confuse story with gameplay.

Now back to Dalton's strength's.

And why did Zeal decide to put him as general? Seriously, Zeal had enormous standards, even going as far as to using the Earthbound as their personal slaves. They wouldn't just allow any goofball to become the general of THEIR ARMY. And as we can see during the arc where Serge saves Riddel, Porre has hotheaded jerks like that. As long as he has power and intimidation, it would be easy for him to become a high ranker. And yeah he got sucked into his own gate. He screwed up for a time. And? Magus got owned when he summoned Lavos and got sucked into his gate. People make mistakes. It happens. Doesn't mean they're imcompetent.

He never once saw the blueprints of the Epoch. It's impossible. Only Belthasar would have those. And yet he could tell immediately that Epoch was made by Belthasar. And if he told the Daltonites what to do, he has the knowledge, right? He just doesn't wanna get his hands dirty.

And yeah he is strong. He's the one controlling the Golems, he's not hiding behind them and he's not afraid to fight on his own. Don't forget you're supposed to lose to the Golem the first time around. And you're also drawing gameplay into this again. Magus got owned by Lavos during the Ocean Palace. Yet if you use codes to get Magus single into your party you can still defeat Lavos. Strange huh?

Dalton is clever and strong. He's not an idiot. Just because he screwed up once and is defeated THREE ON ONE doesn't make him a weakling.

[maggiekarp]

Dalton is a glorified pool boy. He's not in control of an army, he got demoted to security because a complete stranger one-upped him, and none of his underlings respect him. They're happy when you beat him!

He's not clever, he's a man-child with some beasties he can summon, and the game itself goes out of its way to make him a humorous, "can you believe this guy?" character. He gets all red-faced and uses gas as a last attack.


I wouldn't mind him giving technology to Porre, and maybe that tipping the scales a bit. They just never showed why Porre would go to war with Guardia in the first place.

[Dark Serge]

A complete stranger that somehow could exactly tell what would happen in the future with matching results. Nobody else could have rivaled that.

Uhh yeah I could sum up all the monsters here that use gas attacks and say "What the hell? So it mean that these monsters are comic relief as well?" but I'm not gonna.

The reason is Dalton and revenge.

[The Black Wind]

Also, Crono's Color would be White, not Yellow... >.>

I'm basing this on Chrono Cross's element system, which admittedly was much better than Trigger's. Crono's element was Lightning in Chrono Trigger, which is Yellow in Chrono Cross. Serge's element is White in Chrono Cross. Thus, in the new game (if they based it on my idea, which will never happen) Crono is Yellow, Serge is White.

[Chocobo_Fan]

Yeah you're going a bit out of context here. The reason that Chrono can defeat Lavos 1vs1 is gameplay element. It has nothing to do with canon. Why the hell would he even need Marle and other people if he could do it alone? Don't confuse story with gameplay.

Hm I suppose so. But still, Crono seems to have superior magic, (level 3 spell -- Dalton only has level 2s) and plus he's a formidable swordsman as well.

Now back to Dalton's strength's.

And why did Zeal decide to put him as general? Seriously, Zeal had enormous standards, even going as far as to using the Earthbound as their personal slaves. They wouldn't just allow any goofball to become the general of THEIR ARMY. And as we can see during the arc where Serge saves Riddel, Porre has hotheaded jerks like that. As long as he has power and intimidation, it would be easy for him to become a high ranker. And yeah he got sucked into his own gate. He screwed up for a time. And? Magus got owned when he summoned Lavos and got sucked into his gate. People make mistakes. It happens. Doesn't mean they're imcompetent.

It's true that she likely picked him for a reason, yes. He probably has leadership capabilities and is ambitious. But, was this before or after Zeal started going bonkers? If it was before, you have a point, but if it was after, I wouldn't put it past her to pick a goofball to be a general just because he's ambitious... But that's getting too much into theorizing. It's much more probable that he was at a high rank even before Zeal's mind got eaten by Lavos, so I guess I'll stick with that. But he is still quite hotheaded and impulsive. Though the fact that Porre has hotheaded generals likely means that he was able to climb the ranks that way...or he just took over. *shrug* He may very well be strong by 1000 AD standards, seeing as the soldiers know nothing of magic, but...

And yes, when Janus's summoning procedure got screwed up he did get sucked into a gate, though in fairness, his procedure was actually quite ordered and would have worked perfectly if Crono and co. hadn't showed up, as Janus says himself. Yes, in the normal timeline Janus fights Lavos, sucks at it, and dies horribly, but at least he makes an actual effort and prepares for it; Dalton just tries to summon the Overlord, goes "huh?" and gets sucked in. If summoning golems makes him so powerful like you say, then I think he should have had the common sense to have some protection of some kind so that would never happen. The guy is not very bright.

He never once saw the blueprints of the Epoch. It's impossible. Only Belthasar would have those. And yet he could tell immediately that Epoch was made by Belthasar. And if he told the Daltonites what to do, he has the knowledge, right? He just doesn't wanna get his hands dirty.

*ahem*

And that ship of yours... It matches Belthasar's designs perfectly!

May not be word for word but that's pretty much what he said. That line obviously implies that he has the designs as a reference point. If he truly had the intuition that you claim he has, he would have simply said "That ship... It's the Wings of Time!" or something like that.

Also, I highly doubt he told the Daltonites things as complicated as "Attach this blue wire to that yellow one, install this control chip here", etc. It's much more likely he told them things like "Okay, I want this thing to be able to fly, have lasers, and bomb stuff, you got that? And if you mess up, you're dead!"

And yeah he is strong. He's the one controlling the Golems, he's not hiding behind them and he's not afraid to fight on his own. Don't forget you're supposed to lose to the Golem the first time around. And you're also drawing gameplay into this again. Magus got owned by Lavos during the Ocean Palace. Yet if you use codes to get Magus single into your party you can still defeat Lavos. Strange huh?

...What? I never claimed that they won against the first golem battle. You do, however, have to beat the golem sisters, so the team is definitely capable of defeating golems. And two at the same time, no less. He's not afraid to fight on his own, true, he does that multiple times, but all he does during the golem battles are sit back and do nothing.

The guy talks about overthrowing Guardia to Johnny's theme music. Johnny's theme music. It is simply too hard to take the guy seriously. He seems more like a comic relief character than anything. (Except in the scene where he kidnaps Schala, but I mean, really, Johnny's theme...)

@ Maggiekarp: Ah, yes, that's another thing. Dalton's most powerful attack is burping. I mean, come on. That's just rediculous.

Even one-on-one with Crono, Dalton would be hard-pressed to win. Not to mention he likely has Marle with him as well.

@ Black Wind: Crono's original element was Sky/Heaven. Also, in CTDS, Lightning is renamed to Light, and that's what White from CC is... (Light and celestial bodies/Heaven)

[The Black Wind]

Wait, so Lightning was a mistranslation? Christ.

Be that as it may, I'd still have it changed, just because I would have one element per character. That way you're combining the best of the CT battle system with the best of the CC battle system. And between Crono and Serge, the former is definitely closer than Yellow due to having Lightning spells regardless, so I'd give White to Serge. But, that's just me. It's not like this is actually going to happen.