Ladies And Gentlemen, We Have A Wiki

[Ziggyzoozoo]

Alright so let me introduce myself. I am Richard1990 from Wikia, who is also the current sole administrator at the Chrono Wiki. Incidentlly, I noticed that some users were coming to the Chrono Wiki from Chrono Compendium, and it seems like this must be where the visits are coming from due to the link in the first post. I just wanted to post in here to make some misconceptions clear.

Private fansites / Wikis will do it better than Wikia every single time because of one reason:

Copyright.

We can have as many images and as much content as we want. Wikia can't, because everything has to be fair use.

This is not entirely true. Wikipedia says: "Fair use is a doctrine in United States copyright law that allows limited use of copyrighted material without requiring permission from the rights holders, such as use for scholarship or review." Now, last time I checked, the images from the Chrono series are copyrighted by Square Enix, meaning even Chrono Compendium has to use images under fair use, as Chrono Compendium does not own screenshots or artwork, Square Enix does. Generally, for wikis, this just means the images have to be in low quality or file size. Wikia does not really enforce a "fair use" rule either; this is up to the community to decide.

Now, the main reason I founded the Chrono Wiki was I saw that there was no wiki for the Chrono series. I founded the wiki in July 2008. Eventually, I found Chrono Compendium and noticed that its Encyclopedia uses MediaWiki. However, I also noticed editing has been restricted to very few users. Wikis are meant to be edited by anybody, and seeing that Chrono Compendium is allowing only a certain number of editors to edit, I was disappointed at this. I did not make the wiki to compete with Chrono Compendium; I made it so that there's an enecylopedia for the Chrono series that anyone can truly edit. I really do hope that the Chrono Wiki does not compete with Chrono Compendium; I have nothing against Chrono Compendium.

The amount of text copied verbatim from the Compendium encyclopedia appears to be significant. Good examples are the Organizations, Peoples, and Species articles. A lot of these pages can be traced back to a user named Dede-11. I don't see much in the way of attribution, either.

To be fair, they do also have some original (or at least different) articles.

I apologize if this has happened and will change those articles later. I do not want the Chrono Wiki to be a copy of Chrono Compendium. All the content I add to the wiki is created by me using scripts on GameFAQs and a SNES ROM as references because I can't remember every single thing said in the games. Some users may see that Chrono Compendium has better quality articles and copy and past them over to the Chrono Wiki. I can't do much about that other than ask the user to stop and revert the users edits. Hopefully the Chrono Wiki will have a larger community soon and we won't have this problem.

I already said something about this place somewhere else in the forums...

I was one of the first few people to begin editing at that wiki and did a hell of a lot there. But everything always got edited by someone else into a lesser version, so there wasn't any point in me actually doing pages since people would always then procede to jump in and completely revamp my stuff. My sole exceptions for te longest time were Serge, Cyrus, and Spekkio which eventually of course got messed with(although Cyrus was messed with less than the others).

I might've stayed but the main person who (suppossed)to do the majority updates and is in charge of the whole place never shows up. That main page has stayed the same for a looooooooong time now. So I left and came here.

Like I said, wikis are meant to be edited. If you can't handle many people completely changing your edits, then a wiki is not for you. Just because I am an admistrator does not mean I am supposed "to do the majority updates"; wikis thrive on communities, meaning every single person who edits a wiki has the potential to completely change the wiki. I also am not really "in charge of the whole place"; the community is in charge of the wiki, meaning the community decides what can/cannot be done. Anyway, I'm contributing to the Chrono Wiki again, though I'm still busy in real life so I edit fairly infrequently. If you look at the recent changes, you can see all the work that I am doing. Right now it's mainly getting some articles going with some info so that there's at least some place to start for new users. I hope to attract more users by doing some community outreach soon.

Anyway, it's cool that people are finding the wiki.

[Ziggyzoozoo]

Whoops accidently hit the "Quote" button rather than "Modify", sorry.

[ZeaLitY]

This is not entirely true. Wikipedia says: "Fair use is a doctrine in United States copyright law that allows limited use of copyrighted material without requiring permission from the rights holders, such as use for scholarship or review." Now, last time I checked, the images from the Chrono series are copyrighted by Square Enix, meaning even Chrono Compendium has to use images under fair use, as Chrono Compendium does not own screenshots or artwork, Square Enix does. Generally, for wikis, this just means the images have to be in low quality or file size. Wikia does not really enforce a "fair use" rule either; this is up to the community to decide.

But we do it on a much more profound level. We're linking to game hacks, 95% of the games' art assets (including all the backgrounds of the games at native resolution and character art at the highest resolution we can get), music remixes, sheet music, and in several cases, copyrighted works, such as the extra tracks Tsuyoshi Sekito composed for the PSX release. I'm sure at some point, it'd be crossing the Wikia line.

[Luminaire85]

@Ziggyzoozoo:

Your wiki is a Chrono fan project, and as such, it suffers from the problems that all Chrono fan projects have. Even the "good" projects - those with an attainable goal and a passionate and capable leader - will struggle to attract the talent and resources needed to achieve critical mass, let alone finish successfully. There's only so many good people around, and the more projects there are, the harder it is for everyone to attract such people.

One reason the Compendium has been so successful is the effort of its leaders. I've lurked for a number of years now - that makes me feel old - and ZeaLitY has consistently demonstrated an otherworldly passion for all things Chrono. He is committed to making the Compendium the resource for all things Chrono. Similarly, the immense success we've had with Trigger and Cross hacking is due to a team of committed people, who I will avoid naming in fear that I might forget one.

In general, fan project leaders can and should expect to shoulder the vast majority of the burden, especially in the early going, but continuing throughout the project. I think Chrono Wiki would be no exception.

As for Chrono Wiki itself, I find myself wanting to talk you out of it. Is open community access really so valuable in such a small community? My impression is that the information is the most important thing, and the amount of effort required to duplicate the Compendium's encyclopedia would be quite large.

You might find this thread and this thread valuable reading. From the latter:

Unfortunately, the community size never reached the critical mass needed to sustain a real wiki without fear of vandalism or other problems, so we closed it after the first few years to avoid problems, but that left us with some garbage and poorly edited (or never edited) contributed text.

However, if you want to rewrite part of something, feel free to post a link (as you just did) and your version of the text. Someone should notice and make the change.

And from the former:

The problem is splitting viewership among two sites and also splitting authority. The only feasible "split" regarding anything is the shearing of fan works off from the Compendium to the ChronoFan label, which would be a site more geared towards showcasing fan creation (as opposed to the Compendium's system of manually adding stuff to the encyclopedia or creating features). It's still hard to gauge what kind of difference that would make on popularity.

But to make an encyclopedia is like keeping two sets of records for an organization. The Chrono encyclopedia was open for quite some time, and hardly anyone contributed outside KWhazit and Leebot, who did Accessories (Chrono Trigger) and Weapons (Chrono Cross). Only when I finished it myself did we close it off forever because it was obvious that my touch was the only way to get it done.

So whatever other Wiki that exists out there will always, always be inferior to this one. Even if it were an independent project different from the Compendium, if it ever did something better than we do, I would immediately update our own pages to make us better than them in term. That's the "demon workaholic overseer" mentality that Ramsus spoke of and the Compendium motto, "supero omnia". This is all IF anyone contributed to the Wiki, and judging from our own track record and the fact that getting anyone to do anything for a collaborative project in the Chrono community is like pushing a boulder up a hill, any new site or Wiki would probably just sit there in emptiness.

If you want amazing ways to promote the Chrono series and the Compendium, start thinking. There is only so much we can do. Crimson Echoes or a fan sequel will get a lot of attention, just as Wikipedia will. But there isn't much else.

Now I don't mean to discourage you. The Chrono community needs all the passionate fan creators it can get! But my opinion is that your efforts would be better placed elsewhere. I also don't intend to single you and/or your project out. Understand that here we see so many fan project proposals that are neat ideas but untenable for one or more - occasionally many more - reasons, and so quickly and counterproductively fall apart. I have unfortunately been involved with multiple of these, hence my inherent skepticism.

[Ramsus]

Alright so let me introduce myself. I am Richard1990 from Wikia, who is also the current sole administrator at the Chrono Wiki. Incidentlly, I noticed that some users were coming to the Chrono Wiki from Chrono Compendium, and it seems like this must be where the visits are coming from due to the link in the first post. I just wanted to post in here to make some misconceptions clear.

Private fansites / Wikis will do it better than Wikia every single time because of one reason:

Copyright.

We can have as many images and as much content as we want. Wikia can't, because everything has to be fair use.

This is not entirely true. Wikipedia says: "Fair use is a doctrine in United States copyright law that allows limited use of copyrighted material without requiring permission from the rights holders, such as use for scholarship or review." Now, last time I checked, the images from the Chrono series are copyrighted by Square Enix, meaning even Chrono Compendium has to use images under fair use, as Chrono Compendium does not own screenshots or artwork, Square Enix does. Generally, for wikis, this just means the images have to be in low quality or file size. Wikia does not really enforce a "fair use" rule either; this is up to the community to decide.

Now, the main reason I founded the Chrono Wiki was I saw that there was no wiki for the Chrono series. I founded the wiki in July 2008. Eventually, I found Chrono Compendium and noticed that its Encyclopedia uses MediaWiki. However, I also noticed editing has been restricted to very few users. Wikis are meant to be edited by anybody, and seeing that Chrono Compendium is allowing only a certain number of editors to edit, I was disappointed at this. I did not make the wiki to compete with Chrono Compendium; I made it so that there's an enecylopedia for the Chrono series that anyone can truly edit. I really do hope that the Chrono Wiki does not compete with Chrono Compendium; I have nothing against Chrono Compendium.

The amount of text copied verbatim from the Compendium encyclopedia appears to be significant. Good examples are the Organizations, Peoples, and Species articles. A lot of these pages can be traced back to a user named Dede-11. I don't see much in the way of attribution, either.

To be fair, they do also have some original (or at least different) articles.

I apologize if this has happened and will change those articles later. I do not want the Chrono Wiki to be a copy of Chrono Compendium. All the content I add to the wiki is created by me using scripts on GameFAQs and a SNES ROM as references because I can't remember every single thing said in the games. Some users may see that Chrono Compendium has better quality articles and copy and past them over to the Chrono Wiki. I can't do much about that other than ask the user to stop and revert the users edits. Hopefully the Chrono Wiki will have a larger community soon and we won't have this problem.

I already said something about this place somewhere else in the forums...

I was one of the first few people to begin editing at that wiki and did a hell of a lot there. But everything always got edited by someone else into a lesser version, so there wasn't any point in me actually doing pages since people would always then procede to jump in and completely revamp my stuff. My sole exceptions for te longest time were Serge, Cyrus, and Spekkio which eventually of course got messed with(although Cyrus was messed with less than the others).

I might've stayed but the main person who (suppossed)to do the majority updates and is in charge of the whole place never shows up. That main page has stayed the same for a looooooooong time now. So I left and came here.

Like I said, wikis are meant to be edited. If you can't handle many people completely changing your edits, then a wiki is not for you. Just because I am an admistrator does not mean I am supposed "to do the majority updates"; wikis thrive on communities, meaning every single person who edits a wiki has the potential to completely change the wiki. I also am not really "in charge of the whole place"; the community is in charge of the wiki, meaning the community decides what can/cannot be done. Anyway, I'm contributing to the Chrono Wiki again, though I'm still busy in real life so I edit fairly infrequently. If you look at the recent changes, you can see all the work that I am doing. Right now it's mainly getting some articles going with some info so that there's at least some place to start for new users. I hope to attract more users by doing some community outreach soon.

Anyway, it's cool that people are finding the wiki.

So then, if we invited the entire community to continue editing our Encyclopedia by removing the registration ban and allowing anonymous edits, with the promise that in the future, our content would always remain freely accessible and available to edit or re-use, would you be satisfied enough to continue your work here instead of at Wikia?

Access has only remained closed, because nobody's seriously asked us about opening it up. The few people interested in editing things have usually gotten accounts, and I'm not at all opposed to the idea of completely opening the site up at this point, as long as there's enough people interested. All it would really involve now is changing two lines of settings in a config file, since the current site template includes the wiki editing features in its layout. We do regular backups too, so vandalism isn't too big of a concern.


Given that the spirit of the wiki concept is communication, it would be sad to see people go off and duplicate all of the hard work of the Compendium's Encyclopedia, while at the same time our content fails to be maintained, simply due to a lack of communication.

[Delta Dragon]

I came across this place a couple months ago and quickly decided that it was kind of pathetic compared to the Compendium.  Then again it's possible it's improved a bit, but I still doubt it's near as good as this place.

[ONSLAUGHT]

I already said something about this place somewhere else in the forums...

I was one of the first few people to begin editing at that wiki and did a hell of a lot there. But everything always got edited by someone else into a lesser version, so there wasn't any point in me actually doing pages since people would always then procede to jump in and completely revamp my stuff. My sole exceptions for te longest time were Serge, Cyrus, and Spekkio which eventually of course got messed with(although Cyrus was messed with less than the others).

I might've stayed but the main person who (suppossed)to do the majority updates and is in charge of the whole place never shows up. That main page has stayed the same for a looooooooong time now. So I left and came here.

Like I said, wikis are meant to be edited. If you can't handle many people completely changing your edits, then a wiki is not for you. Just because I am an admistrator does not mean I am supposed "to do the majority updates"; wikis thrive on communities, meaning every single person who edits a wiki has the potential to completely change the wiki. I also am not really "in charge of the whole place"; the community is in charge of the wiki, meaning the community decides what can/cannot be done. Anyway, I'm contributing to the Chrono Wiki again, though I'm still busy in real life so I edit fairly infrequently. If you look at the recent changes, you can see all the work that I am doing. Right now it's mainly getting some articles going with some info so that there's at least some place to start for new users. I hope to attract more users by doing some community outreach soon.

When I mean majority updates I mean the main page stuff. No one ever really messed with that except you. I changed it a few times, only to get it changed right back into what it was exactly before.

As for the changes to my pages, I understand anyone can change. What bugged me always was that I would have the full information on a character or time period, you'd know them in the game perfectly, and if it had spoilers, alright then spoiler warnings put up. But then someone would make it go from a wiki looking page of about 8 paragraphs to a kiddie 2-3 paragraphs. My Glenn article(worked REALLY hard on it)got outright deleted(not by you but someone else)and it had a good 5 paragraphs and statistics and information and everything. All for a simple two short sentenc eparagraph on Glenn from Chrono Trigger. That was when I left. I came back once or twice to help but, same thing happened. Except it went from a single paragraph of mine to a single sentence.

Way i saw it, fine if it can be edited by everyone I don't care but if you're going to edit it, shouldn't it be decent edit that will take out unncessary info rather than what's good info? Instead of just leaving it as nothing more than what you get from the instruction manual?

I came across this place a couple months ago and quickly decided that it was kind of pathetic compared to the Compendium.  Then again it's possible it's improved a bit, but I still doubt it's near as good as this place.

I might've gone back but, I kinda agree with this statement after discovering the vast encyclopedia here. The quality you find here is what you'd find in my stuff and I'm happy with that.

[Ziggyzoozoo]

But we do it on a much more profound level. We're linking to game hacks, 95% of the games' art assets (including all the backgrounds of the games at native resolution and character art at the highest resolution we can get), music remixes, sheet music, and in several cases, copyrighted works, such as the extra tracks Tsuyoshi Sekito composed for the PSX release. I'm sure at some point, it'd be crossing the Wikia line.

Somewhat, mainly because Wikia isn't set up to host files such as sheet music or music due to the only permitted file types being gif, ico, jl, jpeg, jpg, mid, odc, odf, odg, odi, odm, odp, ods, odt, ogg, pdf, png, svg and xcf (no avi, mp3, etc. though I think they can be requested). Wikis generaly aren't meant to host large files anyway, though it is possible.

Your wiki is a Chrono fan project, and as such, it suffers from the problems that all Chrono fan projects have. Even the "good" projects - those with an attainable goal and a passionate and capable leader - will struggle to attract the talent and resources needed to achieve critical mass, let alone finish successfully. There's only so many good people around, and the more projects there are, the harder it is for everyone to attract such people.

One reason the Compendium has been so successful is the effort of its leaders. I've lurked for a number of years now - that makes me feel old Shocked - and ZeaLitY has consistently demonstrated an otherworldly passion for all things Chrono. He is committed to making the Compendium the resource for all things Chrono. Similarly, the immense success we've had with Trigger and Cross hacking is due to a team of committed people, who I will avoid naming in fear that I might forget one.

In general, fan project leaders can and should expect to shoulder the vast majority of the burden, especially in the early going, but continuing throughout the project. I think Chrono Wiki would be no exception.

As for Chrono Wiki itself, I find myself wanting to talk you out of it. Is open community access really so valuable in such a small community? My impression is that the information is the most important thing, and the amount of effort required to duplicate the Compendium's encyclopedia would be quite large.

That's fine. I'm used to small wikis, have lots of experience with them, and I'm sure it will all work out  I don't mind doing everything on my own, I usually do everything on my own anyway because I'm a perfectionist.

So then, if we invited the entire community to continue editing our Encyclopedia by removing the registration ban and allowing anonymous edits, with the promise that in the future, our content would always remain freely accessible and available to edit or re-use, would you be satisfied enough to continue your work here instead of at Wikia?

Access has only remained closed, because nobody's seriously asked us about opening it up. The few people interested in editing things have usually gotten accounts, and I'm not at all opposed to the idea of completely opening the site up at this point, as long as there's enough people interested. All it would really involve now is changing two lines of settings in a config file, since the current site template includes the wiki editing features in its layout. We do regular backups too, so vandalism isn't too big of a concern.


Given that the spirit of the wiki concept is communication, it would be sad to see people go off and duplicate all of the hard work of the Compendium's Encyclopedia, while at the same time our content fails to be maintained, simply due to a lack of communication.

Like I said, the Chrono Wiki will not be duplicating "all the hard of the Compendium's encyclopedia". And even if the restrictions were lifted, I would still say at the Chrono Wiki just because I founded it and want to see it grow like every other wiki I contribute to.

I came across this place a couple months ago and quickly decided that it was kind of pathetic compared to the Compendium.  Then again it's possible it's improved a bit, but I still doubt it's near as good as this place.

I admit its pretty bad right now, but I'm sure it will be fairly informative in a few months 

Anyway you guys can keep doing what you want, and I'll keep doing what I want with the Chrono Wiki, and making sure it doesn't steal content from Chrono Compendium.

[Boo the Gentleman Caller]

Hey guys, the more the merrier!  The more possibility we have to spread the Chronoverse, the better.  Although some might prefer the format of the Compendium, I'm sure there are others out there who would feel more comfortable with the more traditional wiki format.  Either way, if it supports the Chrono series we should all be in support!

Let's all just be realistic!

[idioticidioms]

I tried starting an idiotic idioms wiki, but they told me I needed more information, lol.

[Ramsus]

Like I said, the Chrono Wiki will not be duplicating "all the hard of the Compendium's encyclopedia". And even if the restrictions were lifted, I would still say at the Chrono Wiki just because I founded it and want to see it grow like every other wiki I contribute to.

In other words, you only believe in the wiki concept in-so-much as it applies to you creating something new on your own, or with your oversight and guidance.

Given that, I think it's misleading to justify your endeavor based on the virtues inherent within open, community-driven wikis, especially when you'd turn down the offer to help spearhead turning our wiki back into a more community-driven endeavor to the benefit of larger, existing community.

Also, just how wouldn't the Chrono Wiki be duplicating the work here, or from any other Chrono fansite? What would you do that hasn't been done by someone else? The way I see it, instead of saying, "Oh, we won't be doing the same thing!", you should focus on what it is that you will be doing and why.

Finally, you might try being more honest with yourself in regards to your motivation and interest in starting a new Chrono wiki. I'm pretty sure, based on what you've said here, that you're simply doing this for the fun of it, and to build an interesting new community. Everything else is just a rationalized justification to still make a case for people to join your wiki while avoiding some sort of confrontation.

However, whether you want it or not, you're now our competition. I suggest embracing the idea rather than pretending that it isn't so.

[Jutty]

Like I said, the Chrono Wiki will not be duplicating "all the hard of the Compendium's encyclopedia". And even if the restrictions were lifted, I would still say at the Chrono Wiki just because I founded it and want to see it grow like every other wiki I contribute to.

In other words, you only believe in the wiki concept in-so-much as it applies to you creating something new on your own, or with your oversight and guidance.

Given that, I think it's misleading to justify your endeavor based on the virtues inherent within open, community-driven wikis, especially when you'd turn down the offer to help spearhead turning our wiki back into a more community-driven endeavor to the benefit of larger, existing community.

Also, just how wouldn't the Chrono Wiki be duplicating the work here, or from any other Chrono fansite? What would you do that hasn't been done by someone else? The way I see it, instead of saying, "Oh, we won't be doing the same thing!", you should focus on what it is that you will be doing and why.

Finally, you might try being more honest with yourself in regards to your motivation and interest in starting a new Chrono wiki. I'm pretty sure, based on what you've said here, that you're simply doing this for the fun of it, and to build an interesting new community. Everything else is just a rationalized justification to still make a case for people to join your wiki while avoiding some sort of confrontation.

However, whether you want it or not, you're now our competition. I suggest embracing the idea rather than pretending that it isn't so.

I was going to state the same thing more or less, but didn't want to be confrontational .