Dalton (Post-DS Revision) [DS Spoilers Included]

[ryu planeswalker]

Magus uses you, you do not use Magus.

They live happily ever after.

A fine ending...

But it is still strange Porrean use guns and cannons, did we see then in Zeal?

I think it's possible they 1) developed it on their own (it's not terribly advanced technology after all), 2) got them from Lucca (the receipt could be proof of this), and/or 3) Luccia had a hand in it...this seems plausible since she worked with Lucca.

Don't forget that Melechior was in that era, He and Lucca could have toyed with tech a bit, or Dalton Kidnapped him and forced him to work on weapons, but we discussed that in another thread.

[mav]

Well just to state it as bluntly as possible.

I don't think Magus had anything to do with the fall of Guardia.  Mainly because it just seems to be a poorly written plot idea.  Not inconcievable, not unlikely, but poorly written.  Magus becomes evil incarnate to achieve his goals, finally reaches a pinnacle and fails, only to wipe clean his slate and....become evil incarnate again?  Redundant.

Thank you, thank you, I didn't want to state it, but I'm glad it's been said. Ultimately, Magus gains nothing from the Fall of Guardia: it doesn't do shit for whatever he was searching for and it ruins his character. Just because he could easily play a hand doesn't mean he did or should. Like V_ just said, he needs to go against his ideals--and in my opinion, he needs to change himself and reestablish his identity if he wants anything out of this.

And the only way I could see Lucca or Melchior helping out Porre is if Guardia simply turned its shoulder to them and if Melchior, Lucca, and Guardia had absolutely no idea what Porre was planning on doing.

[Magus_Brokenhart]

It would be a metaphor as to how humanity is to repeat the same mistakes over and over. Magus would inevitably become what he used to be. A second war against Guardia would show that perfectly. Magus, being oblivious and all, would easily succumb to Dalton's knowledge. He'd see him as his best chance at regaining his memories.

[V_Translanka]

There doesn't seem like there's any precedence to assume Magus' character is going in that direction, though...

[Phillies64]

I also don't buy that Magus had anything to do with the fall of Guardia. While it's an interesting theory, there's really no evidence that even implies this.

CTDS showed us that Magus lost his memory. He was searching for something, but can't remember what it is. I don't see how this can lead to the fall of Guardia, especially since Porre seemed to be a technologically advanced military power. I don't see any reason why Magus would be involved at all.

[mav]

It would be a metaphor as to how humanity is to repeat the same mistakes over and over. Magus would inevitably become what he used to be. A second war against Guardia would show that perfectly. Magus, being oblivious and all, would easily succumb to Dalton's knowledge. He'd see him as his best chance at regaining his memories.

As interesting as this metaphor would be, it's not grounded in anything. How is Magus oblivious? He's naive when it comes to Lavos, but almost everyone was. And when it comes to being outwitted by Dalton, I seriously doubt it; the man may have no memories, but that doesn't mean he's devoid of reason.

Look at the reasoning behind Magus's attack on Guardia in 600ad, it was basically used to summon Lavos. And even though it was Ozzie who first realized Magus's potential (similar to how Dalton would in the Dalton/Magus scenario), Ozzie still ended up being a right-hand man. Ozzie rallied the support of the mystics, fueled their fury towards humans, and led the raids on Guardia, while Magus remained in the background as the supposed leader of the Mystics. Magus is clearly cunning enough and manipulative enough to use Ozzie as a pawn in his own schemes--even as a younger Magus, he was still an authority to Ozzie. These memories may have faded away, but these instincts are still there. Magus is one of the greatest magic users of all time, would he really be used as a pawn by Dalton?

[utunnels]

BTW, why did Magus have to attack Guardia to summon Lavos?

[mav]

To gain power necessary to summon and confront Lavos, Magus led the Mystics in war with humanity, achieving a deified status among them.

Now, I haven't checked the script yet, but assuming that the information is accurate, it shows Magus needed to start the war to gain power...now, whether that is spiritual power or physical resources, I do not know. That page also confirms my thought that Magus had began the Mystic War with the secret intention of summoning Lavos.

[utunnels]

DO you mean he needs some practice to gain power? Sounds strange.
Yeah, I don't know what he plans to do after defeating Lavos, perhaps he only wants a revenge.

[mav]

I don't think he needed practice to gain power...but perhaps he needed support and materials, and he probably needed to be close to the Magic Cave. The mystics were basically tools for Magus to use--he needed a castle built, but to get them to do his bidding he needed to become their leader. Once he did, he started the war, and voila, they became his army and his source of labor.

I'm not sure what his desires are at this point...I figured it'd have to do with Schala, but I honestly have no clue.

[V_Translanka]

Did Magus start the war? How involved do we even know he was? We really only see him in his castle & hear about people saying how fierce he is...and he bitch-slaps Cyrus & Glenn, of course...I think the humans started the war by encroaching on Mystic territories (look at how there are Mystics on that mountain behind Truce in 600AD [& prior] and the Frog King in Guardia Forest as well)...

[mav]

I'm sure that there was already tension between the Mystics and the humans, but while we can't determine who started the conflict, it does appear that Magus and the Mystics were the beneficiaries of all this. Ozzie, for instance, continued the raids on the humans, while Mystics "dug in at Magus's Lair" (whatever that means)...I mean, Guardia's being ransacked and the Mystics don't seem to suffer from anything more than casualties...

[ZealKnight]

Ok, just to catch up. If Magus is Guile then he had nothing to do with the Fall of Gaurdia, but if he is not then it is plausible. Well I highly doubt that he is what caused the Fall of Gaurdia. It is much more likely he learned of the fortune teller in El Nido or even Diara, and felt he could learn from them. Or even that the frozen flame could help him. All I know is that Magus never uncloaked himself to Dalton, and even if that doesn't matter Dalton is too proud to accept the help of the false prophet that dared to steal his credit from the queen. The hate and disdain he had for Magus was much too great, well that's not fact just opinion, but mood and tone are both elements of stories.

My point is: I have plenty of faith in Dalton to do it by himself with the Tech on hand.

[mav]

Dalton's a buffoon, if you ask me, but he's still proven to be a cunning manipulator--so, I too agree that he could have done it without the help of Magus (but not necessarily on his own).

All I know is that Magus never uncloaked himself to Dalton, and even if that doesn't matter Dalton is too proud to accept the help of the false prophet that dared to steal his credit from the queen.

Ah! This is a very good point--did Dalton even know of Magus to begin with? I could see him conning the False Prophet, as a personal vendetta, but he'd first need to connect the dots: amnesiac Magus is Magus, Janus is Magus or Magus is False Prophet, then, and only then, would he probably feel the need to dupe and thwart Magus during the Fall of Guardia. Dalton has proven to be a man bent on revenge: the entire plot to raise up Porre and bring down Guardia is out of a deep, personal hatred towards Crono and co; if he realized who Magus was, I doubt he'd need seek his help--he'd probably try and give Magus a swift kick in the ass...

[Phillies64]

Did Magus start the war? How involved do we even know he was? We really only see him in his castle & hear about people saying how fierce he is...and he bitch-slaps Cyrus & Glenn, of course...I think the humans started the war by encroaching on Mystic territories (look at how there are Mystics on that mountain behind Truce in 600AD [& prior] and the Frog King in Guardia Forest as well)...

I'm glad someone brought this up. I don't feel like Magus ever started a war. The humans indeed encroached on the Mystics. The Mystics hyped Magus up to be their great leader. Hence the war with Magus.