Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?

[chrono eric]

Hmm interesting point. I'm not sure if it applies fully though since the Crono examples all have to do with an individual timeline.

I think that if person X appears in 1015 AD, and person XY does not disappear due to Time Bastard in 1020 A.D., that we will have a violation of the conservation of energy, which is used partially as rationale for TB and TTI by the Compendium.

But even better: I have to drive to the airport right quick but when I get back I'll edit this post or post again a suitable scenario that would create a paradox if person X did not appear in 1015 A.D. That should prove that TTI would still be preserved but that strangely enough TB would not be.

[killercactus]

Imagine then Crono and Co. arriving in 12000 BC to board the Black Omen, and seeing Chronopolis there.  I'm sure they would go to investigate it.  FATE, being locked out of the flame, cannot stop them.  Something happens to them there, and they die or are trapped like Miguel. 

Yes, but remember that this exists in an intermediate timeline before the dimensions split in a Time Error sense. What I mean is that Chronopolis is first sent back in time, and then when 1010 A.D. rolls around the first time the dimensions do not split but Serge still dies. Then, Kid is sent back in time to save him, which only then creates the split in 1010 A.D.

Thus, the two dimensions likely share an identical history before 1010 A.D., and this demonstrates that Chronopolis' appearance is not enough to stop Crono and co. from saving the world.

I think you're missing my point, which is OK because my point is very hard to grasp I think...

When the Time Crash first occurs (lets call that Time Error C, for Crash) and Chronopolis is sent back to 12000 BC, it has full use of the Frozen Flame.  Therefore, it can easily prevent Crono and Co. from investigating it, and manipulate them to preserve the history it has known, which is (in a nutshell) the destruction of Lavos.

Now, fast-forward to Time Error C+13004.  It's now 1004 AD, and Serge is bitten and being taken to Marbule by Wazuki and Miguel.  Schala hears him and blows them to Chronopolis.  Serge is made into an Arbiter, Miguel is trapped and Wazuki corrupted.  Remembering also that FATE has temporal links to itself in other time periods, I'm theorizing that the presence of an Arbiter not only locks the present 1004 AD FATE out of the Flame, but ALL versions of FATE present during any time - even 12000 BC.  So, what do we have now?  Time is in chaos, because FATE has existed for 13000 years and now lacks the ability to keep people oblivious to it.  That in itself could cause a dimensional split if you ask me - one dimension in which FATE keeps everything under control, and one in which it doesn't.  But, then Serge is killed and it doesn't matter anymore - FATE regains access and can keep things cool again.  Maybe Serge's death unified the dimensions?

Now, fast-forward again to Time Error C+13020.  Kid travels back in time to save Serge and, instead of Another World going to the DBT, Home World is just created as an alternate dimension.  Now we have the same situation as before, except that Serge isn't gonna die this time.  FATE is locked out of the Flame all throughout time, so in 12000 BC, it is powerless to manipulate the happenings around it and shield its existence.  So - two dimensions exist - one where Serge is dead and FATE has always been able to control the past, and one where Serge is alive and FATE can't do crap.  That would actually make the histories of Home and Another World different, and thus allows for Crono to fail killing Lavos in 12000 BC only in one dimension.  So, if Serge died, the dimensions would be unified once more, probably just resulting in Another World.  But, the Chrono Cross is used to that Serge can live AND FATE can somehow preserve history.  It's a crazy theory I know, but at least attempts to explain why there was a dimensional split and not just a new timeline.

And besides, Lavos exits his pocket dimension in 1999 A.D which means he would be subject to TTI there. While the Black Omen is the canon path, they are probably transported to 1999 A.D. at the end of it where they fight Lavos.

Maybe - I'm still not convinced Lavos gets TTI when coming from his pocket dimension to 1999 AD.  Is that really a form of time travel?

[Acacia Sgt]

I still think Chronopolis appears in 7,600 BC.

It was a remodeling plan that took place 10,000 years ago.

Okay, at the very least, El Nido was created in 7,600 BC.

Well, 8980 BC, if the 10,000 years time is from the moment they are right now, which would be 1,020 AD for the outside world, 11,020 AD to Chronopolis.

[Eske]

And besides, Lavos exits his pocket dimension in 1999 A.D which means he would be subject to TTI there. While the Black Omen is the canon path, they are probably transported to 1999 A.D. at the end of it where they fight Lavos.

Maybe - I'm still not convinced Lavos gets TTI when coming from his pocket dimension to 1999 AD.  Is that really a form of time travel?

The PD is supposed to be perpendicular to our timeline - so in a sense Lavos has access to all eras.  Its like how whenever Crono and Co. go to face Lavos, he is always fully mature.  That is the only way we will ever see him.  So if he ever leaves the PD, he inserts himself into the timeline.  That is a 5D move right there, so it should be protected by TTI. 
And if anyone would prefer to see it in terms of dimensions rather than time, I've already shown that DTI would have to exist - because in one of my examples above, a paradox would occur if it did not.

The way Crono and Co. time travel is similar - they go through gates that allow them to enter and exit the timeline.  Everytime they do so, they create an event protected by TTI.  Lavos just does things his own way:  instead of creating a gate and going through it, he disables something around him and then re-enables it when he is finished.

[killercactus]

I still think Chronopolis appears in 7,600 BC.

It was a remodeling plan that took place 10,000 years ago.

Okay, at the very least, El Nido was created in 7,600 BC.

Well, 8980 BC, if the 10,000 years time is from the moment they are right now, which would be 1,020 AD for the outside world, 11,020 AD to Chronopolis.

I wish I could find where on the site it talks about this... I think they also postulated that that quote from the ghost was just an estimate, not an actual length of 10,000 years.  Like when someone says "The dinosaurs lived a million years ago" or somethin.

[chrono eric]

Now, fast-forward to Time Error C+13004.  It's now 1004 AD, and Serge is bitten and being taken to Marbule by Wazuki and Miguel.  Schala hears him and blows them to Chronopolis.  Serge is made into an Arbiter, Miguel is trapped and Wazuki corrupted.  Remembering also that FATE has temporal links to itself in other time periods, I'm theorizing that the presence of an Arbiter not only locks the present 1004 AD FATE out of the Flame, but ALL versions of FATE present during any time - even 12000 BC.  So, what do we have now?  Time is in chaos, because FATE has existed for 13000 years and now lacks the ability to keep people oblivious to it.  That in itself could cause a dimensional split if you ask me - one dimension in which FATE keeps everything under control, and one in which it doesn't.  But, then Serge is killed and it doesn't matter anymore - FATE regains access and can keep things cool again.  Maybe Serge's death unified the dimensions?

Now, fast-forward again to Time Error C+13020.  Kid travels back in time to save Serge and, instead of Another World going to the DBT, Home World is just created as an alternate dimension.  Now we have the same situation as before, except that Serge isn't gonna die this time.  FATE is locked out of the Flame all throughout time, so in 12000 BC, it is powerless to manipulate the happenings around it and shield its existence.  So - two dimensions exist - one where Serge is dead and FATE has always been able to control the past, and one where Serge is alive and FATE can't do crap.  That would actually make the histories of Home and Another World different, and thus allows for Crono to fail killing Lavos in 12000 BC only in one dimension.  So, if Serge died, the dimensions would be unified once more, probably just resulting in Another World.  But, the Chrono Cross is used to that Serge can live AND FATE can somehow preserve history.  It's a crazy theory I know, but at least attempts to explain why there was a dimensional split and not just a new timeline.

OK you have worded this much more clearly now. However, I think there are some things wrong with this. The first thing would be the idea that the Arbiter locks out all versions of FATE from all time periods. It's a clever concept to be sure, but we know from Chronopolis that the Frozen Flame has had multiple Arbiters. If every Arbiter locked out all others across multiple time periods, then there could only be one possible Arbiter. And there were many, so I don't think this is what happened unfortunately.

Secondly, the histories in Home and Another World appear to only diverge after the time of the split in 1010 A.D. Due to circumstantial evidence from the game, every significant event that made the two dimensions different occurred after 1010 A.D., and events before 1010 A.D. are mentioned as having occurred the same in both worlds (such as the Fall of Guardia and the Acacia Dragoons having some sort of involvement in that, for example).

This second point is supported and perhaps solidly confirmed by the fact that the Sea of Eden transforms into the Dead Sea only in 1010 A.D., and that Miguel remembers being in Chronopolis for 4 years before that. If the dimensions had been fully split before then (having separate and not shared pasts) then the Dead Sea would have existed all along in Home World's past.

Now on to this:

Going off my original assumption that keeping TTI intact (Eske's idea) while doing away with TB after 1010 A.D (my idea that Eske agrees with) would create a duplication problem. We've already established that TB is likely not preserved in the Ideal Timeline after 1010 A.D. for time travel events that happened in one dimension but not the other. Eske proposed that TTI is still kept intact in the Ideal Timeline (see our discussion above). Now my example will attempt to prove why this produces a duplication problem.

Hypothetical example: Two dimensions, Home (X) and Another (Y) fuse to make one Ideal dimension (XY), and two time travellers, person X from Home World and person Y from Another World that are doppelgangers of each other fuse to create person XY in the Ideal timeline.

In Home World, person X first travels 5 years into the past to Time X-5, Time Error 0. Then he makes another time travel trip to time X-5-10 minutes, Time Error 1. Then he makes another time travel trip to time X-5-20 minutes, Time Error 2, ten minutes earlier.

In Another World, person Y (his doppelganger) never time travels at all.

At Time Error 3 the dimensions fuse to create the Ideal (XY) timeline and as per the script of Chrono Cross the individuals fuse in the two dimensions to create a new individual, person XY. We have already established in a prior post that TB would not be preserved for person XY in the new timeline.

If TTI is still preserved, then at Time X-5 person X will emerge due  to TTI and he will not disappear due to TB. At Time X-5-10 minutes person X will emerge due to TTI and once again he will not disappear. At Time X-5-20 minutes person X will appear again and he will likewise not disappear. Now you have 3 copies of person X and one copy of person XY (whether or not he can be treated as the same individual is irrelevant).

So you see, TB and TTI are like two sides of the same coin. If you have one, you have to have both, and if you do away with one for whatever reason, you do away with both.

So I stand by my original assertion that after 1010 A.D. in the new timeline, time travel events that happened in one dimension but not the other will not be preserved by TB or TTI or DB or DBT (see reasoning from a previous post).

Your thoughts, Eske?

EDIT: On second thought I don't see a reason why Person X couldn't still be subject to TB (the reason why person XY isn't is obvious), so I'm not too sure about my conclusion now. I'll still leave my example up for discussion though. Regardless, if person X and person XY can be the same person speaking in terms of matter and energy, then this would still create a duplication problem even if person X only appears once.

[chrono eric]

Sorry for the double post, it keeps screwing up whenever I try to edit my post for some reason.

I've thought a little bit about this, and the problem is analagous to normal instances of TTI and TB in that a version of a time traveller that appears due to TTI and the one that disappears due to time bastard are not the same person at all. In a single timeline (X), they can be thought of as person X (the one that appears from the original timeline due to TTI) and person X' (the one who exists in the new timeline X' that is shafted because of TB).

The difference in this case is that when the dimensions fuse to become XY it creates a conundrum for time travel events that happened in one dimension but not the other. Person XY is not the same person as person X, but person XY couldn't disappear due to TB. But does person X still appear then? This problem cannot be answered in terms of thinking about duplicates or paradoxes because person X and person XY do not necessarily have to be considered matter-energy copies of each other.

The only way to answer this is by thinking about a TTI event as a preservation not just of an individuals appearance in time but also in space and in a particular dimension.

In my original example, person X from Home World (dimension X) will never appear due to TTI in Another World (dimension Y) because he never crosses the dimensions. The TTI event is associated with a particular space and time and dimension. Now, dimension XY (Ideal World) is as different a dimension from dimension X (Home World) and dimension Y (Another World) and the Keystone dimension that it came from. It has a Time Error axis different from all three.

So in that respect, TTI would not be preserved for person X in the new dimension. I think that's the answer, and that you must think of TTI events as having an association to a particular time, space, and dimension. I don't think he would appear as per Eske's proposal. Thoughts, Eske?

[Eske]

Hypothetical example: Two dimensions, Home (X) and Another (Y) fuse to make one Ideal dimension (XY), and two time travellers, person X from Home World and person Y from Another World that are doppelgangers of each other fuse to create person XY in the Ideal timeline.

In Home World, person X first travels 5 years into the past to Time X-5, Time Error 0. Then he makes another time travel trip to time X-5-10 minutes, Time Error 1. Then he makes another time travel trip to time X-5-20 minutes, Time Error 2, ten minutes earlier.

In Another World, person Y (his doppelganger) never time travels at all.

At Time Error 3 the dimensions fuse to create the Ideal (XY) timeline and as per the script of Chrono Cross the individuals fuse in the two dimensions to create a new individual, person XY. We have already established in a prior post that TB would not be preserved for person XY in the new timeline.

If TTI is still preserved, then at Time X-5 person X will emerge due to TTI and he will not disappear due to TB. At Time X-5-10 minutes person X will emerge due to TTI and once again he will not disappear. At Time X-5-20 minutes person X will appear again and he will likewise not disappear. Now you have 3 copies of person X and one copy of person XY (whether or not he can be treated as the same individual is irrelevant).

So you see, TB and TTI are like two sides of the same coin. If you have one, you have to have both, and if you do away with one for whatever reason, you do away with both.

So I stand by my original assertion that after 1010 A.D. in the new timeline, time travel events that happened in one dimension but not the other will not be preserved by TB or TTI or DB or DBT (see reasoning from a previous post).

Your thoughts, Eske?

*takes gloves off* lol.

X in D1 = Y in D2
Y remains stationary
X, at TE 0 remains stationary. Dimensions split and reunify and nothing happens differently.
X, at TE 1 enters a time gate to Time X-5.
X, at TE 2 enters a time gate to Time X-6
X, at TE 3 enters a time gate to Time X-7
X, at TE 4 is eliminated because dimensions reunify.

Alright, I just simplified it for myself there, now lets see:

All I said is that XY was not subject to TB.  But that doesn't mean the others aren't.

At Time Error+5:
X will appear in X-7.  He will vanish when he is combined with Y --  7 years later.
X will appear in X-6.  He will vanish when he does or should have entered the gate to X-7. (TB'ed)
X will appear in X-5.  He will vanish when he does or should have entered the gate to X-6. (TB'ed)

Why?   At Time X, when the dimensions reunify, X and Y will combine if they are available.  If only one is there, only that one will be in the ideal timeline. If neither are there, they will both remain dead.

The problem arises when X travels to the future.  He can only travel to the future of his dimension (much like how Crono could only travel to Another World's future).   
But that's all I have so far.  I need some more time, haha

I will find a way   

[chrono eric]

Yeah you always simplify my examples to make them better  .

I think, however, that my proposal in my second post that TTI events are associated with a particular time, space, and dimension is very important and likely will answer this problem.

To use your format:

At TE 0 there is one dimension (Keystone for simplicity, or dimension K)

At TE 1 there are now two (split from the one) - Another World (dimension Y) and Home World (dimension X)

At TE 2 there is now one dimension again (Ideal Timeline) - dimension XY, not dimension K again.


When the dimensions fuse they become a completely new dimension because they are associated with a different TE axis. ie: dimension K does not equal dimension XY.

I believe this is important in the case of time travel events that occurred individually in either dimension X or dimension Y.

I'll restate my example from my above post in a simpler format like this:

A TTI event is associated with a particular time, space, and dimension. When person X time travels to the past in dimension X, he never appears due to TTI in dimension Y because X is a different dimension from Y, and because TTI events are associated with a particular dimension.

By that reasoning, dimension XY is a different dimension from both X and Y and the TTI event should not be preserved there either.

Note that this holds ramifications only for dimension XY (Ideal World) after 1010 A.D. since the nature of the split suggests that the two dimensions share their history with Keystone (dimension K) before 1010 A.D., thus preserving TB and TTI events before then and Crono and co.'s time travelling adventure.

Also note that the nature of the split suggests that Crono and co's future time travelling events (appearing in 1999 A.D, 2300 A.D) are probably preserved in Another World since the future is still saved, and so Another World can potentially be viewed as the same dimension as dimension K (keystone), not a separate dimension Y, and Home World (dimension X) is an offshoot of it.

Either way you want to look at it (this way is slightly better as it explains why time travel events are preserved in one dimension but not the other after the split), my example still works.

EDIT: Shit! I just realized that this concept has huge ramifications for unravelling parts of the plot of Chrono Cross. This could be an entire thread by itself! It directly explains why Crono and co. can't save the future in Home World - because it's impossible for them to appear there due to TTI being associated with a particular dimension!

[Eske]

Yeah you always simplify my examples to make them better .

I think, however, that my proposal in my second post that TTI events are associated with a particular time, space, and dimension is very important and likely will answer this problem.

To use your format:

At TE 0 there is one dimension (Keystone for simplicity, or dimension K)

At TE 1 there are now two (split from the one) - Another World (dimension Y) and Home World (dimension X)

At TE 2 there is now one dimension again (Ideal Timeline) - dimension XY, not dimension K again.


When the dimensions fuse they become a completely new dimension because they are associated with a different TE axis. ie: dimension K does not equal dimension XY.

I believe this is important in the case of time travel events that occurred individually in either dimension X or dimension Y.

I'll restate my example from my above post in a simpler format like this:

A TTI event is associated with a particular time, space, and dimension. When person X time travels to the past in dimension X, he never appears due to TTI in dimension Y because X is a different dimension from Y, and because TTI events are associated with a particular dimension.

By that reasoning, dimension XY is a different dimension from both X and Y and the TTI event should not be preserved there either.

Note that this holds ramifications only for dimension XY (Ideal World) after 1010 A.D. since the nature of the split suggests that the two dimensions share their history with Keystone (dimension K) before 1010 A.D., thus preserving TB and TTI events before then and Crono and co.'s time travelling adventure.

Also note that the nature of the split suggests that Crono and co's future time travelling events (appearing in 1999 A.D, 2300 A.D) are probably preserved in Another World since the future is still saved, and so Another World can potentially be viewed as the same dimension as dimension K (keystone), not a separate dimension Y, and Home World (dimension X) is an offshoot of it.

Either way you want to look at it (this way is slightly better as it explains why time travel events are preserved in one dimension but not the other after the split), my example still works.

EDIT: Shit! I just realized that this concept has huge ramifications for unravelling parts of the plot of Chrono Cross. This could be an entire thread by itself! It directly explains why Crono and co. can't save the future in Home World - because it's impossible for them to appear there due to TTI being associated with a particular dimension!

The do share the same history but... In 1000AD there was only one dimension. So, only one version of Crono and Co. could appear to defeat Lavos in 1999AD.  Another world represents the original timeline in which Schala did not intervene and Serge died.  So, Crono and Co. only appeared through the gate to 1999AD in Another World, leaving Home World for dead.   Even better is that because of this, we know that no version of Crono ever ended up in the bright future - making a small case for Time Bastard, if you think about it.

Yep I know lol ( just had to be a jerk  )

But if you add dimension to time traveling coordinates that means that Crono and Co. never defeat Lavos in 1999AD in the Ideal Timeline.

--

RU = Reunification

My idea is this:  When the dimensions reunify, what do they do with the extra information?  Only parts of Persons A and B will be kept when their consciousnesses merge, so what happens with the rest?   Matter cannot be created or destroyed, so when the dimensions fuse together, some information must be sent to the DBT.  Personality traits, scars, memories, etc.

If Person B remains stationary and Person A travels to the past - whether or not Person A dies in the past or lives to the RU point is inconsequential, as I stated in my previous post.

If Person A travels before the RU point and ends up in the future after the RU point, they will be sent to the DBT as they arrive in this future.

why?

I say that when the dimensions combine, counterparts combine and some value (say 50/50) is preserved from each.
In the above case, Person A is missing during RU and only Person B becomes the new entity  Person AB.

Person AB = Person A (0%), Person B (100%)

So when Person A appears in the future, he will literally be extra information.  That violates Conservation, so I propose that like the "splicing" that goes on during RU,   Person A will be sent to the DBT simultaneously as he arrives in the future.

[chrono eric]

Yep I know lol ( just had to be a jerk  )

But if you add dimension to time traveling coordinates that means that Crono and Co. never defeat Lavos in 1999AD in the Ideal Timeline.

Well at least I think my explanation gives a solid theoretical reason why he wouldn't appear, instead of just "there's only one copy of them" which I've always felt was lacking.
 

You raise an interesting point here though. I didn't think that through all the way (that's the good of discussions!). My explanation would certainly mean that Crono and co. would not appear in 1999 A.D. to defeat Lavos if that is truly when it happens. But interestingly, if Lavos is protected by TTI, then it means that Lavos himself wouldn't even emerge in 1999 A.D. to destroy the world if you think about it! The only way he would still destroy the world in my scenario is if he re-emerged from his pocket dimension as a new time travel event. Which adds another layer of complexity to things...especially if placidchap is correct from another thread around here that the pocket dimension doesn't even exist anymore in the current timeline. If that is so, then Lavos would not emerge and the future would still be saved!

But the concept itself is solid I think. There would have to be a dimensional coordinate to TTI events.

Think about that in the meantime. As for the rest of what you said...I'll comment on that after I think about it and grab some much needed grub.

[Eske]

Ah but if Lavos can't appear in 1999AD then Home World's future wouldn't be threatened either.

As for my example earlier let me make it more clear.

Every point on the timeline is like a completed puzzle.  Every piece has to be accounted for eventually.
At the RU point, Person A was in the midst of travelling to the future, so one piece of the puzzle is missing. Thus the new Person AB is now made up of entirely Person B.   The structure of the puzzles from this point on change to only support Person AB and not the counterparts that create him.
So, every subsequent moment marches on and with each moment new, completed puzzles are created.
Finally, in the future, a puzzle is created with an extra piece. This piece is Person A.  This piece is no longer needed and is thus discarded - but now all puzzle pieces from all puzzles are accounted for again.

Its like TB/DB, in that it prevents extra information.

[killercactus]

I can't remember exactly what happens in Cross, but are we sure that Belthasar doesn't appear in 2300 AD Home World?  He's the only other person I can think of that would be protected by TTI in the future.  I don't seem to remember him in Home World - only Another World.

And, about Arbiters - we don't have proof that anyone was an Arbiter to the Frozen Flame besides Serge.  There are theories that Schala and even Belthasar were, but nothing else.  It's the only special thing I can come up with about Serge - other than that, he's just some kid.  There must be a connection between his Arbiter status and the dimensional split beyond that it was the reason he died.  His survival only means one thing - that FATE is locked out of the Flame again at least in the present in Home World, and that leads to the destruction of the world by Lavos.  But, I guess that discssion is for another thread.

[Acacia Sgt]

Look at the Dead Sea. Would Belthasar will be able to do something in that near-frozen place?

[Eske]

I can't remember exactly what happens in Cross, but are we sure that Belthasar doesn't appear in 2300 AD Home World?  He's the only other person I can think of that would be protected by TTI in the future.  I don't seem to remember him in Home World - only Another World.

And, about Arbiters - we don't have proof that anyone was an Arbiter to the Frozen Flame besides Serge.  There are theories that Schala and even Belthasar were, but nothing else.  It's the only special thing I can come up with about Serge - other than that, he's just some kid.  There must be a connection between his Arbiter status and the dimensional split beyond that it was the reason he died.  His survival only means one thing - that FATE is locked out of the Flame again at least in the present in Home World, and that leads to the destruction of the world by Lavos.  But, I guess that discssion is for another thread.

I haven't played the game in awhile so I don't know where Belthasar appears.  But if its only in Another World, it supports chrono eric's theory:  No TTI events after 1010AD were preserved in Home World/Ideal Timeline.    If Belthasar appears in Home World, then we have more issues.