Serge question (most likely already thought of)

[BROJ]

EDIT: @ BROJ - Yes I know the standing theory and I agree with it. Sorry if the wording was confusing. I was just saying that the theory is much more solid than many other Compendium theories which really fall apart completely upon scrutinizing them.

I figured as much. But I felt I should post it for others as well, for consideration.

[chrono eric]

Ok, but what created the Gate?

Good questions. To answer the first one, the "Gate" isn't really a "Gate" by traditional definition, it's more like the boundary of the Sea of Eden is physically connected in space and time to the future. Think of it like a time barrier of sorts. Once you cross it, you are instantly in the future. For simplicity's sake, we can call it a "Gate" though.

And it was created by the Time Crash, unintentionally by the Chronopolis scientists (although Belthesar planned for it to happen all along). The Chronopolis scientists were attempting to gain "power over time" using "anti-annihilation energy", whatever that means. I always interpreted as meaning that they were trying to remove Chronopolis physically from the timeline so that they could access any point in time or space they wanted. But regardless of what their intentions were, the experiment failed and instead the boundary of the Sea of Eden in 2400 AD became connected to the boundary of the Sea of Eden in 12,000 BC. And it remained that way ever since.

So in short, the Chronopolis scientists created the "gate" but they didn't mean to. It was an accident. But Belthesar knew what would happen and actually planned for it, he used Chronopolis all along and technically sacrificed the scientists for his own master plan (kind of a dick thing to do, don't you think?).

And how would Serge survive if FATE can no longer save him? I mean they travel there and see nothing, but somehow he lives?

This is the genius of TB/TTI. So in 1006 AD in the Ideal Timeline Serge and Wazuki and Miguel enter the boundary of the Sea of Eden. They are actually TB'd away at this point. It doesn't matter if they actually crossed the boundary of the Sea of Eden or not. If they waited for even a split second later they would have become Time Bastarded.

After that, Serge and Wazuki and Miguel appear in the future due to TTI. They would likely see that there is no Chronopolis or FATE, and young Serge would probably die.

But that doesn't matter, because Serge that we know and love and Wazuki would still appear at the boundary of the Sea of Eden in 1006 AD due to TTI anyways.
Remember that each instance of disappearance or reappearance in time travel events is preserved by the theories of Time Bastard and Time Travellers Immunity. So it doesn't matter that Serge dies, because another version of him would just appear in the past anyways. Confusing, no?

Or to sum it up:

Originally, Serge and Wazuki and Miguel enter the Sea of Eden (travel to the future). Then Serge comes into contact with the Flame and is healed. Then they exit the Sea of Eden (travel back to the past again). All instances of their time travel are preserved in the timeline by TTI/TB.

So in the Ideal Timeline, Serge and Wazuki and Miguel enter the Sea of Eden. They appear in the future due to TTI. Serge probably dies. But then they appear in the past due to TTI anyways. Miguel gets screwed out of living unfortunately.

[BROJ]

To answer the first one, the "Gate" isn't really a "Gate" by traditional definition, it's more like the boundary of the Sea of Eden is physically connected in space and time to the future.

This one bothers me as Chronopolis is actually occupying a space in era, 1000AG, overriding what was [supposed to be] there.

[ZealKnight]

So Lynx would still exist? Lynx would still do all the things he planed on, but when he re-entered the Sea if Edan he would be TB'd to the DBT, but Serge would go in get TB'd but come out because of TTI? And Miguel, who never left the Sea of Edan or The Dead Sea would be Time Bastared to the DBT and never seen again?

[chrono eric]

This one bothers me as Chronopolis is actually occupying a space in era, 1000AG, overriding what was [supposed to be] there.

It originally bothered me too, but I'm not so sure about that now. See, imagine the Sea of Eden in 12,000 BC pre-Chronopolis Time Crash. It's just a sea which occupies space. But if only the boundary of the Sea of Eden is connected to the future, then Chronopolis really isn't occupying space in the past at all. The "original" Sea of Eden is still there post-Time Crash in 12,000 BC, it's just impossible for anyone from 12,000 BC to enter it ever again because they will just end up being transported to the future.

It begs the question though, what if some unlucky guy was sitting in the middle of the Sea of Eden in 12000 BC before the Time Crash, what would happen to him after the boundary of the Sea of Eden becomes connected to the future? When he tries to leave the Sea of Eden, would he be transported 14,400 years into the past, or would he cease to exist?

So Lynx would still exist? Lynx would still do all the things he planed on, but when he re-entered the Sea if Edan he would be TB'd to the DBT, but Serge would go in get TB'd but come out because of TTI? And Miguel, who never left the Sea of Edan or The Dead Sea would be Time Bastared to the DBT and never seen again?

Yes you've almost got it down perfectly now, except that if Lynx exists in the Ideal Timeline he would not disappear again by me and Eske's theory. This is because he did not time travel at the same time in both dimensions post-1010 AD, so problems arise when you start accounting for TB and TTI (think the Vann scenario again).

And as for him doing all the things he planned to do, I'm not so sure he would. I was always under the impression that he was guided by FATE the entire time. So if FATE doesn't exist, Lynx may not manipulate Porre or the Acacia Dragoons.

[Acacia Sgt]

About Miguel, since he remained in the Sea of Eden, he will still be there, just in the very far future.

But wait, when the dimensions were separate, Home Miguel died when the area became the Dead Sea. And Another Miguel was sent to the Dead Sea by FATE.

Does that travel will be negated as well and he will stay in the future then?

[ZealKnight]

So Lynx would still exist? Lynx would still do all the things he planed on, but when he re-entered the Sea if Edan he would be TB'd to the DBT, but Serge would go in get TB'd but come out because of TTI? And Miguel, who never left the Sea of Edan or The Dead Sea would be Time Bastared to the DBT and never seen again?

Yes you've almost got it down perfectly now, except that if Lynx exists in the Ideal Timeline he would not disappear again by me and Eske's theory. This is because he did not time travel at the same time in both dimensions post-1010 AD, so problems arise when you start accounting for TB and TTI (think the Vann scenario again).

And as for him doing all the things he planned to do, I'm not so sure he would. I was always under the impression that he was guided by FATE the entire time. So if FATE doesn't exist, Lynx may not manipulate Porre or the Acacia Dragoons.

Why wouldn't he disappear? And I always figured that FATE programed it into him when he turn Wazuki into Lynx, They never had contact after he left ever again.

[chrono eric]

About Miguel, since he remained in the Sea of Eden, he will stilll be there, just in the very far future.

But wait, when the dimensions were separate, Home Miguel died when the area became the Dead Sea. And Another Miguel was sent to the Dead Sea by FATE.

Does that travel will be negated as well and he will stay in the future then?

This is an awesome question, and it is actually not predicted by our theory. Our theory involves TTI/TB not being preserved after 1010 AD in certain cases, but since 1010 AD was the time of the dimensional split and the transformation of the Sea of Eden into the Dead Sea, and because we don't know exactly when Miguel arrived there, we can't predict his true fate. The only surefire prediction is that Miguel's life would probably most definitely suck in the Ideal Timeline. Too bad for Miguel.

Why wouldn't he disappear?

Let's keep track of Home and Another Lynx's time travel in the story to help you see why he wouldn't disappear. There are two Lynx's - one in Home World and one in Another World. Neither of them time travel again until after 1010 AD:

Home World Lynx enters the Dead Sea in 1017 AD (I believe) and dies there.

Another World Lynx enters the Sea of Eden as Dark Serge in 1020 AD, leaves and re-enters it, and then dies as FATE inside of it.

So in the Ideal Timeline, Ideal Lynx is composed of both Home World Lynx and Another Lynx "fused" together. Would Ideal Lynx disappear in 1017 AD? No, because by the same logic that we applied to the Vann example, his time travel event is not preserved. Would he disappear in 1020 AD either? No, and for the same reason.

And I always figured that FATE programed it into him when he turn Wazuki into Lynx, They never had contact after he left ever again.

FATE programming him is a definite possibility, yes. An alternate interpretation is that Lynx is controlled by FATE remotely. Either could be true. I think the second explanation is a little more likely since Dark Serge actually talks and acts as if he is FATE herself (itself?). But it could go either way there.

[BROJ]

This one bothers me as Chronopolis is actually occupying a space in era, 1000AG, overriding what was [supposed to be] there.

It originally bothered me too, but I'm not so sure about that now. See, imagine the Sea of Eden in 12,000 BC pre-Chronopolis Time Crash. It's just a sea which occupies space. But if only the boundary of the Sea of Eden is connected to the future, then Chronopolis really isn't occupying space in the past at all. The "original" Sea of Eden is still there post-Time Crash in 12,000 BC, it's just impossible for anyone from 12,000 BC to enter it ever again because they will just end up being transported to the future.

IIRC, El Nido(including the Sea of Eden/Dead Sea) existed in 1000AG(as it is from 2300AG) only after the Time Crash. (see: http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Sea_of_Eden.html ) Also, whether it is the Sea of Eden's barrier or Chronopolis', wouldn't it still follow the same concept?

It begs the question though, what if some unlucky guy was sitting in the middle of the Sea of Eden in 12000 BC before the Time Crash, what would happen to him after the boundary of the Sea of Eden becomes connected to the future? When he tries to leave the Sea of Eden, would he be transported 14,400 years into the past, or would he cease to exist?

He would probably experience a TB-esque factor and be shunted to the DBT. I say this because if he was shunted -14400 years an infinite loop would occur. Edit: Another valid possibility is a 'time swap' like Eske mentions further.

[ZealKnight]

About Miguel, since he remained in the Sea of Eden, he will stilll be there, just in the very far future.

But wait, when the dimensions were separate, Home Miguel died when the area became the Dead Sea. And Another Miguel was sent to the Dead Sea by FATE.

Does that travel will be negated as well and he will stay in the future then?

This is an awesome question, and it is actually not predicted by our theory. Our theory involves TTI/TB not being preserved after 1010 AD in certain cases, but since 1010 AD was the time of the dimensional split and the transformation of the Sea of Eden into the Dead Sea, and because we don't know exactly when Miguel arrived there, we can't predict his true fate. The only surefire prediction is that Miguel's life would probably most definitely suck in the Ideal Timeline. Too bad for Miguel.

Yeah, I wouldn't think he would stay in the Dead Sea. He probably got TB'd

Why wouldn't he disappear?

Let's keep track of Home and Another Lynx's time travel in the story to help you see why he wouldn't disappear. There are two Lynx's - one in Home World and one in Another World. Neither of them time travel again until after 1010 AD:

Home World Lynx enters the Dead Sea in 1017 AD (I believe) and dies there.

Another World Lynx enters the Sea of Eden as Dark Serge in 1020 AD, leaves and re-enters it, and then dies as FATE inside of it.

So in the Ideal Timeline, Ideal Lynx is composed of both Home World Lynx and Another Lynx "fused" together. Would Ideal Lynx disappear in 1017 AD? No, because by the same logic that we applied to the Vann example, his time travel event is not preserved. Would he disappear in 1020 AD either? No, and for the same reason.

Ok, now I understand.

[Acacia Sgt]

This is an awesome question, and it is actually not predicted by our theory. Our theory involves TTI/TB not being preserved after 1010 AD in certain cases, but since 1010 AD was the time of the dimensional split and the transformation of the Sea of Eden into the Dead Sea, and because we don't know exactly when Miguel arrived there, we can't predict his true fate. The only surefire prediction is that Miguel's life would probably most definitely suck in the Ideal Timeline. Too bad for Miguel.

But, does in the ideal time line the boundary of the Sea of Eden still gets connected between the two eras?

If so, then surely Miguel could just go back instead of staying there.

[ZealKnight]

That's why I say he got TB'd.

[Eske]

It begs the question though, what if some unlucky guy was sitting in the middle of the Sea of Eden in 12000 BC before the Time Crash, what would happen to him after the boundary of the Sea of Eden becomes connected to the future? When he tries to leave the Sea of Eden, would he be transported 14,400 years into the past, or would he cease to exist?
 

Person A, at Time Error Z, exists at Location X, Time Y   (12000 BC)

Location X, Time Y becomes Location X, Time Y+14,400

Person A, at Time Error Z+W, now exists at Location X, Time Y+14,400 >> where W represents the later point on the Time Error Axis where the past is changed.

Upon Leaving Location X, Person A now exists in Location V, Time Y+B  >> where B is the amount of time error  he spent in Location X.

I guess you could say there are two ways to represent Time Error: one that is relative to changes to the timeline, and one that is relative to the individuals making the changes.

Unless I have some incorrect understanding of the Time Crash (possible, I haven't played CC in years), my assumption is that a "gate"  "fell on top of him" - so to speak.  So, he is sent to the future and returns to the past when he leaves the Sea of Eden.

maybe 

[Acacia Sgt]

That's why I say he got TB'd.

But, since he never leaved the Sea of Eden, even when the dimensions were separate. In the ideal time line, he will stay in there.

Wazuki and Serge will get TB'ed, Miguel won't. If both eras connect, then Miguel can just go back, traveling through time again, and then just find his way back to Arni.

His fate wouldn't really suck that way.

[BROJ]

It begs the question though, what if some unlucky guy was sitting in the middle of the Sea of Eden in 12000 BC before the Time Crash, what would happen to him after the boundary of the Sea of Eden becomes connected to the future? When he tries to leave the Sea of Eden, would he be transported 14,400 years into the past, or would he cease to exist?
 

Person A, at Time Error Z, exists at Location X, Time Y   (12000 BC)

Location X, Time Y becomes Location X, Time Y+14,400

Person A, at Time Error Z+W, now exists at Location X, Time Y+14,400 >> where W represents the later point on the Time Error Axis where the past is changed.

Upon Leaving Location X, Person A now exists in Location V, Time Y+B  >> where B is the amount of time error  he spent in Location X.

I guess you could say there are two ways to represent Time Error: one that is relative to changes to the timeline, and one that is relative to the individuals making the changes.

Unless I have some incorrect understanding of the Time Crash (possible, I haven't played CC in years), my assumption is that a "gate"  "fell on top of him" - so to speak.  So, he is sent to the future and returns to the past when he leaves the Sea of Eden.

maybe 

That is another possibility. However, according to the game canon, Dinopolis is what experienced the antithesis of Chronopolis' travel 'real estate change'. So... hmm.