Serge question (most likely already thought of)

[chrono eric]

Person A, at Time Error Z, exists at Location X, Time Y   (12000 BC)

Location X, Time Y becomes Location X, Time Y+14,400

Person A, at Time Error Z+W, now exists at Location X, Time Y+14,400 >> where W represents the later point on the Time Error Axis where the past is changed.

Upon Leaving Location X, Person A now exists in Location V, Time Y+B  >> where B is the amount of time error  he spent in Location X.

I guess you could say there are two ways to represent Time Error: one that is relative to changes to the timeline, and one that is relative to the individuals making the changes.

Unless I have some incorrect understanding of the Time Crash (possible, I haven't played CC in years), my assumption is that a "gate"  "fell on top of him" - so to speak.  So, he is sent to the future and returns to the past when he leaves the Sea of Eden.

maybe 

This would likely only work as an explanation if the Person A happened to be sitting at the boundary of the Sea of Eden when the Time Crash occurred. But my original thought experiment involved him sitting in the middle of the Sea of Eden, far from the location of the boundary. As such, I think BROJ's explanation that if he tried to leave he would get sent to the DBT because an infinite loop would be created otherwise is much better.

But, since he never leaved the Sea of Eden, even when the dimensions were separate. In the ideal time line, he will stay in there.

Wazuki and Serge will get TB'ed, Miguel won't. If both eras connect, then Miguel can just go back, traveling through time again, and then just find his way back to Arni.

His fate wouldn't really suck that way.

This is actually a possibility, if the boundary of the Sea of Eden still functions like a "gate" in the Ideal Timeline to permit time travel. An analogous concept would be, if a person opens a gate and travels to the past, thus altering the future, is the gate itself also covered by TTI in the new timeline? Does the gate itself appear along with the person? I believe the Compendium calls this the "Gate Effect", and I would be inclined to say that yes the boundary of the Sea of Eden would still permit travel to the future in the Ideal Timeline.

So perhaps Miguel would return and live happily ever after. That makes sense.

[ZealKnight]

So one more thing, if FATE is gone whats holding the Dragons from ruling?

[chrono eric]

So one more thing, if FATE is gone whats holding the Dragons from ruling?

Nothing. Like I said, it is actually predicted by our theory that the dragons would still exist and would become the Fused Dragon God in the absense of FATE binding them. What this means for the El Nido Archepelago though is anyone's guess.

[Eske]

Hmm,  I'm somehow missing the infinite loop.. diagram please?  haha 

[BROJ]

Hmm,  I'm somehow missing the infinite loop.. diagram please?  haha 

The infinite loop I was referring to was the one when a field is shunted into the past, if the field being overwritten is shunted again to the past, it would cause an infinite cascade of shunts to the past wreaking havoc on all of time. I did, however, say your explanation -- your "time swap" as I've coined -- was just as valid as mine sans in-game canon.

[Eske]

Hmm,  I'm somehow missing the infinite loop.. diagram please?  haha 

The infinite loop I was referring to was the one when a field is shunted into the past, if the field being overwritten is shunted again to the past, it would cause an infinite cascade of shunts to the past wreaking havoc on all of time. I did, however, say your explanation -- your "time swap" as I've coined -- was just as valid as mine sans in-game canon.

Something isn't clicking.  I guess I fail to understand exactly what happened during the Time Crash.  Scratching what I had in my earlier post, this is what I understand:

We have Location X at Time Y
14400 years later, we have Location X at Time Z
Time Crash happens, and Location X at Time Z replaces the  Location X at Time Y.

So now, anything within Location X at Time Y will be replaced by the version of Location X at Time Z.

Ah,  well in that case, that poor sucker would have never been able to leave the Sea of Eden.  He would have been sent to the DBT along with Location X at Time Y.

But that can't be right, there is no loop involved.  Oh well - don't know what I'm missing.   

[BROJ]

Hmm,  I'm somehow missing the infinite loop.. diagram please?  haha 

The infinite loop I was referring to was the one when a field is shunted into the past, if the field being overwritten is shunted again to the past, it would cause an infinite cascade of shunts to the past wreaking havoc on all of time. I did, however, say your explanation -- your "time swap" as I've coined -- was just as valid as mine sans in-game canon.

Something isn't clicking.  I guess I fail to understand exactly what happened during the Time Crash.  Scratching what I had in my earlier post, this is what I understand:

We have Location X at Time Y
14400 years later, we have Location X at Time Z
Time Crash happens, and Location X at Time Z replaces the  Location X at Time Y.

So now, anything within Location X at Time Y will be replaced by the version of Location X at Time Z.

Ah,  well in that case, that poor sucker would have never been able to leave the Sea of Eden.  He would have been sent to the DBT along with Location X at Time Y.

But that can't be right, there is no loop involved.  Oh well - don't know what I'm missing.   

The loop has to do with the mechanic of fields repeatedly being pushed to the past -- it does not apply to the mechanics of your "time swap". But, now that I think of it, his successful exit would violate TTI, and without the DBT, he would exit the field, without definition, at every moment between 12000BC and 14400 + whenever it left -- thus infinitely. Edit: Suppose it isn't infinite, unless time can be divided beyond the Planck Constant.

[chrono eric]

Something isn't clicking.  I guess I fail to understand exactly what happened during the Time Crash.  Scratching what I had in my earlier post, this is what I understand:

We have Location X at Time Y
14400 years later, we have Location X at Time Z
Time Crash happens, and Location X at Time Z replaces the  Location X at Time Y.

So now, anything within Location X at Time Y will be replaced by the version of Location X at Time Z.

Ah,  well in that case, that poor sucker would have never been able to leave the Sea of Eden.  He would have been sent to the DBT along with Location X at Time Y.

But that can't be right, there is no loop involved.  Oh well - don't know what I'm missing.   

I think what you are missing Eske is that you are trying to replace Location X in the past with it's version in the future, but that isn't what is implied in the game. Think of it more as Location X at Time Y being connected to Location X at Time Z. Such that if you were to pass through Location X at Time Y you would instantly emerge at Location X at Time Z.

Say in a hypothetical example a similar Time Crash happens in the middle of New York City and it divides Times Square in half. You are oblivious to this and decide to take a stroll through Times Square. As soon as you pass that linear boundary - bam - you are suddenly in the Times Square of the future.

[Eske]

Alright, so what is the difference between someone who is inside the location of the Time Crash in 12000BC and someone who enters later in 1020AD?   


EDIT:  I promise I'll be helpful as soon as I get it lol.

[BROJ]

I think what you are missing Eske is that you are trying to replace Location X in the past with it's version in the future, but that isn't what is implied in the game. Think of it more as Location X at Time Y being connected to Location X at Time Z. Such that if you were to pass through Location X at Time Y you would instantly emerge at Location X at Time Z.

Say in a hypothetical example a similar Time Crash happens in the middle of New York City and it divides Times Square in half. You are oblivious to this and decide to take a stroll through Times Square. As soon as you pass that linear boundary - bam - you are suddenly in the Times Square of the future.

Now, I'm confused. If I'm thinking correctly, Location X, Time Y(future instance) is no longer at Location X, Time Y/+; so it has to be something more than 'connected'. It went somewhere, so something was displaced even if it's time stamp wasn't changed. Does that make sense? I'm really distracted right now...

[ZealKnight]

Ok, I know your trying to explain this but one more thing and you can continue this your other discussion about the guy in the ocean.

So one more thing, if FATE is gone whats holding the Dragons from ruling?

Nothing. Like I said, it is actually predicted by our theory that the dragons would still exist and would become the Fused Dragon God in the absense of FATE binding them. What this means for the El Nido Archepelago though is anyone's guess.

Are you saying the Dragon God could rule the world right now and commit genocide on the humans? Also doesn't the Frozen Flame have TTI so there would be two of them still? And what happened to FATE's FF after Terra Tower in CC?

[chrono eric]

Alright, so what is the difference between someone who is inside the location of the Time Crash in 12000BC and someone who enters later in 1020AD?   


EDIT:  I promise I'll be helpful as soon as I get it lol.

Yes, this is what is troubling. By my view of the time crash, it's like a spherical region of space around the Sea of Eden became connected to the same region of space 14,400 years in the future. By this view, if someone was inside the Sea at the time of the Time Crash, they would just be sitting in the Sea of Eden as they remember it. But if they try to leave, they would be sent to the DBT upon passing the boundary. Whereas if someone enters from outside of the Sea of Eden, they would be sent 14,400 years in the future.

An alternate view would be that the space inside the Sea of Eden is displaced, ie: The space inside the spherical volume in 12,000 BC is replaced by the same space from 2,400 AD, and that which was in 2,400 AD "disappears". But if this were so, then the boundary of the Sea of Eden wouldn't be acting like a "Gate" at all and Chronopolis could be said to have been physically drawn into the past, which is why I don't think this is a correct view.

Think of the Sea of Eden in 2,400 AD and using the first viewpoint for comparison. As soon as the Time Crash occurs, it's like the area inside the Sea of Eden in 2,400 AD is physically and temporally isolated from the rest of 2,400 AD. The same thing occurs in 12,000 BC. I imagine that if someone were to try to enter the Sea of Eden in 2,400 AD they would be sent to the DBT, just as if someone were to try to leave it in 12,000 BC if they were stuck inside at the time of the Time Crash. But between the interval of 12,000 BC to 2,400 AD, anyone that enters from the past will be sent to that time inside the Sea of Eden in the future.

Are you saying the Dragon God could rule the world right now and commit genocide on the humans? Also doesn't the Frozen Flame have TTI so there would be two of them still? And what happened to FATE's FF after Terra Tower in CC?

Don't worry, we can have multiple discussions about multiple topics. After all this topic was originally about the ending of Chrono Cross, right? 

Our theory predicts a lot of things, and it sets up a generally "Ideal" sequence of events using a very simplistic mechanism which is why I think it works so well compared to the Compendium's ending theory. But one of the things that it does predict is that FATE would not have control over the Dragon God's anymore. We can't predict what that would mean for El Nido though. However, since Serge and Leena still have their conversation on Opassa Beach at the end of the game we can draw two conclusions:

A) Either the Dragon Gods no longer exist for some reason and we would have to explain why

-or-

B) The Dragon Gods were freed but were somehow defeated or neutralized before 1010 AD.

Of those two explanations, (A) is more likely to me as far as coming up with an answer goes, but our theory doesn't predict why they wouldn't exist - it only predicts that FATE wouldn't have control over them anymore.

Perhaps you can come up with something? Our theory suggests that before 1010 AD in the Ideal Timeline history is unnaffected - so everything that happened before 1010 AD is preserved in the Ideal Timeline, which includes the arrival of Dinopolis and the introduction of the Dragon Gods to El Nido, and their sealing by FATE. Any theory that accounts for their nonexistence after 1010 AD would have to explain why they suddenly vanish in 1010 AD, which would not be a result of any Time Bastard effect.

[ZealKnight]

Well actually that wouldn't be true because wasn't FATE's seal just the dragons not existing in the same dimension? I assume that they want the Frozen Flame still, to evolve even further and maybe there is something else they are afraid of?

[Eske]

Alright, so what is the difference between someone who is inside the location of the Time Crash in 12000BC and someone who enters later in 1020AD?   


EDIT:  I promise I'll be helpful as soon as I get it lol.

Yes, this is what is troubling. By my view of the time crash, it's like a spherical region of space around the Sea of Eden became connected to the same region of space 14,400 years in the future. By this view, if someone was inside the Sea at the time of the Time Crash, they would just be sitting in the Sea of Eden as they remember it. But if they try to leave, they would be sent to the DBT upon passing the boundary. Whereas if someone enters from outside of the Sea of Eden, they would be sent 14,400 years in the future.

An alternate view would be that the space inside the Sea of Eden is displaced, ie: The space inside the spherical volume in 12,000 BC is replaced by the same space from 2,400 AD, and that which was in 2,400 AD "disappears". But if this were so, then the boundary of the Sea of Eden wouldn't be acting like a "Gate" at all and Chronopolis could be said to have been physically drawn into the past, which is why I don't think this is a correct view.

Think of the Sea of Eden in 2,400 AD and using the first viewpoint for comparison. As soon as the Time Crash occurs, it's like the area inside the Sea of Eden in 2,400 AD is physically and temporally isolated from the rest of 2,400 AD. The same thing occurs in 12,000 BC. I imagine that if someone were to try to enter the Sea of Eden in 2,400 AD they would be sent to the DBT, just as if someone were to try to leave it in 12,000 BC if they were stuck inside at the time of the Time Crash. But between the interval of 12,000 BC to 2,400 AD, anyone that enters from the past will be sent to that time inside the Sea of Eden in the future.

Bingo, now I get it.  Thanks lol. 

So I assume that the loop arises from a person inside ground zero who is now connected to 12000BC and 2400AD simultaneously - therefore the time error he spends inside the Sea of Eden cannot be properly established.  So if that person passed beyond the boundary, he would have to emerge at Time 12000BC + every unit of time error after Time Error N amount of time he spends in ground zero until 2400AD + N   

Obviously that would need to be avoided somehow... your explanation works well for that.  I'll have to think some more about it.

Are you saying the Dragon God could rule the world right now and commit genocide on the humans? Also doesn't the Frozen Flame have TTI so there would be two of them still? And what happened to FATE's FF after Terra Tower in CC?

Don't worry, we can have multiple discussions about multiple topics. After all this topic was originally about the ending of Chrono Cross, right? 

Our theory predicts a lot of things, and it sets up a generally "Ideal" sequence of events using a very simplistic mechanism which is why I think it works so well compared to the Compendium's ending theory. But one of the things that it does predict is that FATE would not have control over the Dragon God's anymore. We can't predict what that would mean for El Nido though. However, since Serge and Leena still have their conversation on Opassa Beach at the end of the game we can draw two conclusions:

A) Either the Dragon Gods no longer exist for some reason and we would have to explain why

-or-

B) The Dragon Gods were freed but were somehow defeated or neutralized before 1010 AD.

Of those two explanations, (A) is more likely to me as far as coming up with an answer goes, but our theory doesn't predict why they wouldn't exist - it only predicts that FATE wouldn't have control over them anymore.

Perhaps you can come up with something? Our theory suggests that before 1010 AD in the Ideal Timeline history is unnaffected - so everything that happened before 1010 AD is preserved in the Ideal Timeline, which includes the arrival of Dinopolis and the introduction of the Dragon Gods to El Nido, and their sealing by FATE. Any theory that accounts for their nonexistence after 1010 AD would have to explain why they suddenly vanish in 1010 AD, which would not be a result of any Time Bastard effect.

Explanation could be simple... but I need this answered....  Did Dinopolis go through something similar to Chronopolis?  Would they have the same properties in terms of their connections between the past and future?

[Acacia Sgt]

I think that no. Dinopolis seems to be fully present unlike Chronopolis. Look how it became Sky Dragon Island, and then rose up to the air, then back to the water. Had it been in a situation similar to Chronopolis...

Besides, wasn't Dinopolis floating over land when they showed the screen with it on the Reptite Dimension?