Theory on Mammon Machine

[Zergplex]

Greetings everyone! My first post here so try to go easy on me, eh?

On my recent play through of CT:DS I got to analyzing something that always bothered me. When you view the Mammon Machine within the Black Omen it is obviously damaged and yet when Queen Zeal throws you into the Machine it is not only operational but capable of combat. Now I have thought many theories myself over the years to explain this, and I knows other theories have been posted here. This time through though I had a thought that had never occurred to me before that I believe makes more sense then anything else I had heard before (though if this theory had come up here before and been disproven then I apologize for wasting your time.)

Follow my lines of logic here. The Mammon Machine was created from Dreamstone by Melchior, the Guru of Life. Also created by the Melchior were the Masamune (or Grandleon if you prefer) and Schala's Pendant (which would eventual be passed down to Marle).

It seems all the dreamstone creations of Melchior were imbued with a life of their own, containing dream figments crafted from the "dream of Melchior". The Masamune contained the dream figments Masa and Mune which were the spirit of the blade. The Pendant contained dream figment  Doreen (though not explicitly stated it was implied in CC). Could the Mammon Machine fought in the Black Omen have been the dream figment, or spirit, of the destroyed Mammon Machine? It would explain why the creature Mammon Machine was in perfect shape (Masa and Mune at Denadoro Mountains weren't damaged in appearance even though their physical blade was snapped in half) and how it was able to combat the party even though the original Mammon Machine wasn't designed with combat in mind (Masa and Mune were pretty effective in combat themselves). In a stretch it could even explain why it was fought in the blue background (pocket dimension) normally attributed to Lavos as Dream figments often have strange powers (possibly the dream figment MM is what actually interfaced with Lavos's pocket dimension and gathered the energy, making the figment an intergral part of the actual design of the Machine. Or it generated it's own pocket dimension. Or the pocket dimension was formed by Zeal so she wouldn't have to sweep up the Black Omen after the battle. Who wants to do housework when you are busy destroying the world after all.)

What does everyone think of this theory? Does it have any basis or am I reaching here?

[Eske]

To me, the Mammon Machine battle was always the most confusing.  I guess the developers thought nothing of having a damaged version behind queen Zeal, followed by a fight with a restored version in an unknown location.    The easiest answer would be that they simply rebuilt the machine and it was relocated to that unknown place.  But was dreamstone still very plentiful in 12000BC?   We don't really know.  And there is zero evidence anything was rebuilt  (the structure of the Omen itself is quite different from the ocean palace in many ways - it looks more like it was mutated than built  -  plus the time factor makes it unlikely)

The real name of the Black Omen is the Black Dream.

Considering that, I think you might be on to something.  Who knows?  Expanding your idea, maybe the Black Dream and its contents (including the restored MM) are all Dream copies made by Queen Zeal's dreams imparted onto the old MM.   (It did contain an incredible amount of Lavos's energy before its destruction)

I'll support your theory       It's really good and opens up options for some Omen discussion. 

[Zergplex]

To me, the Mammon Machine battle was always the most confusing.  I guess the developers thought nothing of having a damaged version behind queen Zeal, followed by a fight with a restored version in an unknown location.    The easiest answer would be that they simply rebuilt the machine and it was relocated to that unknown place.  But was dreamstone still very plentiful in 12000BC?   We don't really know.  And there is zero evidence anything was rebuilt  (the structure of the Omen itself is quite different from the ocean palace in many ways - it looks more like it was mutated than built  -  plus the time factor makes it unlikely)

The damaged machine behind her always confused me. I like this theory much better then the Pocket Dimension theory (that a second Mammon Machine was built/sent to the pocket dimension to channel Lavos's energy). I see the need for the PD theory but I've never liked it, therefor I don't use it as a basis for my theories unless totally necessary. I feel this accounts for not just the repaired Mammon Machine but also it's ability to combat the party.

The real name of the Black Omen is the Black Dream.

Considering that, I think you might be on to something.  Who knows?  Expanding your idea, maybe the Black Dream and its contents (including the restored MM) are all Dream copies made by Queen Zeal's dreams imparted onto the old MM.   (It did contain an incredible amount of Lavos's energy before its destruction)

I'll support your theory       It's really good and opens up options for some Omen discussion. 

I could see the Black Omen (I do know the original name, but I prefer the translated name) being a creation of Zeal's willpower magnified by Lavos's power. I don't feel the Mammon Machine is then catalyst though, as it was already destroyed at the point that Lavos and Zeal have their love fest after the Ocean Palace incident. Otherwise the destruction of the Mammon Machine should have caused the breakdown of the Black Omen and not Zeal's death.

I always felt the Black Dream name wasn't refering to Zeal's dream, but instead Lavos's dream as he lay sleeping. Zeal was as much a part of Lavos's dream as the rest of the Omen. Killing Zeal broke the dream and woke Lavos from his slumber.

The Black Dream to me is Lavos's counterpart to the dream of the Planet (Entity) that directed the Crono's group on their quest. The Green Dream item to me is that promise from the planet to Crono, that even if you can't see the effect that they are supported by the planet itself. As Gaspar says "This is a battle between Lavos and the Planet!"

...I hope that wasn't too much of a tangent there, and I hope I didn't butcher that quote too much.

[utunnels]

Off topic a bit, the Japanese name of Black Omen happens to read as KURONOYUME(クロノユメ). although it has nothing to to with Crono or Chrono(KURONO) at all.

Back to topic, doesn't dream stone has something to do with Lavos? I don't know, but they did have some similarities, first of all, dreamstone is red, as well as the Frozen Flame which is a fragment from Lavos, the Masamune sword which is made from dreamstone has some kind of sentience to his user's spirit power, while the Frozen Flame can make contact with Lavos itself.

[hiddensquire]

Zergplex, your hypothesis makes a lot of sense; I really like it.  A few questions are raised, though.  If the MM has a dream entity manifestation, why is that entity identical in appearance to its physical counterpart (or at least the counterpart in its better days...), while all other examples of dream entities have manifestations that are clearly different from the objects they occupy?  Could it be that Melchior actually had a great deal of control over the kind of dream entity that was produced, and was able to literally program a dream creature like a machine?  It starts to get a little far-fetched at this point, but not when you consider CC's convoluted storyline, I suppose...

[Zergplex]

Off topic a bit, the Japanese name of Black Omen happens to read as KURONOYUME(クロノユメ). although it has nothing to to with Crono or Chrono(KURONO) at all.

Back to topic, doesn't dream stone has something to do with Lavos? I don't know, but they did have some similarities, first of all, dreamstone is red, as well as the Frozen Flame which is a fragment from Lavos, the Masamune sword which is made from dreamstone has some kind of sentience to his user's spirit power, while the Frozen Flame can make contact with Lavos itself.

The connection between Dreamstone and the Frozen Flame has never really been touched on in depth. Dreamstone existed before the Frozen Flame and Lavos landed, yet it seems to be a perfect conductor for his energy.

Zergplex, your hypothesis makes a lot of sense; I really like it.  A few questions are raised, though.  If the MM has a dream entity manifestation, why is that entity identical in appearance to its physical counterpart (or at least the counterpart in its better days...), while all other examples of dream entities have manifestations that are clearly different from the objects they occupy?  Could it be that Melchior actually had a great deal of control over the kind of dream entity that was produced, and was able to literally program a dream creature like a machine?  It starts to get a little far-fetched at this point, but not when you consider CC's convoluted storyline, I suppose...

For the reason the Dream Mammon Machine looks identical to the original Mammon Machine you need to look at Melchior's design. I don't believe anything he crafted was a coincidence, the spirits formed within the artifacts have just as much purpose as the items they are connected to.

Case study 1: The Masamune
The Masamune is powerful blade which grows in power from the inner strength of the wielder. The true strength of the Masamune comes from the soul of the wielder, this concept is key to understanging Masa and Mune.
Masa and Mune were designed with two perogatives in mind. The first was to protect the Masamune until a worthy person comes to claim it. The second was to provide companionship and direction to the wielder of the blade, to help him find his inner strength and awaken the true power hidden within the blade.
Masa and Mune's personalities show courage, intelligence (to a point), and an understanding of what it means to be a hero. They were to be the spiritual guides to the owner of the blade.

Case Study 2: The Pendant
The pendant's original design goal was never stated, but I feel it could be implied. I feel it's original purpose was to aid in interfacing with the the artifacts of Zeal, to aid in the activation and control of the Mammon Machine, and possibly to amplify magical power. As the Pendants design goals had multiple layers, the spirit within as well.

Doreen was designed to compliment both the usages of the pendant, but also to compliment the user of the pendant. The pendant was crafted for the royal family of Zeal, and Doreen's talents were designed with this in mind. As such Doreen has a sharper mind then her siblings, and is well versed in philosophy as we see during Chrono Trigger. She appears to be more mature and serious then her siblings as well. All these facts point to her role being as an adviser to the owner of the pendant. Doreen's design goal was to advise the owner of the pendant so that it's power would not be misused.

Case Study 3: The Mammon Machine
The Mammon Machine was crafted from Dreamstone to draw energy from a powerful new source the guru's had identified (they we later realize is Lavos). The Machine radiates the energy from the actual mechanical shell, but it must be drawing the power from Lavos somehow.
The Mammon Machine spirit was designed to be the second end of the machine, to draw the power from Lavos itself and shunt that energy to the physical side of the machine in Zeal. The spirit was formed to resemble the physical Mammon Machine because it was providing the same function but in reverse (absorbing Lavos's energy rather then radiating it out).
Unlike Masa, Mune, and Doreen the Mammon Machine's spirit didn't require a complex mind to complete it's job, so Melchior chose not to give it a full mind. It understood the workings of it's job, and the basics of defending itself.

In short I feel all the dream entities were formed by Melchior's dreams to fulfill a purpose. Their forms and personalities are clues to what that purpose was going to be during the time of ancient zeal, and what their purpose could be today.

[Xenterex]

Zergplex, your hypothesis makes a lot of sense; I really like it.  A few questions are raised, though.  If the MM has a dream entity manifestation, why is that entity identical in appearance to its physical counterpart

It's possible that this secondary 'dream form' may have effectively been killed when the ruby knife came into contact with the mammon machine.  There was a particular effect change between the two that caused an energy based reaction in both that 'activated the sword' (words taken from melchoir when he fixes the masamune)  and the knife became a sword. 

In regards to the mammon machine connection and the black omen,  the connection is really between Zeal and Lavos there.  If anything connected to the Omen has a 'dream entity' to it, it's Zeal herself.  This 'dream' is made manifest in her boss form of a big floated head and two detached hands.  If Frog has a connection to the masamune that tempers his strength through inner power,  perhaps a similar connection exists/existed between the mammon machine and Schala and then transfered to, or maybe just came to occur with Zeal.  In the duration of time between getting kicked out of the Ocean Palace, and the Omen arising, leaves room enough for Lavos, or Lavos' energies to have had a merging or connecting effect between Zeal and the mammon machine, thus creating this floating dream that persists through time.

[hiddensquire]

If the MM has a dream entity manifestation, why is that entity identical in appearance to its physical counterpart

It's possible that this secondary 'dream form' may have effectively been killed when the ruby knife came into contact with the mammon machine.  There was a particular effect change between the two that caused an energy based reaction in both that 'activated the sword' (words taken from melchoir when he fixes the masamune)  and the knife became a sword. 

In regards to the mammon machine connection and the black omen,  the connection is really between Zeal and Lavos there.  If anything connected to the Omen has a 'dream entity' to it, it's Zeal herself.  This 'dream' is made manifest in her boss form of a big floated head and two detached hands.  If Frog has a connection to the masamune that tempers his strength through inner power,  perhaps a similar connection exists/existed between the mammon machine and Schala and then transfered to, or maybe just came to occur with Zeal.  In the duration of time between getting kicked out of the Ocean Palace, and the Omen arising, leaves room enough for Lavos, or Lavos' energies to have had a merging or connecting effect between Zeal and the mammon machine, thus creating this floating dream that persists through time.

No... I don't think the 'secondary dream form' was killed at all.  In fact, it may have been 'activated' in the same manner as the Masamune the moment the two made contact!  What if the entire Black Dream is nothing but a dream entity - the dream entity of the mammon machine!  The MM's connection to Lavos would afford the dream entity more than enough power to manifest in such a gigantic form. The nature of the form is explained by the MM's memories of the ocean palace, only twisted by the mind of Lavos.  What if, when you fight the Mammon Machine towards the end of the Omen, the entire ship changes form into the MM's original memory of itself, and then back into the Black Dream again after you defeat that form?

[Zergplex]

No... I don't think the 'secondary dream form' was killed at all.  In fact, it may have been 'activated' in the same manner as the Masamune the moment the two made contact!  What if the entire Black Dream is nothing but a dream entity - the dream entity of the mammon machine!  The MM's connection to Lavos would afford the dream entity more than enough power to manifest in such a gigantic form. The nature of the form is explained by the MM's memories of the ocean palace, only twisted by the mind of Lavos.  What if, when you fight the Mammon Machine towards the end of the Omen, the entire ship changes form into the MM's original memory of itself, and then back into the Black Dream again after you defeat that form?

I definitely see some merit in the Mammon Machine awakening from the strange interaction between it and the Masamune.

The Black Omen is a mysterious place with more questions made then answers given in the game. I personally feel that the Mammon Machine being the focal point for the Omen is a bit of a stretch, but I also feel that with how little information we have on the Omen anything is possible. I do still question why the Black Omen would not have disappeared after you defeat the Mammon Machine within the Omen though. It seems either Zeal's death OR Lavos's awakening are what ended the Black Dream.

So do we concur that the Mammon Machine quite possibly/probably did have a spirit within it as it was (a) Made of Dreamstone and (b) produced by Melchior. Now whether the form of the spirit was the Mammon Machine creature within the Black Omen, it was the Black Omen itself, or something else is something we have to debate.

This has been a rousing conversation thusfar! And this was without even opening the can of worms that is the Frozen Flame's possible involvement in the Mammon Machine.

[chrono eric]

I like this theory a lot. I think too little attention is given to the nature of the "dream entities" in the story.

And I too think the entire Black Omen was summoned from this dream realm (with the possible exception of the Ocean Palace remains within it, including the destroyed Mammon Machine).

[Zergplex]

I know I had read this bit of dialogue before, but I guess I just skimmed the relevance of it until this very moment.

3 of you! And in a place like THIS!
You've got a long journey ahead of you so please rest awhile.
   
And if you wish to awaken from this dream, there probably is a way...

What will you do?
Wake up.
Stay

Well... not only is the Black Omen a dream but it is possible to wake those WITHIN it from the dream. A dream you enter. I think I'm gonna comb all the dialogue in the game script from the Black Omen and see if my brain makes any connections I missed before.

[art_garfunkel]

This has been a rousing conversation thusfar! And this was without even opening the can of worms that is the Frozen Flame's possible involvement in the Mammon Machine.

The Flame did it.

[Zergplex]

This has been a rousing conversation thusfar! And this was without even opening the can of worms that is the Frozen Flame's possible involvement in the Mammon Machine.

The Flame did it.

*Grin* Care to elaborate on that Art? I'd actually like to hear your ideas on this, as you tend to have a very different perspective on things then some of the rest of us (which is a very good thing, differing opinions can only broaden the horizons of an idea).

[art_garfunkel]

This has been a rousing conversation thusfar! And this was without even opening the can of worms that is the Frozen Flame's possible involvement in the Mammon Machine.

The Flame did it.

*Grin* Care to elaborate on that Art? I'd actually like to hear your ideas on this, as you tend to have a very different perspective on things then some of the rest of us (which is a very good thing, differing opinions can only broaden the horizons of an idea).

I actually have to say I think your ideas are very interesting. I see no reason to disagree with them. I've never noticed all the dream imagery associated with dreamstone.


That was more of a joke than a serious idea. I think its hilarious that you could probably explain the entirety of Trigger and Cross between the Entity and the Flame.

[ZeaLitY]

Excellent theory. It seems our only theory for this related to Pocket Dimensions, so this will be great if the PD theory goes away.