TTI/TB/TE Reformation Idea Collection

[chrono eric]

Yes, but TTI/TB are skirting the predestiny edge themselves, Regardless of what happens, One form of Robo is going to get TBed, if applied my theory can sort of fix some of the dower bits of the Cross ending, instead of Ideal World Serge getting TBed, he finds the Cross while at the Beech with Leena, grabs it and the power of the Cross Fixes Serge's Memories.

Check out this thread ryu (page 4 or so), if you haven't already. http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,6571.45.html

In it I present an argument that Ideal Serge doesn't get TB'd in the first place at all.

@chrono eric:  I don't think it's just about the matter itself, but the state of the being.   Instead of a lost arm example use a broken arm  --  all the same matter might be present, but does that mean Crono will always exit the gate with his arm intact?  I don't think so.   Even scars, new birthmarks, everything should be affected.  Mind/memories excluded, of course.

I don't see why they would if the matter that composes them is the same, Eske. Remember, our original rationale for the reverse TB explanation was that TB would take the "path of least resistance", right? In a case where no matter has been lost from the future counterpart, matter/energy conservation is preserved when that counterpart enters the gate and there are no problems and no need to modify TTI or TB. But maybe I am wrong. Perhaps you could write out an example that would illustrate that this is absolutely necessary?

[ryu planeswalker]

Yes, but TTI/TB are skirting the predestiny edge themselves, Regardless of what happens, One form of Robo is going to get TBed, if applied my theory can sort of fix some of the dower bits of the Cross ending, instead of Ideal World Serge getting TBed, he finds the Cross while at the Beech with Leena, grabs it and the power of the Cross Fixes Serge's Memories.

Check out this thread ryu (page 4 or so), if you haven't already. http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,6571.45.html

In it I present an argument that Ideal Serge doesn't get TB'd in the first place at all.

I've read that one, and I was using Serge as an example of Bastardization not exactly being a positive ending for the characters, A better example would be Miguel, who when Bastardized would simply Vanish from the face of the earth, Possibly infront of his daughter, not exactly an Ideal ending for one of the main characters.

[Acacia Sgt]

Doesn't Miguel just ends up where Chronopolis should be? Not as bad, but still is bad considering the situation.

[chrono eric]

Waaaay off topic, but yeah Acacia Sgt is right. Miguel would be left there in the middle of the Sea of Eden. If he tried to return home by crossing the boundary, it may be possible for him to survive in the Ideal Timeline but...not sold on that yet.

EDIT: Here's a reformation idea for you - If we take the timeline of the Chronoverse and interpret it as cyclic (as per Foxx's thread), then TTI is completely unnecessary, and so is TB in most cases. I posted my idea in that thread. Check it out, I think it works.

[placidchap]

This is not regarding TTI or TB, but Time Error (TE).

In keeping with being as simple as possible, I would propose that the Time Error theory be retired.
Another axis of time is not necessary and just muddies the water.
A gate sends the person back or forward in time both in a relative and absolute sense.  (That is +-400 absolute years, relative to their current position in time.)  This is why Crono does not pop out of the time warp at the same time as Marle.  There is just no need for TE.  Marle leaves at 1000.01 and arrives at 600.01, while Crono leaves at 1000.02 and arrives at 600.02, evidenced by 1) Marle is not there and 2) Marle has already been found and returned to the castle.  Crono et al stay in 600 until let’s say 600.05, after the kidnapping and rescue of Leene.  They travel back to the warp, which throws them +400 years, relative to their current position in time, 600.05.  This would mean they would simply arrive at 1000.05.  This would show that, at least with the Gates and the Epoch, that time continuously flows forward, on one axis of time.

[Eske]

I agree with you in terms of the gate and Epoch use, but what about the End of Time or DBT?
Gaspar is able to witness changes to the timeline without being changed himself (he can react to your changes, showing that he is obviously aware of their former state).  In that case, Gaspar must not be on the timeline, as he is unaffected by changes to it.  Yet the group spends "time" at the End of Time.  So, if there is no Time Error, that means that the point of departure from say 1000AD to the EoT and the point of arrival from the EoT to 65mil BC would be simultaneous.  But the group spends "time" in the EoT, so how would you classify that "time"?

[placidchap]

I'd have to say that the End of Time...is at the end of time.  So time does not flow at all, as time is at its end.  It may flow in but it does not flow out, so anything existing at that point (right after the very last instance of time) is there in perpetuity.  So I would say that yes, traveling from 1000AD to the EoT and then from the EoT to 65m BC would be considered instantaneous.
Is there some kind of proof that time does indeed flow at the End of Time?  Is that proof supposed to be Gaspar himself knowing of the before and after?  I wouldn’t consider that proof of a separate time axis, but proof that the End of Time is disconnected from the normal flow of time which I explained by its existence right after the last instance of time.  Or was there something that transpired in the game while at the End of Time?

[Eske]

Well we know that "some" axis of time flows at the End of Time, otherwise there would be no motion.
If the End of Time is disconnected from the normal time flow as you stated, then Time Error would exist.
If the End of Time is on the same timeline as the other destinations, Time Error does not need to exist.
But we see that changes in time have no influence over Gaspar - so he must be on his own, perpendicular axis in order to remain unaffected.  This is Time Error.

But yes, you are correct that Time Error is not needed to explain the gates or the Epoch.  If Crono waits until 1001AD to use the gate, he will arrive at 601AD - no time error needed.

But - if there is no Time Error for the gates and Epoch we have another small issue.  To Gaspar, Spekkio, and the gang waiting at the EoT, every departure-arrival pair would be simultaneous.  So, to Gaspar, the whole adventure would feel like it took about an hour.  At this point, giving support for your theory would hinge on looking at EoT dialogue and seeing if there is any indication that it has been "awhile" since he saw a party member or something to that effect.

[placidchap]

That would assume that time is indeed needed for motion in all instances.  This is probably true for the msot part however I think the End of Time is different than the normal case.   It certainly has space as we see in the game but time is debatable.  If time were to flow at the End of Time, it would not and should not be called “the End” of Time.

I am saying that space and time can be separate and are separate at the End of Time.  Since time does not pass in the EoT, that would allow them to remain there forever or immortal if you will.

I think there is a point in game when Crono and Lavos are frozen in space-time but other party members can move around that same space-time and replace him with a doll. Unless you want to call that Time Error, it would seem to me that instance is evidence that space and time can be separate.

I don't see how the adventure appearing to be only an hour to Gaspar is really an issue?  Unless of course there is a "long time no see" type dialog in there somewhere...

[chrono eric]

I think there is a point in game when Crono and Lavos are frozen in space-time but other party members can move around that same space-time and replace him with a doll. Unless you want to call that Time Error, it would seem to me that instance is evidence that space and time can be separate.

I don't see how the adventure appearing to be only an hour to Gaspar is really an issue?  Unless of course there is a "long time no see" type dialog in there somewhere...

I would like to first comment on the first part of this quote - would it not be possible that time is not completely frozen, but moving at a rate so imperceptibly slow that one would perceive it as being frozen? In this case space and time are still unified and there is no reason or true evidence to justify the separation of them in the Chronoverse.

And as for the second part, I am like 90% positive that there is in fact a quote like that. I don't have time to go look for it at the moment, but unless someone beats me to it I'll search for it tomorrow or something.

[placidchap]

Old Man:
   And you must hurry.
   The longer you remain here, the
   harder it will be to change that
   which must be changed...


Meh that would indicate time does pass in some form at the end of time...

Although I am far from convinced regarding TE...will think more about it tonight...

Are the mutually exclusive or do they happen at the same time?  Meaning, do you have to be at the End of Time to experience Time Error?  Or is it flowing while you are on normal time too?

[chrono eric]

Well, as Eske pointed out, if Time Error did not flow within the timeline then to Gaspar every departure/arrival pair would be simultaneous. However, I think that there may be a way around that if we view time as cyclical in the Chronoverse. Here's my example:

Cycle 1: Universe begins. Crono and company depart the timeline at Time X to the End of Time. Universe ends.

Cycle 2: Universe begins again. Crono and co. arrive at the End of Time and spend a certain real amount of time there. At Time Y they depart for the timeline once more. Universe ends.

Cycle 3: Universe begins again. Crono and co. re-enter the timeline at a designated time.


So you see, if whenever Crono and co. exit the timeline they arrive at the End of Time sometime after the next universal cycle begins, and vice versa - there is no need for the traditional concept of Time Error to explain this (feel free to correct me if I am wrong Eske, but I see no problem here).

But there is a potential problem with this: If time at the End of Time flows perpendicular to the "normal" flow of time, Gaspar should not be able to see the universal cycles, because the timeline would appear static to him. The only way he could see the changes made to the timeline, I think, is if there were a single timeline that was repeatedly altered and sent to the DBT, and if there was a 5D component to time.

I may be wrong about that though, I'll have to think about it more.

[Eske]

So then how much "time" would pass between Gaspar's arrival and Crono's first arrival?

If time error did not exist, these events would be simultaneous.

Crono does not arrive simultaneously with Gaspar - there is no way this could be possible unless the End of Time was on the normal timeline.  But Gaspar is not influenced by any change made - therefore the End of Time cannot be on the normal timeline.  So, without Time Error, Gaspar and Crono's first arrivals would be simultaneous.  They obviously are not - so there must be another axis of time that creates "distance" between their arrivals.

[placidchap]

I'll admit that I am no physicist or mathematician so I never thought of how time and motion are related until you mentioned it Eske, so that kind of put the kaibosh on my statement that the entire thing should be retired.  But it is not in the realm of the impossible for the End of Time to reside on the normal timeline and not affected by the changes.  I mean the place is obviously not normal... although...
I really don't have a problem accepting the idea of more than one axis of time, in fact I love the idea of any extra dimension that can be thought of.  Going with that,  I had a thought in the shower this morning...

My understanding is that Time Error is only accessed when at the EoT or DBT (as for the gates, I will stick to my original statement, the one that Eske agreed with) and the time spent there some how manages to translate to the normal timeline when re-accessing it.  That is where my problem truly lies.  The explanation is pretty thin in the theory...(paraphrased)  "You leave normal time to TE at X.  You spend U in TE and when you return to normal time, you arrive at X+U or if you spend X + T in normal time, you arrive on TE at X+T" Why is that?  How does time spent on one time axis translate to another?  One would think that since they are perpendicular that time stands still to the other.  Going by what the theory suggests, they are basically flowing at the same time, where time U passed on TE translates to the original departure X to X+U when they return.  To me that would seem more like X+U².  Time does not freeze when at TE, as Gaspar can watch Crono during his adventure, which leads me to believe that both flow at the same time and if you spend U on TE, U also passes on normal time, so when you return you come back at X+U+U. 

Is there anything wrong with that logic?

[Eske]

If the model you based based that off of is from the Compendium's article about Time Error (which it looks to be) then you forget that the Compendium uses Time Error to explain how spending "time" in one era and then time travelling to 1000AD will put you at that time period plus the "time" you spent in the other era.  In other words, that theory assumes that Time Error flows for gates and the Epoch.

As for the End of Time still being on the normal timeline.....

The only way that the EoT can be on the normal timeline and yet not be influenced by it would be if the End of Time was not what its name implies, but the Edge of Time.  Basically, I'm saying the the EoT would always have to be "one unit of time" ahead of the normal timeline.  That would make the EoT a part of the timeline, yet disconnected because no causality would exist there.

^ It is interesting to note that the Japanese version of the EoT is called the "Farthest Reaches", I believe.