Serge question (most likely already thought of)

[ZealKnight]

Wait! It's a gate? I thought they were thrown back in time to the Sea of Edan? If not then I get it, but if I'm right ten FATE is still alive.

Edit ~ Found it!

Lavos, awakened at the Ocean Palace according to plan, thought it might mess up history by sucking Chronopolis back through time, which had been exposed by the Time Crash. Through the Frozen Flame, it did so, pulling it to 12000 B.C. The planet felt it needed to counterbalance the introduction of this temporally foreign facility by pulling in Dinopolis from an alternate dimension in which the Reptites lived due to Lavos not falling to the planet in that dimension.

Lavos pulled them trough time, like he did with Magus. (i mention that to protect them by time traveler's immunity). And the Earth brought Dinopolis. Unless, the failed experiment was part of Project Kid. So, what do you think on this?

[chrono eric]

Yes, that quote is somewhat confusing. I said the boundary of the Sea of Eden appears to function like a gate, in that crossing that boundary transports one through time.

If the boundary did not function like a gate and the Sea of Eden was temporally continuous with the El Nido sea, then yes - you would be correct that FATE is still alive because the arrival of Chronopolis would be covered by TTI.

However, the rest of the game gives the strong impression that the boundary of the Sea of Eden transports individuals through time. There are many reasons to think this is so, all of which are covered in one of the Compendium's articles (Nature of the Sea of Eden/Dead Sea I think is what it's called) - and that article is more concise than I could be as Eske pointed out  . And it's one of the few Compendium articles that I don't completely or partially disagree with, which is a plus in my book. So check it out when you have time. 

[ZealKnight]

Ok, so your saying that we don't necessarily know what is up with the sea of Edan and the dead sea. I like both theories (yours and the the pulled back in time one). And the dead sea is the Sea of Edan but because of Crono and Co. not appearing it died. Well, actually if that's the case it would have to be your theory, because TTI would have prevented the decay. So Dinopolis, The Einlanzer, Chronopolis, Lynx, and Harle would no longer exist. Then again Dinopolis could exist if Chronopolis is still pulled into the past, depending on project Kid. But then there are 2 frozen flames, future and present, and with Fate gone then Dinopolis would be free to take over. Right?

[chrono eric]

Yes, exactly about the "TTI preventing the decay" which was one of the many reasons that the Sea of Eden is presumed to literally transport individuals through time.

As far as what would or would not exist in the ideal timeline, let me quote myself from me and Eske's discussion. It is about the fates of certain characters in the Ideal Timeline. In our theory, we concluded schematically that time travel events that happened in one dimension but not the other would not be preserved after 1010 AD in the Ideal Timeline.

A simple example of this would be the following: Vann X in Home World time travels in 1020 AD to some other time (not relevant). Vann Y in Another World never time travels at all. So in the Ideal or "fused" timeline, does Vann XY disappear in 1020 AD, or does he not?

We won't continue that discussion here because Eske and I pretty much proved that he wouldn't disappear in the other thread. But the concept is important for figuring out what happens to certain characters in the Ideal Timeline such as the ones below:

Belthesar - Our theory predicts that Belthesar will emerge in 2300 AD and see a bright and shiny future as usual. He would not find that Schala is bound to the Time Devourer and he would not start the sequence of events to initiate Project Kid (even though everything associated with Project Kid is still preserved under TTI in the past). However, the Belthesar from during the game could possibly have escaped to the End of Time to watch the events unfold and still exists as well.

Robo - Robo would never partake in Project Kid and would presumably live out his life with Atropos in 2300 AD.

Misc. characters - According to our theory, everyone would become fused with their counterparts at the RU point and would not remember the adventure as Schala predicted. However, it's possible that the Chrono Cross could transfer their memories to at some point. It would seem a shame that they would miss out on the personal development they underwent during their quest.

Dragon Gods - The Dragon Gods are a mysterious case. It's possible that the Dragon Gods would all exist within the El Nido archepelago until 1010 A.D. FATE's power over them is transferred across the boundary of the Sea of Eden, and this is normally protected by TTI. But after 1010 A.D. TTI events that happened in one world but not the other are not preserved. So presumably the Dragon Gods would be free to become the fused Dragon God once more after the RU point and Terra Tower would reawaken. This is what is most predicted by our theory. What significance this has for the fate of the El Nido islands is unknown.

Harle - Harle was created in 1004 A.D. before the RU point. At the RU point she becomes Harle XY. (50% Harle X/50% Harle Y). Harle Y in Home World dies in the Dead Sea in the game, but this does not happen in the Ideal Timeline. Since all TTI/TB events after the split are not conserved, our theory predicts that Harle XY continues on living her life freely. An ideal situation, if you will.

Additionally, to address the other characters/places you talked about:

Dinopolis would still exist because it's arrival is protected by TTI in the past. The Einlanzer would still exist as well, I see no reason why it wouldn't.

The fate of Wazuki/Lynx is ambiguous. If Wazuki does in fact transform into Lynx, then he doesn't kill Serge in 1010 AD as he is supposed to, probably because the Records of Fate stop transmitting after 1010 AD (because of the effect of TTI not being preserved. Transmissions across the Sea of Eden boundary would likely be covered by that as well).

[ZealKnight]

Dinopolis would still exist because it's arrival is protected by TTI in the past. The Einlanzer would still exist as well, I see no reason why it wouldn't.

The fate of Wazuki/Lynx is ambiguous. If Wazuki does in fact transform into Lynx, then he doesn't kill Serge in 1010 AD as he is supposed to, probably because the Records of Fate stop transmitting after 1010 AD (because of the effect of TTI not being preserved. Transmissions across the Sea of Eden boundary would likely be covered by that as well).

TTI works outside of time travel, because Dinopolis is from a different world not a different time? And I thought that if Chronopolis never came to the dimension neither would dinopolis? Which would mean no Einlanzer, Dragoons, or any of the Dragons. But here is the main question:

I'm guessing that Chronopolis would go into the past with or without project kid. If so the Dragons would come into the world, and create El Nido. Also Chronopolis, assuming it's a gate, would have to hold FATE and Lynx because they are not protected by TTI. Wait, I just lost myself. Because if it is a gate then Lynx would forever be dead due to TTI, but FATE would live since she never actually left the Sea of Edan. So she could send another agent who wasn't Lynx, assuming that she knows the time-line is reunified. But then she would still need surge to open the door to the frozen flame. And a panther would still be the best form to use, and the dragons would still need harle to get the flame. But not to mention there is still another flame out there that hasn't been found since the fall of zeal. I mean there really doesn't have to be a reason to go to both dimensions if all the dragons are in one world. And I assume that the main story takes priority over side stories. So essentially, everything would kinda be the same but in one dimension? AHH!! I WAS SO CLOSE AND NOW I'M CONFUSED AGAIN!!!!

[chrono eric]

TTI works outside of time travel, because Dinopolis is from a different world not a different time?

Remember, it was pulled from the future of another dimension. So in essence, it travelled both back in time and crossed the dimensions. As such, I would say it qualifies as a time travel event.

Because if it is a gate then Lynx would forever be dead due to TTI, but FATE would live since she never actually left the Sea of Edan.

First off, Lynx does not re-enter the Sea of Eden until after 1010 AD, and only in one dimension at first, so by me and Eske's theory - he would not disappear at all.

If the boundary of the Sea of Eden can act as a "gate" that transports people to the future, then technically FATE never really existed in the past at all. It always existed in the future (which is why FATE was so concerned about alterations to the past timeline affecting it's own existence). So in this new future where FATE doesn't exist, even if someone were to cross the boundary of the Sea of Eden and travel to that future they would not find either Chronopolis or FATE there.

 

But not to mention there is still another flame out there that hasn't been found since the fall of zeal.

Nope. I know the story of Chrono Cross is rediculously confusing and entangled  . But the flame that presumably the Zealians made contact with is the same flame that was found on the ocean floor and stored within Chronopolis. There are two flames - one in Home World and one in Another World, but after the reunification there is only one flame in the Ideal Timeline and it would be located below the Sea of Eden.

Unless perhaps you mean the second flame located below the Sea of Eden in the game, as well as the one contained within Chronopolis? If Chronopolis can be viewed as technically never travelling back in time at all, but just sort of being connected to the past at the boundary of the Sea of Eden, then that flame too is one and the same. So technically from that viewpoint there are four Frozen Flames that one could acquire. If you went into Chronopolis and jacked that one, then left the Sea of Eden and somehow jacked the one on the ocean floor, then went to the Dead Sea and somehow acquired that one, and then acquired the one on the ocean floor in Home World - you would have four Flames. Confusing, no?

So essentially, everything would kinda be the same but in one dimension? AHH!! I WAS SO CLOSE AND NOW I'M CONFUSED AGAIN!!!!

Everything would sort of be the same is the best answer. El Nido likely existed exactly as it always did up until 1010 AD. After that point our theory predicts that events that an observer (ie: you) consider to be "ideal" that happened in either Home World or Another World would happen in the Ideal Timeline together.

[ZealKnight]

First off, Lynx does not re-enter the Sea of Eden until after 1010 AD, and only in one dimension at first, so by me and Eske's theory - he would not disappear at all.

If the boundary of the Sea of Eden can act as a "gate" that transports people to the future, then technically FATE never really existed in the past at all. It always existed in the future (which is why FATE was so concerned about alterations to the past timeline affecting it's own existence). So in this new future where FATE doesn't exist, even if someone were to cross the boundary of the Sea of Eden and travel to that future they would not find either Chronopolis or FATE there.

But, Wazuki is Lynx correct. And he entered the Sea of Edan before 1010AD. Therefore time travel. FATE on the other hand could still exist if everything is reset then she never died instead, Lynx would be gone because of TTI as well as Miguel and Serge. Everything After 1010 is reset so the death of fate and all of it. But assuming the Gate is still created, FATE no longer has any recollection of Lynx. And the Frozen Flame in the future is open to FATE. I mean why wouldn't FATE exist if everything was reset? I understand how Dinopolis would still exist and now I think that Harle would be created to find the Frozen Flame at the bottom of the ocean for the Dragon God. But I don't see why FATE wouldn't still exist? If protected by TTI she would be dead due to Serge, but she isn't so she would live. But I think your trying to say that the Gate would have never been created, which would be true if Belthazar had included the experiment as part of project kid.

[Acacia Sgt]

I think he refers that Chronopolis didn't time travel at all, just that the area got connected to the past.

As such, when Belthasar appears in the new future, he will not have a reason to build FATE, and so, even if the connection is still made, Chronopolis will not appear.

[chrono eric]

Yes, Acacia Sgt understands what I mean.

But, Wazuki is Lynx correct. And he entered the Sea of Edan before 1010AD. Therefore time travel. FATE on the other hand could still exist if everything is reset then she never died instead, Lynx would be gone because of TTI as well as Miguel and Serge.

I think you still misunderstand me and Eske's position just a little bit. We concluded that all instances of TTI/TB before 1010 AD would be preserved. TTI doesn't make individuals disappear, Time Bastard does. Because Serge and Wazuki/Lynx first entered the Sea of Eden and then exited it, they would first disappear due to TB and then reappear shortly thereafter due to TTI. Neither of them did any more time travelling until after 1010 AD, which is important because:

We also concluded that time travel events that occurred in one dimension, but not the other, would not be preserved in the unified timeline because it would cause irreconcilable problems. Take my Vann example above, and you can apply it to every instance of time travel that did not occur in the same way in both dimensions after 1010 AD. Now, in my Vann example above, if both Vann X and Vann Y time travelled at the same time in their respectives dimensions, then there would be no problem with Vann XY disappearing at that time in the Ideal Timeline after 1010 AD due to TB. See? It's only when one time travels but not the other that problems arise.

As such, because there is only one Serge - he will never disappear due to TB after 1010 AD. And because Wazuki/Lynx did not time travel at the same time in both dimensions (ie: He crossed the Dead Sea boundary first in Home World and then the Sea of Eden in Another later on) he likewise will not disappear. The same goes for Harle and for every single one of the playable characters.

Everything After 1010 is reset so the death of fate and all of it. But assuming the Gate is still created, FATE no longer has any recollection of Lynx. And the Frozen Flame in the future is open to FATE. I mean why wouldn't FATE exist if everything was reset?

As Acacia Sgt said, FATE exists in the future and not the past. Everything after 1010 AD is indeed reset, including the death of FATE by Serge - you are correct about that. But if FATE doesn't exist in the first place in the new timeline, then she doesn't have to die.

You can view the boundary of the Sea of Eden as a boundary of space/time. 2400 AD became connected physically to 12,000 BC. This has an equivalent effect to a normal time gate that is just open all of the time. So take this hypothetical example:

A time Gate is open between 1000 AD and 600 AD and it stays open all of the time. Person A exists in 1000 AD, and Person B exists in 600 AD. Person B goes through the time gate and kills Person A - then he returns to 600 AD. Person A stays there the entire time in 1000 AD and never existed in 600 AD, but Person B can still meet and kill Person A just fine.

Now what if some time travelling event alters that timeline so that Person A never exists in the first place? Person B would appear there but never meet Person A.

This is an analagous example to FATE existing within the Sea of Eden.

[BROJ]

I think he refers that Chronopolis didn't time travel at all, just that the area got connected to the past.

Now you're thinking with portals! But, yeah, I think it's general concensus(at least in Compendium theory anyways) that the two regions do not share the same time stamp, so to speak. So, whenever one travels between El Nido and Chronopolis, they are technically time-traveling and TTI would also apply to those entering and leaving Chronoplis. (sorry for going off on a tangent)

[chrono eric]

It's not a tangent at all. It's right in line with the discussion actually.

And as far as "general Compendium consensus" goes, I've found that most of the theories on the Compendium are deeply flawed (the Pocket Dimension one is so confounded that it needs to be immediately discarded). However, the whole Chronopolis not technically travelling back in time thing is one of the most solid, second only to TTI/TB I would say. There's just no way around it. The script of Cross is confusing and ambiguous at times, and many quotes about the nature of Chronopolis and the Sea of Eden are told from many different perspectives, and so we have to make inferences based on evidence given.

[ZealKnight]

I think he refers that Chronopolis didn't time travel at all, just that the area got connected to the past.

As such, when Belthasar appears in the new future, he will not have a reason to build FATE, and so, even if the connection is still made, Chronopolis will not appear.

Oh so you mean that FATE wouldn't exist because Belthasar would have no need for it? I didn't know that he created FATE. But what I'm confused about is

So take this hypothetical example:

A time Gate is open between 1000 AD and 600 AD and it stays open all of the time. Person A exists in 1000 AD, and Person B exists in 600 AD. Person B goes through the time gate and kills Person A - then he returns to 600 AD. Person A stays there the entire time in 1000 AD and never existed in 600 AD, but Person B can still meet and kill Person A just fine.

Now what if some time travelling event alters that timeline so that Person A never exists in the first place? Person B would appear there but never meet Person A.

This is an analagous example to FATE existing within the Sea of Eden.

Can you explain this a little better

[BROJ]

It's not a tangent at all. It's right in line with the discussion actually.

And as far as "general Compendium consensus" goes, I've found that most of the theories on the Compendium are deeply flawed (the Pocket Dimension one is so confounded that it needs to be immediately discarded). However, the whole Chronopolis not technically travelling back in time thing is one of the most solid, second only to TTI/TB I would say. There's just no way around it. The script of Cross is confusing and ambiguous at times, and many quotes about the nature of Chronopolis and the Sea of Eden are told from many different perspectives, and so we have to make inferences based on evidence given.

This is the standing theory on Chronopolis:

Perhaps the Gate Effect is not a solid 'dome' encompassing Chronopolis, but a dome-shaped barrier taking entrants ten thousand years into the future always to the same Chronopolis, the one that came back from Keystone T-1. Assuming Home World does retroactively get its own history (albeit a carbon copy of Another's before 1010 A.D.), when the split of dimensions occurs and time traveler's immunity is preserved, so too is the Gate Effect. This means that those who would enter the Dead Sea from Home World would merely be accessing Chronopolis, just as there are distortions allowing dimensional crossing in Home World after the Dead Sea is dissolved. With this in mind, there is one Chronopolis for both dimensions until 1010 A.D. Now, perhaps Belthasar foresaw that the history of Home would extend back, and planned for Chronopolis to be equipped to control it or at least know about it from their perspective in 1010 A.D. onward.

[chrono eric]

Oh so you mean that FATE wouldn't exist because Belthasar would have no need for it? I didn't know that he created FATE.

Belthesar set up Project Kid, which involved modifying the old Mother Brain computer with the Prometheus Circuit (aka: Robo) - which is FATE. Belthesar didn't create Chronopolis though. Chronopolis was apparently built 100 years later off of plans that Belthesar made in his time research lab. He planned the entire thing, but he wasn't around to see it happen as it is mentioned in the game that he "disappeared" before Chronopolis was built (probably to go to the End of Time or something to watch events unfold and to avoid complications in the craziness which became the timeline).

But Belthesar would have no need to create FATE or Project Kid because he would not find that Schala was bound to the Time Devourer upon arriving in the new future.

Can you explain this a little better

Gladly  . So basically what I was trying to show is that one person can travel through time to the future while something else (FATE for example) does not time travel at all. The time traveller can travel back and forth through a gate and meet FATE (which doesn't time travel at all) and even kill FATE if he wants to.

I was just trying to show you that FATE doesn't have to be brought physically to the past for Serge to interact with her. Serge can time travel across the boundary of the Sea of Eden to FATE's location in the future.

EDIT: @ BROJ - Yes I know the standing theory and I agree with it. Sorry if the wording was confusing. I was just saying that the theory is much more solid than many other Compendium theories which really fall apart completely upon scrutinizing them.

[ZealKnight]

Can you explain this a little better

Gladly  . So basically what I was trying to show is that one person can travel through time to the future while something else (FATE for example) does not time travel at all. The time traveller can travel back and forth through a gate and meet FATE (which doesn't time travel at all) and even kill FATE if he wants to.

I was just trying to show you that FATE doesn't have to be brought physically to the past for Serge to interact with her. Serge can time travel across the boundary of the Sea of Eden to FATE's location in the future.

Ok, but what created the Gate? And how would Serge survive if FATE can no longer save him? I mean they travel there and see nothing, but somehow he lives?