Black Omen not from 12,000BC?!

[Eske]

It doesn't appear to be below the sea.  We just see "space wobbling" where the Omen is appearing.

Why would Lucca mention an "enormous gate" if its just rising from the ocean?

We see the outline, lightning appears, the Omen starts to flicker, then the camera switches to a close up of the top where we see the Omen as it fully phases in.

If that is supposed to be "rising from the water", then I'm confused as to why they would use such animation.  No splashing, no whirlpool, no text like "omg what's that in the ocean!"  - instead we have:  "omg a big gate."

[Acacia Sgt]

Of course, it is not under the sea. So then, why bother with it, move it to the sky?

[Eske]

Of course, it is not under the sea. So then, why bother with it, move it to the sky?

I'm not exactly sure what that means.  But if you are asking "why move it to the sky?" then I would speculate that in the future, because Lavos is no longer deep within the earth, another undersea construct would be inefficient for absorbing his power.  Also, if the Black Omen was built on land, and simultaneously appeared in all eras after 12000 BC, it would phase in  inside buildings and mountains, oceans, people, etc all throughout different eras  because continental drift in CT is rapid.  So, the air makes more sense.  Less chance of phasing into big objects.

[Acacia Sgt]

I see.

Although...

Simultaneously appeared in all eras after 12000 BC.

I don't think that's how the Omen appeared in the other eras.

[Eske]

I see.

Although...

Simultaneously appeared in all eras after 12000 BC.

I don't think that's how the Omen appeared in the other eras.

True. It makes more sense for the Omen to have made a single trip in time.
Though it creates somewhat of stalemate between the ideas that

 (idea 1)it was created/teleported to the sky in 12000BC

 (idea 2)it was created somewhere in the future and time travelled to 12000BC   

because...  (idea 1) if we destroy the Omen in 1000AD or 600AD we can fight it again in 12000BC because, as we know, killing a future version of something won't destroy a past version of it.

and, (idea 2) destroying the Omen in 1000AD or 600AD, even if the Omen is in a PD, wouldn't destroy the Omen in 12000BC because of TTI.

So I guess my idea now is something that I hope you guys will find reasonable: (though I'm not claiming anything)

Omen is created/made fully functional in ~2300AD to absorb more energy from Lavos right above Death Peak.
Omen warps back to 12000BC from Time X > 2300AD to prolong how much energy it can absorb from Lavos.
Omen has TTI for its appearance in 12,000 BC.
Omen is destroyed on the Day of Lavos 1999AD.
Omen Crono and Co. see in 2300AD is the Omen pre-time travel.

Speculation, of course. But I don't think its ridiculous.  I think it makes more sense than the entire undersea palace being severely reconstructed, having a whole bunch of new technology, and very strong mutants seemingly out of nowhere - all in a relatively short amount of time.

[Acacia Sgt]

Problems arise:

1) In a destroyed world, how will the Omen be built? Who will be capable of doing it? And, why would he/she will want to absorb Lavos's energy?

2) Why it isn't present in the Pre-Ocean Palace-Incident-With-Crono 2,300 AD?

3) The Omen always disappears of 2,300 AD no matter which past version is cleared first.

[chrono eric]

An additional problem (sorry Eske I usually agree with you!): Crono and co. are supposed to be the most recent versions of the time travellers, speaking from a Time Error standpoint. I'm assuming you are saying that the Black Omen was created in the future for some reason as a result of the direct intervention of Crono and co. in the Ocean Palace in 12,000 B.C? This would make sense since the Omen is not already there in 12,000 BC before they intervene.

But, since Crono and co. are the most present versions of the time travellers, there would have to be an intermediate timeline in which Lucca, Marle, etc. don't see the Omen rise in 12,000 B.C. Only when the point rolls around in the future that the Omen is built does it go back in time, sending that future to the DBT.

That's the primary reason why I think this is incorrect.

[Eske]

Problems arise:

1) In a destroyed world, how will the Omen be built? Who will be capable of doing it? And, why would he/she will want to absorb Lavos's energy?

2) Why it isn't present in the Pre-Ocean Palace-Incident-With-Crono 2,300 AD?

3) The Omen always disappears of 2,300 AD no matter which past version is cleared first.

1) We don't see any workers in the Black Omen anyway, just monsters, Queen Zeal and some two Nu fellows.

2) Time Error, things don't happen until they happen

3) And despite the above arguments here is where I fail haha.

back to the drawing board...

Well, looking at the alternative name for the Black Omen, the Black Dream, I suppose that Queen Zeal used Lavos's power to "will" it into existence.  Its like her personal playground.  The gateways that the mutants spawn from are probably just her willing more creatures into existence.   Also, we see no workers, or anything that could really qualify as a worker to reconstruct the ocean palace that fast.   

The damned thing didn't rise from the ocean, or that cutscene is just really messed up.

But yes, I concede that one way or another, the Black Omen was originally from 12,000BC.   

[chrono eric]

2) Time Error, things don't happen until they happen

Exactly, so there would be an intermediate timeline in which Marle and co. wouldn't see the Omen rise. It has to be from 12,000 B.C. for this reason alone.

[Eske]

2) Time Error, things don't happen until they happen

Exactly, so there would be an intermediate timeline in which Marle and co. wouldn't see the Omen rise. It has to be from 12,000 B.C. for this reason alone.

Yep.  At least Time Error proves it.   So the phasing in means something else.

[chrono eric]

I'm beginning to think that the original translation of "Black Dream" sheds light on this. Perhaps it really is a literal manifestation of Lavos and Queen Zeal's "dream", maybe called forth from Zurvan, the sea of dreams?. We know next to nothing about that place. It's only mentioned by Schala once but there is certainly reason to believe that the "dream beings" like Masa and Mune could have come from there. It could be a completely extra-temporal place like the DBT.

So, my idea is: The Black Omen is called forth from Zurvan, probably like Masa and Mune are, in 12,000 B.C. The inside of it works somewhat like a pocket dimension and has connections to all time periods (although probably just the door of the Omen is the connection point). It probably isn't shown in the 1999 A.D. animation for simplicity and game mechanics (why make two nearly identical animations to take up space?), and the Omen in 2300 A.D. is the same as the one in all other time periods.

[V_Translanka]

The last time we see Queen Zeal, shes with Lavos, not in the Ocean Palace.  Also, if you destroy the Black Omen in 1000AD or 600AD, Lavos will destroy the Omen but you can still go through it again.  So it can't directly transport you to 12000BC, because in this example, the 12000BC version remains intact.

When Zeal calls upon Lavos, regardless of which era you entered the Black Omen, you can clearly see that you're in 12,000BC...Also, I highly doubt that multiple runs through the Black Omen is canon.

At the very least you end any Black Omen run in 12,000BC...I personally believe you're supposed to go through the Black Omen, but then back out before Lavos' 2nd form & then punch into him with the Epoch because I see the Balloon Ending as the most canon.

I don't get it. Using the Epoch lets you skip the battles against the shell. Why defeat it, go back, and use the Epoch to force your way in if you have already done it?

I figure that the more damage against Lavos the better...and that Epoch also wants to help Crono & Co. against Lavos. I also figure they might think that if they go through the bucket that they'd have to defeat Lavos' 1st form again...

[Acacia Sgt]

But why go back? If they are already there, why not go and fight the inner core than pull back and keep damaging the shell?

[V_Translanka]

To further collect yourself & otherwise you wouldn't get to see what Gaspar says about Zeal...!

[Eske]

I'm beginning to think that the original translation of "Black Dream" sheds light on this. Perhaps it really is a literal manifestation of Lavos and Queen Zeal's "dream", maybe called forth from Zurvan, the sea of dreams?. We know next to nothing about that place. It's only mentioned by Schala once but there is certainly reason to believe that the "dream beings" like Masa and Mune could have come from there. It could be a completely extra-temporal place like the DBT.

So, my idea is: The Black Omen is called forth from Zurvan, probably like Masa and Mune are, in 12,000 B.C. The inside of it works somewhat like a pocket dimension and has connections to all time periods (although probably just the door of the Omen is the connection point). It probably isn't shown in the 1999 A.D. animation for simplicity and game mechanics (why make two nearly identical animations to take up space?), and the Omen in 2300 A.D. is the same as the one in all other time periods.

That works.  It ties in with my idea that Queen Zeal "wills" it into exitence. But relates better to the series, good job 
The Compendium holds that the Omen is "ageless", which, if it were a dream, would make sense.

You said earlier that there has to be an intermediate timeline for my old example to work.   But by that model we could never see anyone time travel besides ourselves (or our group)  or a group of people who time travelled to the same "time" before  we did in Time Error.

Time Error 0  nothing
Time Error 1  A travels from X to X-10
Time Error 2  B travels from X to X-10

A won't see  B time travel until the "second" time around.  This makes sense.

But

That would mean that every time something is added or taken away from the timeline, the remaining timeline needs to reset from that point.  That normally wouldnt be a problem but - what about when Lavos sends the gurus away via time gates? 

That is a 5D change, so it should send a future where the gurus do NOT vanish to the DBT, right?