Dalton (Post-DS Revision) [DS Spoilers Included]

[Dark Serge]

Hm I suppose so. But still, Crono seems to have superior magic, (level 3 spell -- Dalton only has level 2s) and plus he's a formidable swordsman as well.

If I recall he also had a spell similar to Luminaire. But I'll have to recheck that.

And yes, when Janus's summoning procedure got screwed up he did get sucked into a gate, though in fairness, his procedure was actually quite ordered and would have worked perfectly if Crono and co. hadn't showed up, as Janus says himself. Yes, in the normal timeline Janus fights Lavos, sucks at it, and dies horribly, but at least he makes an actual effort and prepares for it; Dalton just tries to summon the Overlord, goes "huh?" and gets sucked in. If summoning golems makes him so powerful like you say, then I think he should have had the common sense to have some protection of some kind so that would never happen. The guy is not very bright.

The fact that he imprisoned them in the first place was thinking ahead. He expected them to start a rebellion and imprisoned them in a huge ship loaded with guards. He probably didn't expect them to escape, and he didn't expect the Golem Overlord to mysteriously come out. So he may have underestimated them, yeah. But with a small army on his side, I can't blame him for being confident. He didn't expect them to jump off the Blackbird and risk a fall to their deaths, but miracilously safely landing atop the Epoch. So he fought them again with all he had, but 3 on one and also fighting in the sky just didn't work out without being prepared. He then desperately tried to summon his strongest Golem but this one had already come out by a fluke and was disposed of, thus him getting sucked in instead.

May not be word for word but that's pretty much what he said. That line obviously implies that he has the designs as a reference point. If he truly had the intuition that you claim he has, he would have simply said "That ship... It's the Wings of Time!" or something like that.

Also, I highly doubt he told the Daltonites things as complicated as "Attach this blue wire to that yellow one, install this control chip here", etc. It's much more likely he told them things like "Okay, I want this thing to be able to fly, have lasers, and bomb stuff, you got that? And if you mess up, you're dead!"

It really depends on how you interpret that. He had already seen the Blackbird and the Ocean Palace (and he was the guy in charge of the construction. Belthasar designed them, but Dalton actually built them), and possibly their blueprints. It wouldn't be surprising if he could just tell from looking at the Epoch, because he also knew Belthasar was working on them. And that line would still make perfect sense.

Even if you doubt it, I say it's probably true. Those Daltonites don't seem really smart themselves. At least not smarter then Dalton. Afterwards they say he was stingy with the coin and a strict boss, so why didn't they oppose him? Because they're idiots, and they need a clever leader in order to survive.

...What? I never claimed that they won against the first golem battle. You do, however, have to beat the golem sisters, so the team is definitely capable of defeating golems. And two at the same time, no less. He's not afraid to fight on his own, true, he does that multiple times, but all he does during the golem battles are sit back and do nothing.

The guy talks about overthrowing Guardia to Johnny's theme music. Johnny's theme music. It is simply too hard to take the guy seriously. He seems more like a comic relief character than anything. (Except in the scene where he kidnaps Schala, but I mean, really, Johnny's theme...)

Who says he's not actually the one controlling the Golems? Maybe they're mere puppets, and it needs an extreme focus of mind to control them and how they attack. Who knows? This would also explain how Chrono and pals could defeat them later on; perhaps it was because Dalton was losing his focus.

Yes I also thought that music was wrong for the scene. But then Dalton didn't have his own theme to begin with. Perhaps they were just fucking around to see what would fit. But yes I agree, putting Johnny's theme behind that was unforgivable.

[Chocobo_Fan]

There were characters that had multiple versions of the same element in Trigger, you know... (Marle and Glenn, Ayla and Robo) I don't see why there shouldn't be a few multiples here and there. Also, Luminaire is holy light, (DS version says so in the description) so I'm pretty sure that counts as White...

And even in the US, Lightning is now officially Light, as CTDS says so...

So Crono = White, not Yellow. But meh, your fangame, not mine...

Edit: Blargh, Dark posted while I was typing that... >.<

If I recall he also had a spell similar to Luminaire. But I'll have to recheck that.

No he doesn't. He has Plasma, yes, but that's a Lightning II lookalike, not Luminaire, like I have said previously.

The fact that he imprisoned them in the first place was thinking ahead. He expected them to start a rebellion and imprisoned them in a huge ship loaded with guards. He probably didn't expect them to escape, and he didn't expect the Golem Overlord to mysteriously come out. So he may have underestimated them, yeah. But with a small army on his side, I can't blame him for being confident. He didn't expect them to jump off the Blackbird and risk a fall to their deaths, but miracilously safely landing atop the Epoch. So he fought them again with all he had, but 3 on one and also fighting in the sky just didn't work out without being prepared. He then desperately tried to summon his strongest Golem but this one had already come out by a fluke and was disposed of, thus him getting sucked in instead.

He did imprison them and that was thinking ahead...but placing them in a room with access to the air vents and with pretty dumb guards, too? Although you may argue that's just a "gameplay feature"... And yes, he did indeed underestimate them, though he's arrogant so that's to be expected. However, if he really had so much control over the golems like you say, I think he should have noticed that the Golem Overlord was missing... Him being sucked in by his own gate was the developer's way of giving a fitting, humorous end to a comic relief character.

(But no, gods forbid, they just had to bring him back in the DV...sigh...)

It really depends on how you interpret that. He had already seen the Blackbird and the Ocean Palace (and he was the guy in charge of the construction. Belthasar designed them, but Dalton actually built them), and possibly their blueprints. It wouldn't be surprising if he could just tell from looking at the Epoch, because he also knew Belthasar was working on them. And that line would still make perfect sense.

He built the Ocean Palace and the Blackbird? o.O You sure about that? I don't recall anyone saying that in-game... I'm pretty sure that they say Belthasar built them. Or maybe he didn't... I tend to have a crappy memory at times. But even so, Dalton would just be following Belthasar's instructions, he wouldn't need the knowledge needed to actually make it from scratch...

Even if you doubt it, I say it's probably true. Those Daltonites don't seem really smart themselves. At least not smarter then Dalton. Afterwards they say he was stingy with the coin and a strict boss, so why didn't they oppose him? Because they're idiots, and they need a clever leader in order to survive.

While it does seem true that the Daltonites are even dumber than their leader, Dalton himself wasn't all that "clever"... I guess they didn't really have any other choice, since the more competent leaders (If you can even call Zeal "competent"...) were gone.

Who says he's not actually the one controlling the Golems? Maybe they're mere puppets, and it needs an extreme focus of mind to control them and how they attack. Who knows? This would also explain how Chrono and pals could defeat them later on; perhaps it was because Dalton was losing his focus.

That could actually make sense. Okay, that works, then. However, Crono and co. are stronger then, as well... The fact that there are two golems seems to make sense that it would be difficult for Dalton to control them, since he'd need to divide his attention. However, this doesn't help your argument that he could just summon five golems at once to kill off the Guardian army.

Yes I also thought that music was wrong for the scene. But then Dalton didn't have his own theme to begin with. Perhaps they were just fucking around to see what would fit. But yes I agree, putting Johnny's theme behind that was unforgivable.

I thought it was quite fitting. A comic relief character deserves a comical theme.

(Also, anyone else here think that Dalton's speech in the DV could be a red herring, of sorts? There might be something else behind the Fall of Guardia, SE might just have put him there to screw with out heads and make us think Dalton's responsible for the Fall of Guardia when he really isn't... Or am I just overthinking this? :/)

But bah, I tire of this. We can argue about this until the end of time, Dark Serge, and we still won't get anywhere. We're both adamant, and the whole argument is basically a clash of opinions anyway. I have better things to do than argue about this endlessly. (No offense) How about we just stop here and discuss my above paragraph (in the parentheses) instead? I think that would be much more productive... Unless you want to keep discussing about Dalton being/not being a goofball, of course.

[KebreI]

He did imprison them and that was thinking ahead...but placing them in a room with access to the air vents and with pretty dumb guards, too? Although you may argue that's just a "gameplay feature"... And yes, he did indeed underestimate them, though he's arrogant so that's to be expected. However, if he really had so much control over the golems like you say, I think he should have noticed that the Golem Overlord was missing... Him being sucked in by his own gate was the developer's way of giving a fitting, humorous end to a comic relief character.

You keep skipping the fact he was able to imprison them in the first place. Everyone can agree that Chrono and Co. are stronger and smarter, but do not think Dalton was an idiot. Example grab some drop out living one the streets, we may consider him dumb, but in a less developed world he could be a genius fact and intellect wise. Dalton is most likely an intelligent person, just not a smart one. He can lead(through fear?), he can construct( but design?), he can fight(with dirty tricks?).

[Chocobo_Fan]

Good point, but if you recall, how does he knock them out in the first place?

Look! Behind you!

I mean, seriously. He has "COMIC RELIEF" written all over him. Compared to the Daltonites he is likely smart, though, I suppose. But that still does not change the fact that he lacks the skill and capability to take down Guardia.

[mav]

He's not supposed to be painted as this maniacal villain or even this dark warlord--roles like that are taken--Dalton is ultimately the buffoon, the comic relief villain. Now, we could either take that as a character quirk, or assume he's a complete idiot. Honestly, I think he's pretty cunning: where he cannot win, he has alternative methods (as KebreI already wrote out) and that shows that Dalton may be a worthy opponent. What's to say that he can't take these skills to develop a new army in a new era?

[Chocobo_Fan]

Hm, it's possible if he overtook Porre, which is more likely than him steadily gaining favor...

We'll have to wait until the next Chrono game for a definitive answer, though.

[The Black Wind]

There were characters that had multiple versions of the same element in Trigger, you know... (Marle and Glenn, Ayla and Robo) I don't see why there shouldn't be a few multiples here and there. Also, Luminaire is holy light, (DS version says so in the description) so I'm pretty sure that counts as White...

And even in the US, Lightning is now officially Light, as CTDS says so...

So Crono = White, not Yellow. But meh, your fangame, not mine...

Yeah, you're entited to that. I'm not trying to argue here (over a fangame, no less), just providing my reasoning.

Ayla and Robo weren't capable of magic, so that doesn't count. They made up for this in raw physical power.  As for Marle and Frog, yeah they were both of the Water element and had different techniques, this is true. Like I said, the element system in Trigger was kind of lacking which is why I preferred Cross's in terms of organization and quantity. I honestly believe that in CC, Crono would've been considered Yellow since he had more Lightning-based spells than he did Light. As far as I was concerned in CT he was Lightning until Luminaire came into the picture. That change in CTDS took me completely by surprise.

That said, I would still give him Luminaire since having one Light spell wouldn't change his class (just like Magus was Shadow despite having Fire, Ice, and Lightning). Hell, just look at Crono's hair. He even looks like he's got electricity running through his body.

[art_garfunkel]

There were characters that had multiple versions of the same element in Trigger, you know... (Marle and Glenn, Ayla and Robo) I don't see why there shouldn't be a few multiples here and there. Also, Luminaire is holy light, (DS version says so in the description) so I'm pretty sure that counts as White...

And even in the US, Lightning is now officially Light, as CTDS says so...

So Crono = White, not Yellow. But meh, your fangame, not mine...

Yeah, you're entited to that. I'm not trying to argue here (over a fangame, no less), just providing my reasoning.

Ayla and Robo weren't capable of magic, so that doesn't count. They made up for this in raw physical power.  As for Marle and Frog, yeah they were both of the Water element and had different techniques, this is true. Like I said, the element system in Trigger was kind of lacking which is why I preferred Cross's in terms of organization and quantity. I honestly believe that in CC, Crono would've been considered Yellow since he had more Lightning-based spells than he did Light. As far as I was concerned in CT he was Lightning until Luminaire came into the picture. That change in CTDS took me completely by surprise.

That said, I would still give him Luminaire since having one Light spell wouldn't change his class (just like Magus was Shadow despite having Fire, Ice, and Lightning). Hell, just look at Crono's hair. He even looks like he's got electricity running through his body.

Excuse me, but this has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

Dalton causes the fall of Guardia. It is canon now. Regardless of how powerful you think he is in terms of gameplay, I think Kato has made this all very clear.

[chrono eric]

Dalton causes the fall of Guardia. It is canon now. Regardless of how powerful you think he is in terms of gameplay, I think Kato has made this all very clear.

Seconded. In RPG's characters that are unimaginably powerful can ultimately fall victim to whatever fates the writers of the story deem fit. If that is the Fall of Guardia (which it is), then regardless of whether or not Crono and co. defended Guardia against Dalton, Guardia did in fact fall. And it was because of Dalton.

[The Black Wind]

There were characters that had multiple versions of the same element in Trigger, you know... (Marle and Glenn, Ayla and Robo) I don't see why there shouldn't be a few multiples here and there. Also, Luminaire is holy light, (DS version says so in the description) so I'm pretty sure that counts as White...

And even in the US, Lightning is now officially Light, as CTDS says so...

So Crono = White, not Yellow. But meh, your fangame, not mine...

Yeah, you're entited to that. I'm not trying to argue here (over a fangame, no less), just providing my reasoning.

Ayla and Robo weren't capable of magic, so that doesn't count. They made up for this in raw physical power.  As for Marle and Frog, yeah they were both of the Water element and had different techniques, this is true. Like I said, the element system in Trigger was kind of lacking which is why I preferred Cross's in terms of organization and quantity. I honestly believe that in CC, Crono would've been considered Yellow since he had more Lightning-based spells than he did Light. As far as I was concerned in CT he was Lightning until Luminaire came into the picture. That change in CTDS took me completely by surprise.

That said, I would still give him Luminaire since having one Light spell wouldn't change his class (just like Magus was Shadow despite having Fire, Ice, and Lightning). Hell, just look at Crono's hair. He even looks like he's got electricity running through his body.

Excuse me, but this has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

I already knew that, but fine. You're excused. Happy?

[Chocobo_Fan]

Does he truly cause the Fall, though? We don't actually ever see Dalton leading the attack on Guardia. He might have tried and failed, then another, more powerful being came, messed with time, and caused the Fall...

But again, I'm likely overthinking this. We'll have to wait until Chrono Break (if it even answers questions about the Fall, grumble grumble...) to know for sure.

[Dark Serge]

Him saying he's going to overthrow Guardia and then the Fall of Guardia happening in 1005 pretty much seals the deal imo

But yeah I also can't wait for another sequel, I just hope if it comes it won't be PS3 or Xbox 360, because I don't have those

[mav]

Is Dalton using Luminaire at 3:38 in this video? It's called Plasma, as is the Lightning 2 knockoff, but holy shit, this guy uses some crazy techs. It's clear that Dalton can handle control over an army but with Luminaire, a spell that we've contended makes a character "his own tank with twice as much firepower, durability, and mobility", he's definitely become a notable force. I don't know how or when he learned techs like Luminaire and Dark Matter, but he sure as hell did.

[Dark Serge]

See, I told you he knows Luminaire.

[Chocobo_Fan]

Odd, I didn't know that. So Plasma/Nether Blast/etc. seem to use random levels of their elements... Gods, Dalton's techs are confusing. :/ The facts are there, though, so I stand corrected. If he truly can cast uber-spells like the level 3s, then yes, he's pretty powerful. You win on that one.

But there is still no way he can overthrow Guardia if the trio is present. Something must have happened... Gah, I hate it when game developers make us fumble in the dark like this! >.<

Since he knows level 3s, he may very well be able to defeat Crono one-on-one... But even that's a bit unlikely.

But bah. You win, fine. I don't even care anymore. *Waits eagerly for Chrono Break instead*