TTI/TB/TE Reformation Idea Collection

[Eske]

Yo guys, I've started this thread in light of tweaked views on TTI that have been surfacing as of late.  Many old ideas have been challenged or "adjusted" in the recent month or so but many of those new ideas have been based upon TTI/TB in their current forms.

To actually attempt to change one or both of these theories is huge and will probably alter our understanding of time travel in the Chronoverse completely.

Obviously this topic isn't my property, but I respectfully ask that people try to only post very fleshed out ideas (it doesn't have to be 5 pages or anything ridiculous).   That way, if the articles do get changed, or if additions are made, the editors can easily look through this thread, rather than pages and pages of comments.     I'll start with a problem that arises due to TTI/TB that I discussed in another thread.

Timeline Entropy

>>12000BC<<
Crono dies

>>End of Time<<
All playable characters are here (this matters)
Lucca, Marle, Frog have Time Egg and Doppel
These three take Epoch to 2300AD at Time X

>>2300AD<<
Epoch appears in air
Lucca, Marle, Frog, Doppel  climb Death Peak and enter gate to 12000BC
Lucca, Marle, Frog, Crono emerge from gate

Past has now been altered in 12000BC, timeline resets
========================================

>>12000BC<<
Lucca, Marle, Frog, Doppel appear but are not visible to others who are frozen
Doppel replaces Crono
Lucca, Marle, Frog, Crono enter gate to 2300AD
Doppel is destroyed by Lavos

>>End of Time<<
All playable characters are here
Lucca, Marle, Ayla have Time Egg and Doppel
These three take Epoch to 2300AD at Time X
Frog is TB'ed at Time X  (everyone at EoT is like 'wtf!?')


{{In the Chronoverse, there is no predestiny -- different choices can always be made in the present when the past is altered in any way as seen in-game}}

>>2300AD<<
Epoch appears in air -  Frog (protected by TTI) appears in the exact same spot he did before - Travel from the EoT will always take you to the same location on the planet.  Frog and Ayla literally appear inside eachother.Despite this, Lucca, Marle, Frog/Ayla combo (alive somehow)  climb Death Peak and enter the gate to 12000BC.
Lucca, Marle, Frog are TB'ed   --  Ayla is not.
Lucca, Marle, Frog, Ayla, Crono emerge from gate

The past has changed, timeline resets
=============================================================================

>>12000BC<<
The original Lucca, Marle, and Frog, Doppel appear - with Ayla now.
Whether or not Ayla's body is restored is up in the air.
Doppel replaces Crono
All 5 of them return to 2300AD - Lucca, Marle, Frog, Crono are TB'ed

^^ You have to feel bad for Ayla - not only was she fused with Frog for some time, but every time they enter a gate, her companions on the other side will be shocked and confused to see her because the party she is with keeps getting TB'ed.   And with her cavewoman knowledge, she could never figure it out much less explain it    =)

All I did was switch out a party member.  Not the most significant or complicated change - yet it produces terrible results.   

But it gets worse than freaky fusions:

You can repeat this process, eventually making all of the team vanish from the End of Time - fuse into eachother, become confused as to why their friends don't know how someone got there -  despite having had a conversation 5 seconds before entering a gate, etc.

This is a possibility predicted by the Compendium's theories.   Of course, with some luck, the same party members will always go to Death Peak and always perform every action at the exact same time, that way TTI/TB don't mess things up.

What if the party, in another runthrough, for whatever reason, needed an extra 2 seconds to set up the Doppel to replace Crono?

TB will destroy them before they have the chance - along with Crono.  The Doppel will just be lying on the ground so that when time unfreezes in 12000BC everyone will see Crono missing and a doll just laying on the ground a few feet away.

TTI/TB work in that they help preserve events that need to exist to avoid a paradox while preserving Conservation.

They do, but they create some other effect - like timeline entropy or something.
TTI and TB protect events that have occurred, but random variables allow for other events to arise that will also be protected by TTI.   This can continually reproduce itself until you have the ultimate result: 

Micro continuity sacrificed for Macro continuity.      To an outside observer (like the player), things won't even make sense anymore.  Events on a live timeline will be completely disconnected in favor of events that existed on dead timelines. 

It's not so bad though right?  Actually it is devastating -  With gates, things may not get too out of hand - but every instance of Epoch use has to be perfectly replicated  or else fusions will occur as I mentioned earlier.

But, I do believe this entropy can be applied to every time travel event.   So take the above and complicate it with small changes made for another, if not several time travel events that are not repeated.     I think things will get out of hand really quickly.

And.....go!

[chrono eric]

I think that the first thing we should do is to see how the new PTime theory (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,6789.0.html for people that haven't read it) has the potential for modifying TTI and TB.

It already provides a possible explanation for the Marle Paradox when combined with our observation that it could be a modification of the normal way that Time Bastard acts. But let's see what potential changes it could make to basic TTI and TB theory.

Let's view each time travel immunity and time bastard event as a matter of probability occurring within the new Prime Universe timeline. Each time an individual time travels, this event is "preserved" in subsequent timelines or Prime Universes. But what does this really mean? In PTime words, it means that the probability of an individual disappearing due to Time Bastard will occur if it is over 50% (100% probability is not necessary as far as my understanding of PTime goes, but perhaps 6502x86 could shed light on this). The same goes for Time Travellers Immunity. In normal instances of time travel, to prevent paradoxes and duplicates from occurring, the probability of Time Bastard and Time Travellers Immunity being in action to preserve changes to the timeline is over 50%.

But in the Marle Paradox example (see thread http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,6596.0.html) we have shown that if a time traveller alters the timeline such that his/her future self ceases to exist, then TB will take the "path of least resistance" and shunt the current version of the time traveller to the Darkness Beyond Time. This was our explanation for Marle's fate. PTime sheds light on the question "well why did Marle disappear and reappear at the times that she did?" by saying that once the probability that Marle ceased to exist in the future was raised above 50%, she was TB'd out, and once it fell below 50%, she reappeared back in the timeline.

So let's apply this modification to TB theory to a more general modification of TTI/TB theory. What if TTI/TB events in general aren't set in stone? What if TTI/TB events exist to prevent paradoxes from occurring in the timeline only? If the probability of a paradox occurring in the timeline is below 50%, then would TTI and TB events be preserved?

Ex:

A time traveller X at Time X goes back in time to Time X-100 and kills his grandfather. In the new timeline, time traveller X's disappearance at Time X and reappearance at Time X-100 is protected by TB/TTI, respectively, to prevent a paradox from occurring. Also in the new timeline, a time traveller Y goes back in time at Time X+10 to Time X-200 and sets a chain of events in motion that would prevent X's grandfather from being born. Does time traveller X still appear at Time X-100 by TTI?

In this case, no paradox involving time traveller X would exist anymore because of Y's actions. Time traveller X wouldn't even exist at Time X because his grandfather was never born. Would X still appear at Time X-100 due to TTI? Well there are two possible answers for this, none of which bode well for traditional TTI theory:

1) We can judge from the Marle example that TB would not wipe from existence all the atoms that once composed X's body at Time X and would instead take the "path of least resistance" and TB time traveller X at Time X-100 to prevent duplication of matter in the timeline.

-or-

2) Since the probability of a paradox being created by X's actions is 0, his appearance at Time X-100 via TTI is not necessary to prevent a paradox.


Both ways of looking at it are like two sides of the same coin. They have to do with probability. If one were to say that time traveller X would still appear due to TTI, they must give a reason why he would.

[FouCapitan]

A much better form of TTI than previously theorized.  Rather than make it absolute, it is subject to probability.  The PTime theorem constructs a solid base of rules for TTI and TB to follow, rather than leave them subject to paradox, or proven wrong when paradox's arise.

I'm also working on a seperate theory to open up an idea on the nature of the Darkness Beyond Time's Eclipse, one that I'm tentatively calling Time Ghost.  To summarize it so far, it's a theory that entities on non prime universe timelines my not be absolutely confined to the DBT if their origins remain in the Prime Universe's timeline.  This allows for beings from scrapped timelines to affect the course of the primary universe.  The most drastic example of this would be the pulling of Dinopolis from DBT into the primary universe in Chrono Cross.  A more subtle example not found in any of the games would be a time traveller who finds his/her universe wiped out (Not necessarily by their actions) who continues to exist in the prime universe.

I'll construct an individual thread for it once I have a more solid theory organized.

[chrono eric]

A much better form of TTI than previously theorized.  Rather than make it absolute, it is subject to probability.  The PTime theorem constructs a solid base of rules for TTI and TB to follow, rather than leave them subject to paradox, or proven wrong when paradox's arise.

Yes well, it still needs a lot of work I think. I put that together fast. There's probably some problems with it. We should all be able to come up with something more streamlined and better in this thread with our combined effort.

I'm also working on a seperate theory to open up an idea on the nature of the Darkness Beyond Time's Eclipse, one that I'm tentatively calling Time Ghost.  To summarize it so far, it's a theory that entities on non prime universe timelines my not be absolutely confined to the DBT if their origins remain in the Prime Universe's timeline.  This allows for beings from scrapped timelines to affect the course of the primary universe.  The most drastic example of this would be the pulling of Dinopolis from DBT into the primary universe in Chrono Cross.  A more subtle example not found in any of the games would be a time traveller who finds his/her universe wiped out (Not necessarily by their actions) who continues to exist in the prime universe.

Dinopolis wasn't pulled from the DBT, it was pulled from another parallel dimension. This is confirmed by Cross' script. What was pulled from the DBT though was the ruined future of the Dead Sea. The Dead Sea is described by Cross' script as representing the future of Home World based on the probability that that future would arise. Literally, the script uses the word probability. This was completely written off by the Compendium because they do not support the future being "set in stone" until actions occur to actualize that future. But our new theories, especially PTime, actually predict this - and it could open the floodgates to understanding the nature of the Dead Sea once and for all.

I was thinking about starting a Dead Sea thread about that, but there are too many new good threads open right now. I want to let those discussions play out for awhile.

And as for your topic of individuals emerging from dead timelines to effect the Prime Timeline - how about every instance of TTI? Every time a time traveller appears in the timeline due to TTI, they are technically coming from a previous timeline that has been discarded.

[placidchap]

Ok, so I have a problem with TB…not entirely sure what it is but it doesn’t feel right, to say the least.  So here is an attempt to modify that theory, a neo-TB if you will allow it.

Almost all examples of time travel in CT occur in the following manner:
Person C is from 1000 AD, then subsequently travels back to 600AD.  C does not substantially alter the past.  C eventually returns home to 1000.  There is no duplicate to be seen.  This is not because of TB, but because no alteration of the past occurred to prevent C from time travelling in the first place and C comes after they originally left.

Quick guide to the symbols:
[ will represent forward time travel
] will represent backwards time travel
------ represents time where the person is not present on the time line.

a represents the depature
b represents the arrival
The numbers 1 and 2 represent the sequence of occurrence…1a then 1b and then 2a then 2b and so on…

example.

      600AD                         1000AD
]_1b CCCC[_2a-----------CCCCCCCC]_1a--[_2b CCCC

Occurrence of events, relative to the person travelling
]_1a – leaving 1000AD
]_1b – arriving @ 600AD
[_2a – leaving 600AD
[_2b – arriving back in 1000AD, after he originally left

With this example, there is no real problem with travelling in time.  Person C does not cross his own path at anytime.

The following example will change it so C does cross his own path.

      600AD                         1000AD
]_1b CCCC[_2a-----------CCCC[_2b CCCC]_1a------

Occurrence of events, relative to the person travelling
]_1a – leaving 1000AD
]_1b – arriving @ 600AD
[_2a – leaving 600AD
[_2b – arriving back in 1000AD, before he originally left

Now here we have a potential problem.  C comes back to his present before he left.  Now there are supposedly two C persons walking around.  Here I propose a reverse TB, where once the “original” C comes back at [_2b he disappears and the “new” C continues on until ]_1a, going back in time to ]_1b, creating a temporal loop where the whole process is continuously repeated!

Now to prove, at least with the events in Trigger, that this could hold true…I present the two examples that I can think of that would challenge this.  Robo and the desert, as well as Janus/Magus.

    600AD            1000AD                                                   2300AD
]_1bRRR]_2bRR[_3aRRRRRRRRRRR]_2a------------------------------RRRRRRRR]_1a

]_1a – arriving @ End of Time
]_1b – leaving End of Time to 600 AD, to work the fields
]_2a – leaving 1000AD, after being fixed up
]_2b – arriving in 600AD, to see himself work the fields
[_3a – leaving 600AD

RRR – might seem like a temporal loop, based on my theory, however notice that it is not the same as the example with C.  Here R is only travelling back in time, there is no forward travelling that complicated the 2nd C example. 
A temporal loop would occur if R travels from [_3a  to a time before ]_2a ,which would create [_3bRRRR]_2a

    12000BC                      600AD
JJJJJJJJJJJJJ[_1a--------------------------------------[_1bJJJJJMMMMM<dies>  (before Crono goes back in time)
    12000BC                      600AD
JJJJ]_2bMJMJ[_1aM[_3a---------------------------------[_1bJJJJJMMMM]_2a----

[_1a – flashback gate w/ Janus & “black” gate
[_1b – arriving @ 580AD
]_2a – leaving 600AD
]_2b – arriving @ 12000BC
[_3a  –   arriving @ End of Time, from 12k BC
[_3b  –   arriving @ in 600AD anytime after ] 2a

JJJJJMMMM – would seem to be a temporal loop, however, this again is different from the C example as the 1 series comes before the 2 series. 
(Another deciding factor could be the metamorphosis of Janus to Magus…may not be considered the same sentient being, as he arrives as Janus, but leaves as Magus)

Conclusion:  Temporal loop only occurs if  [_(n+x)b      ]_(n)a  and there are duplicate persons.  Saying that, it is possible in the R example with [_3bRRRR]_2a to not create a loop, assuming R goes far enough back past ]_1b to not cross his own path at (or after)]_1b.  If R goes back 5 minutes before that time and waits, the old version with disappear and the loop will commence once ]_1b hits.

I believe this to hold true if a significant change occurs in the past as well.

A couple Q&A.

Why does the older one disappear and not the one with the least seniority? 
Because the two are the same person, from the same circumstances and variables, with the older one being foreign to the time they appeared in.  New gets priority because they “belong” there.

Why can both coexist if a substantial change occurred in the past? 
Because they are now two “different” beings, meaning that they come from two different sources of variables, they are now considered two separate beings. The old version becomes a true time bastard as the original circumstances no longer occur for the old version to exist.  But due to the fact the old version was not in the present for the change when it occurred, the old version is not affected and is now a bastard of time.

Why can the “old” exist even if the “old” prevents himself from being born? 
Same as above, except there is now only one version, the old one.  He would be a stranger to everyone he used to know.

let me know if that makes any sense...

[chrono eric]

I will have to think on this. Notice that your theory also predicts that if someone were to alter the timeline so that they still existed but never time travelled in the first place, upon returning to the future after the original instance of time travel one of them would have to be TB'd away. It complicates things by making the instance of TB not occur at the point of original time travel but instead at the point of an individuals return to that time period. This seems to imply that conservation of matter/energy only matters for a specific point of time, but I don't think this makes sense.

I also am not sure about this:

Why can the “old” exist even if the “old” prevents himself from being born? 
Same as above, except there is now only one version, the old one.  He would be a stranger to everyone he used to know.

Because there would still be a duplication of matter (think of what we were discussing with the Marle Paradox). In which case that matter would have to disappear as per your theory and traditional Time Bastard theory. By using your logic, your theory seems to suggest that the matter of all of the individual atoms that were once a part of the "old" time travellers body would remain and the time traveller himself would disappear since he would be foreign to the timeline. In this sense, it actually predicts that Marle would disappear since she altered the future in a way in which she would never exist. Which is damn cool if you ask me  .

Another potential problem with this is the fact that at the end of the game, Robo returns to a timeline in which he presumably was still created in 1999 AD. Your theory would predict that our Robo would have less seniority and disappear in favor of the new Robo, correct? Well then, why does he agree to help Belthesar with Project Kid if he wouldn't remember the adventure that he had with Crono and co? That is potentially a fatal flaw for this theory, which sucks because it seems to explain the Marle Paradox so well.

Thoughts Placidchap? And Eske too for that matter.

[Eske]

With the second C example, he will land in his own time. Then, the "new" C will exist until "original" C's departure at Time X.  If the "new" C, for any reason, does not leave at Time X, he will be TB'ed where he stands and the "original" will be permitted to live on.

Looking at what you said about duplicates before presenting the models, I think I understand your logic. But I think this is what the Compendium was getting at:

TTI preserves the entry of the time traveller into an era, but when the past is changed in any way, a new version of the time traveller will enter the gate.  Would this new version have TTI as well?  Here is the problem of duplicates:

Time X, Time Error 0 - Crono A travels to Time X-400.
Time X-400, Crono A arrives. The past is changed (in any way) therefore...

Time X, Time Error 1 - Crono B travels to Time X-400.
Time X-400, Crono A and Crono B arrive.

Not only does this violate Conservation, but because every subsequent Crono arrival would further change the past, a new Crono would be set to appear at Time X-400 with every advancement in Time Error.  This is the first thing that needs to be handled.

Second, why is the new version eliminated?  It is actually the same reason, only on a more minute scale.
Example:

Time X, Time Error 0 - Crono A travels to Time X-400.
Time X-400, Crono arrives and changes the past so that he will have eventually gained a new scar on his cheek. Also, he gets a portrait done while he is there.

Time X, Time Error 1 - Crono B travels to Time X-400.
Time X-400, Crono B replaces Crono A (reverse TB).

No problem right?  But wait, Crono B has a scar now. That means the portrait will change because the painter will have seen something that he did not see in Time Error's past.  Assuming Crono B makes the exact same changes to also result in the scar being formed and changes nothing else, then the timeline should stabilize.

But it won't, no one can make such perfect actions - too many random variables.  The new Crono will keep making slight changes to the past in a different way than his predecessor did, resulting in an infinite loop of changes.

The only way to solve both issues above is to have the "original" always win out over his subsequent versions.

Until literally this moment, I assumed that reverse TB was only possible when you rendered yourself non existant - the Marle Paradox.  Why?  Because you already do not exist in the future, so deleting you in the past has no bearing on the matter that once comprised you.

But now I realize that this is impossible as well.  If you changed the past so that you lost an arm before time travelling, the same rule would apply.  Which means the old you would appear from the gate - and the arm would eventually be reverse-TB'ed because that matter now exists elsewhere - but that would further change the past like the example above - possibly creating a loop.  ugh

Damn, I guess the Marle Paradox is still unsolved   

The thing with TB is, it doesn't care if the new version chooses to travel at Time X or not.  If you drew Crono's Personal Timeline  out on paper on top of a timeline, you should be able to keep tracing the line back and forth on the timeline without lifting your pencil.  If reverse TB existed, you would have to break that continuity.  To preserve it, the new version will always vanish, even if you render yourself non existant, the matter that would have comprised you will also vanish (damnit damnit), and you will continue to live on.

That's how it is, but it obviously can't be right, because of Marle's example.  ugh.


EDIT: forgot a word lol

[chrono eric]

Damn Eske, I can't believe I overlooked such a simple and obvious reason for the older version needing to be TB'd away than the simple fact of duplicates emerging from the gate in the past. I got so hung up on the fact that Placidchap's theory seemed to predict the Marle Paradox situation that I overlooked that. Dumb I is. Placidchap cannot be right because of that. Which is a shame.

Ahem.

But now I realize that this is impossible as well.  If you changed the past so that you lost an arm before time travelling, the same rule would apply.  Which means the old you would appear from the gate - and the arm would eventually be reverse-TB'ed because that matter now exists elsewhere - but that would further change the past like the example above - possibly creating a loop.  ugh

Damn, I guess the Marle Paradox is still unsolved   

Yes, this is predicted by our explanation of reverse Time Bastard. I can't believe we didn't think of this either. But I'm not so sure how it would create a loop. Example:

Person A time travels at Time X to Time X-400. Once there he alters the future so that Person A' in the new timeline loses his arm in his childhood. The moment that this happens, Person A in the past loses his arm as per reverse Time Bastard occurring.

In the new timeline, Person A' is TB'd away at Time X. Person A emerges at Time X-400 but he doesn't lose his arm until the moment that the future is altered beyond 50% probability that Person A' 's arm would be lost (as per PTime theory). If somehow the timeline is altered in the past as a result of Person A not having an arm anymore, such that Person A' in the future does not lose his arm, then reverse TB would simply reinstate the arm of Person A in the past, just as what happens to Marle.

Is there something I am missing? I don't see how a loop is created here.

[Eske]

Oh snap, I forgot about PTime!

Thank you,  you completely saved the Marle Paradox solution.  I only set it aside because a loop is created without PTime (not necessarily an infinite loop) ::

Person A goes back, changes stuff blah blah
Person B (A') has only 1 arm now.
Person A's timeline "finishes out"
Then Person B then appears in the past (reverse TB erases Person A)
His altered form changes the past yet again, forcing a new him, Person C (A'')  to go back in time.
Memories aside, the loops should end here.

^^ the above is based on the old model we used which we called "Time Error" (even though it wasn't).  Timelines finished before going to the DBT  (I used it to explain the Black Omen future thing and why Crono/Lucca's timeline didn't get discarded when Marle went to 600AD etc).

Since we have PTime, which is better, that minor loop effect no longer applies.

Yay Marle Paradox being solved(ish) again!

=================================================================

From what I have seen, the old models of TTI/TB create problems (Timeline Entropy) and fail to provide reasonable solutions to important in-game puzzles  (Marle Paradox/Ayla Paradox).  If we are willing to take that leap and say that perhaps the Chrono series really does separate mind from body - literally - then maybe we have most of the answers after all.

We see in the joke endings that time travellers can have their bodies altered, but not their minds.
While non-time travellers can have both altered.  But why?

Continuity.  If I remember something as "always being that way", yet I am the cause for its state of being, then I will not perform the actions to generate such a "memory" -   causal loop.  But if the things I have done do not influence my memory, there isn't necessarily a danger of my counterparts undoing them.

This leads to "reverse time bastard" being the only real form of it. Every subsequent change in the past comes with a possibility that time travellers' bodies may somehow be altered or even vanish altogether.  So... the final step would be to run through the events in the game and try out other logic puzzles to make sure that full reverse TB would not completely undo the game.  I'll run an example first:

Person A travels from 1000 to 600  (AD)
Person A alters the past so that his counterpart, Person B (A'), will have lost an arm.
At such a Time X where it is more than 50/50 chance that Person B will have lost an arm, Person A will have his arm reverse-TB'ed.

^^Nothing seems too wrong here. Other than Person A probably freaking out.  He quickly scrambles to correct whatever he did, does so, and 50/50 falls back in his arm's favor, restoring the arm for Person A and all counterparts at the new Time Y.   <---- Pretty much the Marle example right here.

I might be missing something obvious, but running through the game in my head, I don't see anything wrong with reverse-TB.

Here is a fun puzzle though.    By this model, Marle disappears at Time X when there is more than a 50% chance that Leene will not be saved.  Note that she does not disappear when Leene dies, but far before it.
With that in mind:

Robo A = Cultivating Fiona's forest in 600AD
Robo B = Robo rebuilt in 1000AD

Robo B goes back in time to see Robo A working on the land.  They see eachother and greet. Note that new memories will NOT force a change in Robo B (the time traveller) under this model.

So, Robo B, for whatever reason, punches Robo A in the chest, creating a dent.    The question is, at what point before/during the punch will Robo B have a dent appear from nowhere??

This is interesting because the Robo who creates the dent will see the dent before he even makes it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some clever people out there might be saying "hey Eske, wait, what about the defeat of Lavos - shouldn't that follow the same rules?"   

Sure does, but that doesn't matter.   If Crono is fighting Lavos, brings it to the point of death, and "senses" the new future being brought into existence and then decides to stop fighting Lavos, this new future will soon be undone because the chance that he will defeat Lavos will creep below 50% again.


I love looking at time travel this way - it's so liquid.

[placidchap]

Time to elaborate.  I saw some mention of what I am about to elaborate on, which is good as that means we could come to a proper conclusion;always easier when people are on or near the same page...

Correct me if I am wrong but:

Currently - matter/energy has to remain constant over time as a whole
e.g. person C's mass = 5; total mass @ 600.0 is X+5; total mass @ 1000.5 is X-5; total mass at all points in time = X

Me -  matter/energy has to remain constant at each instance of time. 
e.g. person C's mass = 5; total mass @ 600.0 is X as the +5 is displaced into total mass at 1000.5 where there is a -5, so total mass @ 600.0 and 1000.5 is X.  therefore mass/energy is a liquid force.

Another difference:

Currently - duplicate can not exist in matter/energy.  Duplicates result in a TB when C’ reaches the time where C travelled.  (I think)

Me - Duplicates can not exist in conscience (mind).  Since mass/energy is a liquid force as I mentioned, duplicate mass/energy is not a problem, as C’ would just be born from the mass/energy already present at that instant.  Neo-dupes result in a reverse TB when C’ and C exist at the same time, e.g. 1000.5


Now on to my examples:

The following two are examples of instances where C does not alter the past in any major way.

600                 1000
]CCCC[------------------CCCCC]-[CC

Let's have C going back in time at 1000.5 and arriving at 600.0.  C remains in the past until 600.4 and arrives in 1000 at 1000.7.  Assuming there is no major change to C’s circumstances, he will arrive in 1000.7, having non-existed from just after 1000.5 to just a moment before 1000.7.   If one were to record this and play it on a loop, it would be the same outcome every time.


600                          1000
]CCCC[------------------CC[CCC]-----

Here C comes back at 1000.3 before he left at 1000.5.  Since C came back to a time where an exact mental duplicate exists, the C with the most seniority vanishes, as he is 'foreign' to 1000.3.  When I say exact, I mean 'cut from the same cloth', as their experiences are obviously different, but their essence is the same.  From the perspective of C, he is stuck in a time loop, as he continues to 1000.5 where he travels back in time and the cycle repeats, C none the wiser.  Anyone else watching would just observe C disappear into a time gate at 1000.5 and never return as time moved forward from 1000.5.  Since the original C vanishes, there is no instance where there is a duplicate of mind. 



Now onto instances where C changes things in the past which results in changes in his circumstances.  Assume the new C has a different temperament or alignment (evil).

Evil C (eC) is born from matter/energy present at his birth and when he arrives at the time that good C (gC) travelled to 600.0 there is an amount of mass that was displaced from 600.0 when  (gC) traveled back in time.  There is no duplication of matter here.  The mass of the universe still = X.

Here is the first pass of time with time travel

600           Leaves at 1000.3
----------------------------------------gCgCgCgCgC]

Now the second pass, {X} being the major change that causes eC instead of gC at 1000.0
 600                     1000
]gCgC{X}gCgC[------------------eCeCeCeCeC]--[gC

The 3rd pass, gC being .2 ahead of eC when eC returns from the past (explained below)
 600                    1000
]eCeCeCeC[------------------eCeCeCeCeC]--[eCgC


What, if anything, happens to gC and when?  Does he disappear at {X} or when he steps into [  at 600.4?  Or does he continue to exist and arrive at 1000.7 because they are no longer 'cut from the same cloth' with gC becoming a bastard of time existing in on a foreign (to him) timeline?  Being consistent with my theory, I presume gC will continue to exist since their essence is no longer the same.  The reason gC and eC don't see each other is that gC is ahead of eC by .2 on the new timeline, with eC essentially 'eating' (overwriting) gC's past as the clock ticks away.  gC will still remember what he does ('relative history'), but absolute history is being overwritten.  The .2  comes from the time before the {X}, where until eC goes through the time gate for the first time, the essence that makes eC doesn't exist, but the essence of gC does . 

Perhaps this might explain Marle?  The equivalent of eC for Marle would be her non-existence.  The non-existence overwrites the Marle that we see and she physically disappears.  The reason we see this could be explained by Marle leaving at 1000.0 - 600.0 years, Crono leaving at 1000.1 - 600.0 years.  Marle arrives at 600.0 and Crono at 600.1.  Since the new timeline occurs starting at about 600.0 and Crono arrives at 600.1, the altered timeline is now even keel with the Crono and Lucca that we know.  (They were .1 ahead of the new timeline, explaining why these versions don't just automatically forget and since they arrived in the past .1 after time changed, it evens out.)  Since time caught up with them in the past they don't lose their memories of Marle which would make sense as they are the 'original' Crono and Lucca.  Another point I'd like to make, is that both her non-existence and her original conscience exist at the same time, which further proves my duplicate of the mind portion of this ramble.

This would be saying that time doesn't necessarily change 'instantly', only relative to the person who is experiencing it.  Which is why it seems like the mayor in Porre(?) seems to instantly change to being nice once the jerky is given to his ancestor.  It instantly changes for the group that is travelling time as they are travelling from the past to the future on the new timeline...but for everyone that is .1 in front of this new timeline where the mayor is a jerk, nothing has changed.  We just can't access the old timeline...

Continuing the last example...

If on the second pass gC returns to a time before he originally left...
 600                         1000
]gCgC{X}gCgC[------------------eCeCeC[gCeCeC]--

They can both exist at the same time, as their essence is different.  No loop occurs here.

I'll leave it at that for now...see if that helps my case or not...spent too much time on this as it is  : /

[chrono eric]

Hmmm I will have to think about this a little Placidchap. One thing you said I do agree with 100% though, and that is that if a time traveller were to alter the past in such a way so that he would not be composed of the same atoms in the future but still exist in the future in some form, than TB would not be necessary to preserve matter (I think this is what you were trying to say).

@ Eske - PTime offers an explanation for the situation in Chrono Cross too (with a slight modification to PTime theory). CC states that the dimensions were split when there was exactly a 50/50 chance of Serge surviving. This was largely discredited by everyone and I pretty much forgot about it until Thought brought it up in the other thread. That means that via PTime, if there is over a 50% chance of something occurring in the Prime Universe then it will occur, and if there is under a 50% chance then it won't occur - thus creating a stable situation. Everything under 50% is sent to the DBT. But if there is exactly a 50/50 chance of something occurring, it can't be sent to the DBT - instead creating a dimensional split. PTime is seeming to be a really good theory for predicting events in the the Chrono series. One thing it also potentially explains is the Dead Sea (I'm still working on that Dead Sea thread).

For now, I think we should use it along with reverse TB to try to tackle some other confusing plot-events of the Chronoverse.

Also, I'm not really sure your Robo getting punched example applies for reverse TB since no matter/energy is really lost from the dented Robo. In that case, I think the Robo from 1000 AD will still be protected from TTI.

[ryu planeswalker]

I would like to toss a theory about The Mechanics of time in, using your example of Robo Denting himself, you guys say when he dents himself, the dent should appear, what if TTI/TB ect don't preserve the exact causes but still maintain the effects, so when Robo Punches himself and causes a dent, as he is walking away he kicks a rock...trips and lands on a rock which causes the exact same dent.

[chrono eric]

Well, if you ask me, I think that unnecessarily complicates things by invoking some unknown, almost supernatural force to preserve timeline continuity. It violates a basic premise of the Chrono series, that there is no such thing as predestiny.

[ryu planeswalker]

Yes, but TTI/TB are skirting the predestiny edge themselves, Regardless of what happens, One form of Robo is going to get TBed, if applied my theory can sort of fix some of the dower bits of the Cross ending, instead of Ideal World Serge getting TBed, he finds the Cross while at the Beech with Leena, grabs it and the power of the Cross Fixes Serge's Memories.

[Eske]

@chrono eric:  I don't think it's just about the matter itself, but the state of the being.   Instead of a lost arm example use a broken arm  --  all the same matter might be present, but does that mean Crono will always exit the gate with his arm intact?  I don't think so.   Even scars, new birthmarks, everything should be affected.  Mind/memories excluded, of course.