A question about time traveler immunity. And perhaps, a new theory.

[Hyriel Mecrith]

Under Time Traveler's Immunity, a time traveler's actions are preserved in the past. Okay, but does time traveler immunity preserve the action of the time traveler, in the future? And if yes how would it proceed?

For example : When Crono kill Lavos in 1999 AD, he kill him in a future, in which he disappeared in 1000AD. But then, when he come back in 1000AD, this create a different future. A future which is different from the one in which he killed Lavos. So in this new future, Lavos is not killed by Crono. Since this is not the future in which Crono traveled. Unless of course Time traveler immunity, preserve the Crono, who killed lavos in the future. But in this case, it couldn't be the same Crono, since it's a different future. So in this case the Time traveler immunity, would need to create a new Crono in the future, to still Kill Lavos. This new Crono will after that cease to exist due to time bastard.
Well what do you think? Am I right? Am I Wrong? If I am wrong, what is my mistake?

[chrono eric]

You are right. Time Bastard is a strange theory indeed, but it is necessary to account for the way time travel works in the game (and if you think about it, you couldn't really write a coherent story about time travel if TB or something like it didn't exist, because it would be riddled with paradoxes).

A side effect of TB is that it indeed produces "other Crono's" that are not the same as the hero from the story. It does this both in events that happened in the past or the future.

Example: Crono sees that there is no forest in 1000 AD., he goes back in time to plant the forest in 600 AD and returns to 1000 AD to see that the forest has grown. But in the new timeline, the first Crono from 1000 AD would see a forest there and would not go back to 600 AD to plant it. But of course due to TTI, a Crono emerges in 600 AD to plant the forest.

Now follow me here: Since the original Crono came from a timeline in which there was no forest, the Crono in the new timeline that observes the forest is a completely different Crono. Very strange indeed, but the theory wouldn't work otherwise.

[Hyriel Mecrith]

Well thanks, but my question is not about time bastard. But about time traveler immunity. Besides, Time bastard does not create duplicate, it erase them.
It seems my question as I formulated it was misleading.
In the example of the forest : Time traveler Immunity does not create a duplicate in 600 AD. It is the original time traveler who is preserved by Time Traveler Immunity. And in the new 1000 AD, the new Crono who always saw a forest, has been created by natural mean : his parent gave him birth.
So in this example no duplicate where created by time mechanics. Then the new Crono disappear through Time Bastard, at the exact same moment the original departed for 600 AD. So when the original Crono in his era, he find no duplicate.
In this case, there is no problem at all.
Now imagine, that after returning in 1000 AD, Crono now leave for 65 000 000 BC. Here, he somehow, kill Lavos before he even crash on earth. I know, it is nearly impossible, but to made myself clear I prefer taking a radical change in the past.
So Lavos did not crash. The reptite do not go extinct. The human or rather the Ape, are the ones who disappear.
Well I know, and I understand perfectly, that Crono will still arrive in 65 000 000 BC due to Time Traveler Immunity.
But the question is, does Time Traveler Immunity preserve the arrival of Crono in 600 AD? Does it create a Crono, identical to the one that originally arrived here?
This Crono, would later be erased by Time Bastard. If he is created that is.
And it is not finished, The same question can be asked for the original return of Crono in 1000AD.
In short, my question is, does Time Traveler Immunity preserve every arrival of a time traveler, or only the last one?
I think, it preserve every one of them. But to do that it will need to create duplicate.
Additionally in Chrono Trigger it would mean, that duplicate of Crono and Co would be created in the bright future of 2300 AD.
Well what do you think?

[killercactus]

I'm pretty sure he would be preserved in 600 AD and in 2300 AD.  I believe this is proven by Belthasar.  He gets sucked into a gate at the Ocean Palace disaster and arrives in the bright and happy 2300 AD after Crono kills Lavos.  Then, he orchestrates the events of Chrono Cross from there.

[chrono eric]

So in this example no duplicate where created by time mechanics. Then the new Crono disappear through Time Bastard, at the exact same moment the original departed for 600 AD. So when the original Crono in his era, he find no duplicate.
In this case, there is no problem at all.

Time Bastard and TTI are like two sides of the same coin. And in this case, although you are using a different definition of "duplicate" that I am, the two Crono's would indeed not be the same. The Crono from the past is not the same Crono as the original time traveller.

[Thought]

Under Time Traveler's Immunity, a time traveler's actions are preserved in the past. Okay, but does time traveler immunity preserve the action of the time traveler, in the future? And if yes how would it proceed?

Ah, but you see, time is never changed in the future. That is what Time Error is for. When Crono killed Lavos, even if it was in 1999, Time Error continued to progress, so even when he returns to 1000AD after killing Lavos, Lavos was still dead because he died in Time Error Past.

One would really need a way to travel through Time Error (which would then seem to necessitate a Time Error Error to order those events) to alter that event.

Side note: The validity and even the necessity of Time Bastard is not a set thing (indeed, no theory on the compendium is set, but some are so good it would be quite difficult to come up with a better one).

[Eske]

Well thanks, but my question is not about time bastard. But about time traveler immunity. Besides, Time bastard does not create duplicate, it erase them.
It seems my question as I formulated it was misleading.
In the example of the forest : Time traveler Immunity does not create a duplicate in 600 AD. It is the original time traveler who is preserved by Time Traveler Immunity. And in the new 1000 AD, the new Crono who always saw a forest, has been created by natural mean : his parent gave him birth.
So in this example no duplicate where created by time mechanics. Then the new Crono disappear through Time Bastard, at the exact same moment the original departed for 600 AD. So when the original Crono in his era, he find no duplicate.
In this case, there is no problem at all.
Now imagine, that after returning in 1000 AD, Crono now leave for 65 000 000 BC. Here, he somehow, kill Lavos before he even crash on earth. I know, it is nearly impossible, but to made myself clear I prefer taking a radical change in the past.
So Lavos did not crash. The reptite do not go extinct. The human or rather the Ape, are the ones who disappear.
Well I know, and I understand perfectly, that Crono will still arrive in 65 000 000 BC due to Time Traveler Immunity.
But the question is, does Time Traveler Immunity preserve the arrival of Crono in 600 AD? Does it create a Crono, identical to the one that originally arrived here?
This Crono, would later be erased by Time Bastard. If he is created that is.
And it is not finished, The same question can be asked for the original return of Crono in 1000AD.
In short, my question is, does Time Traveler Immunity preserve every arrival of a time traveler, or only the last one?
I think, it preserve every one of them. But to do that it will need to create duplicate.
Additionally in Chrono Trigger it would mean, that duplicate of Crono and Co would be created in the bright future of 2300 AD.
Well what do you think?

I think TTI preserves all time travel events of a time traveler.

1. Crono goes from 1000AD to 600AD  at local time of 5:30pm
2. He looks at a weeping willow tree and then heads back into the gate to 1000AD. now its 5:35pm
3. A new copy of Crono is born who either enters the gate at 5:30pm and goes straight to the DBT or does not enter the gate at 5:30pm and disappears into the DBT regardless. 

So it really doesn't matter if a new Crono is born or not.

4. Crono then decides to go to 65milBC and does something so weeping willows never exist.
5. He returns to 1000AD.
6. Whether or not this new Crono yet again goes into the gate to 600AD/65milBC is inconsequential.
7. Crono will appear in 600AD and will not see a weeping willow.  The original Crono now sitting in 1000AD, who originally saw the weeping willow will still remember it.
8. Crono will still appear in 65mil BC and perform the same actions he always did no matter what  -  that is until someone travels back further than him to make those actions impossible to perform (as Crono did to himself, by eliminating weeping willows).
9. The original Crono who was not TB'ed through this whole experience will remember everything that he did.

That's as far as TTI goes.    TTI doesn't really protect the time traveler nor does it protect the changes made to the timeline, it merely protects the 5D change (the gate opening and releasing its "content") on Time.   So whatever happens after the gate opens can be changed (Belthasar seeing the bleak future, then the bright one after Lavos was killed), but the fact that the gate was ever open - cant be changed by the means we see available to the characters.

[Thought]

I think TTI preserves all time travel events of a time traveler.

1. Crono goes from 1000AD to 600AD  at local time of 5:30pm
2. He looks at a weeping willow tree and then heads back into the gate to 1000AD. now its 5:35pm
3. A new copy of Crono is born who either enters the gate at 5:30pm and goes straight to the DBT or does not enter the gate at 5:30pm and disappears into the DBT regardless. 

That's Time Bastard, not TTI. Just to clear things up. TTI does not necessitate TB.

TB... I'm pretty sure they have antibiotics for that now. I'm not sure why it is still around

[Hyriel Mecrith]

I think TTI preserves all time travel events of a time traveler.

1. Crono goes from 1000AD to 600AD  at local time of 5:30pm
2. He looks at a weeping willow tree and then heads back into the gate to 1000AD. now its 5:35pm
3. A new copy of Crono is born who either enters the gate at 5:30pm and goes straight to the DBT or does not enter the gate at 5:30pm and disappears into the DBT regardless. 

So it really doesn't matter if a new Crono is born or not.

4. Crono then decides to go to 65milBC and does something so weeping willows never exist.
5. He returns to 1000AD.
6. Whether or not this new Crono yet again goes into the gate to 600AD/65milBC is inconsequential.
7. Crono will appear in 600AD and will not see a weeping willow.  The original Crono now sitting in 1000AD, who originally saw the weeping willow will still remember it.
8. Crono will still appear in 65mil BC and perform the same actions he always did no matter what  -  that is until someone travels back further than him to make those actions impossible to perform (as Crono did to himself, by eliminating weeping willows).
9. The original Crono who was not TB'ed through this whole experience will remember everything that he did.

That's as far as TTI goes.    TTI doesn't really protect the time traveler nor does it protect the changes made to the timeline, it merely protects the 5D change (the gate opening and releasing its "content") on Time.   So whatever happens after the gate opens can be changed (Belthasar seeing the bleak future, then the bright one after Lavos was killed), but the fact that the gate was ever open - cant be changed by the means we see available to the characters.

Okay, that was what I thought.
But then I realized.

(Belthasar seeing the bleak future, then the bright one after Lavos was killed)

The original Belthasar has been erased by TB, and then TTI replaced him with a new one.
 
Up till now I never considered the fact that a time traveler whose arrival is protected by TTI could be later erased by TB. I was so caught up by the immunity part of TTI...  It seems so obvious now. How could have I been this blind.
Thanks to have opened my eyes.

[Thought]

Actually, the original Belthasar wasn't erased. The original belthasar's appearance in 2300 AD is protected but not the subsequent events; thus CC Belthasar would be the one who saw the original Ocean Palace disaster. The Belthasar from the changed timeline in which Crono and Co interferred with the Ocean Palace, assuming TB is correct, is the one shunted into the DBT.

[Eske]

Okay, that was what I thought.
But then I realized.

(Belthasar seeing the bleak future, then the bright one after Lavos was killed)

The original Belthasar has been erased by TB, and then TTI replaced him with a new one.
 
Up till now I never considered the fact that a time traveler whose arrival is protected by TTI could be later erased by TB. I was so caught up by the immunity part of TTI...  It seems so obvious now. How could have I been this blind.
Thanks to have opened my eyes.

No, the original Belthasar was not erased by TB - he was sent to the DBT when Crono created the bright future.  The Belthasar who entered the black gate at the Ocean Palace the second time around was sent to the DBT via TB.   But wait!


This is the order of events in Time Error:

1. Belthasar A enters gate in 12,000BC
2. Belthasar A emerges in Bleak 2300AD
3. Crono intervenes
4. Belthasar B enters gate in 12,000BC - goes straight to DBT  (via TB)
5. Crono kills Lavos.  Belthasar A and that entire piece of the Timeline are instantly sent to the DBT
6. Belthasar A emerges in Bright 2300AD

yea sounds weird that the exact same person goes to two different futures right? We can't really say he is the same though - he isn't. Its pretty much like having Belthasar A1 and Belthasar A2.   That's what I meant by "this is as far as TTI goes".  Belthasar only time traveled once.  The fact he did so is protected by TTI  and any subsequent version from 12,000BC will be dismissed by TB.  Yet this Belthasar isn't exactly the same as the one Crono met because its a new future.  If Crono went there, Belthasar wouldn't recall the old 2300AD of course, so individual immunity is fragile.

Once you stop hopping around on the 5D axis, you are fair game for being changed.

Edit - I wasn't satisfied with my old response.

[Hyriel Mecrith]

Actually, the original Belthasar wasn't erased. The original belthasar's appearance in 2300 AD is protected but not the subsequent events; thus CC Belthasar would be the one who saw the original Ocean Palace disaster. The Belthasar from the changed timeline in which Crono and Co interfered with the Ocean Palace, assuming TB is correct, is the one shunted into the DBT.

I have more difficulty with TB than I thought.
Originally, i thought it was a great idea, but, well I am not so sure anymore.
In the case of Belthasar, when the ocean palace incident changed. Belthasar of 12000BC, was TB ed. Then the Belthasar in 2300BC is overwritten along with the future. The old future is replaced by one in which the Black omen was always present. And then TTI, create Belthazar as he was when he first arrived in 2300.
I think, it would be easier, if the Belthasar of 12000BC, was just sent directly toward the new 2300.
I know, I know. Magus remember the old incident after he was changed. So he is the original Janus, from the original incident. This mean that the Janus of the new incident, has been TB ed. It's then natural to assume, that it is the same for the three gurus.
If it weren't for the case of Magus, TB could be avoided.
Wait a minute. There is one big difference between Magus, and the three gurus. Magus, time traveled another time. He is even responsible for the new ocean palace incident.
Well before continuing this line of reasoning, I have the following question :
Is there fact in the game that prove without a doubt that the three gurus, after the new Ocean Palace Incident, remember the original incident, and not the new ones?

[chrono eric]

yea sounds weird that the exact same person goes to two different futures right? We can't really say he is the same though - he isn't. Its pretty much like having Belthasar A1 and Belthasar A2.  Once you stop hopping around on the 5D axis, you are fair game for being changed.

This was exactly what I was trying to say earlier, that the two are not the same person per se, but came from the same timeline. It's literally almost as if Belthesar was sent to two different futures, except that one didn't exist until after Crono and co. changed it. A more reasonable way to view the Belthesar situation is to view time as cyclic instead of linear. On the first pass through his life, Belthesar A emerged in the ruined future and eventually dies. On one of the next passes, he emerges in the bright future.

[Eske]

Actually, the original Belthasar wasn't erased. The original belthasar's appearance in 2300 AD is protected but not the subsequent events; thus CC Belthasar would be the one who saw the original Ocean Palace disaster. The Belthasar from the changed timeline in which Crono and Co interfered with the Ocean Palace, assuming TB is correct, is the one shunted into the DBT.

I have more difficulty with TB than I thought.
Originally, i thought it was a great idea, but, well I am not so sure anymore.
In the case of Belthasar, when the ocean palace incident changed. Belthasar of 12000BC, was TB ed. Then the Belthasar in 2300BC is overwritten along with the future. The old future is replaced by one in which the Black omen was always present. And then TTI, create Belthazar as he was when he first arrived in 2300.
I think, it would be easier, if the Belthasar of 12000BC, was just sent directly toward the new 2300.
I know, I know. Magus remember the old incident after he was changed. So he is the original Janus, from the original incident. This mean that the Janus of the new incident, has been TB ed. It's then natural to assume, that it is the same for the three gurus.
If it weren't for the case of Magus, TB could be avoided.
Wait a minute. There is one big difference between Magus, and the three gurus. Magus, time traveled another time. He is even responsible for the new ocean palace incident.
Well before continuing this line of reasoning, I have the following question :
Is there fact in the game that prove without a doubt that the three gurus, after the new Ocean Palace Incident, remember the original incident, and not the new ones?

Yes, it would be easier if the new Belthasar was the one who was sent to the now altered future and I tried to argue that on another thread until Acacia Sgt and Thought helped me better understand how TB and TTI work.

As for your question:  I guess you could say that Melchior in 1000AD doesn't say anything implying he remembers you.

Also, since TTI preserves any instance of time travel.  That gate will appear in 1000AD no matter what.  Also, the gate's contents (in this case, Melchior) are outside of the timeline - making a 5D move.  So it makes sense that a 4D event won't change it.

When Crono goes back to 1000AD - this new Melchior is the exact same one that entered the black gate the first time, but not the exact same one Crono met at the Millennial Fair. (This new one would always recall the Black Omen existing in 1000AD, but not Crono's presence in 12000BC).

[killercactus]

As for your question:  I guess you could say that Melchior in 1000AD doesn't say anything implying he remembers you.

Melchior in 1000 AD shouldn't remember Crono & Co. at all.  Melchior in 1000 AD is the first version of Melchior (Melchior A I guess, preseved by TTI) that ever existed - the one from the original Ocean Palace incident.  During the original Ocean Palace incident, Crono & Co. weren't there.  When Crono and Co. travel to 12000 BC, you meet the Time Bastard Melchior.  He disappears during the new Ocean Palace incident because of Time Bastard and ends up in the DBT.  The same can be said (assumed) of the other gurus, only we don't see them disappear in the game.

Melchior's time travel is exactly the same as Belthasar's.  Melchior gets sucked in the gate in 12000, and arrives at 1000 AD where Fiona's Forest is dead.  Crono intervenes, and now Melchior arrives in 1000 AD where Fiona's Forest is alive.