Why is this still believed?

[Crimian]

I just looked at the Chrono Trigger General FAQ, and it states:

How do I get New Game +?

Defeat Queen Zeal in the Black Omen, then kill Lavos to win the game. At the end, reset and start a new game. Note that if you already defeated her but gated out of the Lavos battle, you can still fight Lavos and access the new game.

Why is it still believed that you unlock NG+ by beating the Black Omen, when in truth you unlock NG+ for beating the game under any circumstance?

[idioticidioms]

probably because some people have never tried beating the game the first time without going through the Black Omen and defeating Zeal. They have limited experience and thus make fact out of something that they haven't really checked out fully. Par for the course with people.

[V_Translanka]

Why is it still believed that you unlock NG+ by beating the Black Omen, when in truth you unlock NG+ for beating the game under any circumstance?

What about defeating Ocean Palace Lavos? Can you get NG+ by defeating Lavos as soon as you gain access to the EoT? And this doesn't seem like a CTDS thing...*moves thread*

[idioticidioms]

Yeah, you can get NG+ by defeating Lavos in the Ocean Palace. I did it once, by power-levelling the hell out of my chars in Magus' Castle to get Luminaire for Crono before fighting Magus. It is possible to defeat it in that instance the first time through without cheats, just very hard, as for as soon as you hit the EoT, I'm pretty sure you can, though I haven't tried. Power-levelling before that point is very time-consuming and boring.

[utunnels]

Yeah, it is really hard since you will lack magic defense.
I managed to defeat the shell easily once, so I though I can take its second form too.
But it slew the team with one shot, sigh.

[Crimian]

Although I will admit that I have never personally tried defeating Lavos upon first entering the EoT (non-NG+, of course), I see no reason why the creators wouldn't have had it enable NG+, seeing as how you can defeat him later in the game through the bucket (the first time I ever beat it, I used this method), and you do unlock it.  The bucket, crashing the Epoch, not losing in the Ocean Palace, and going through the Black Omen are all viable ways to unlock NG+, so I don't see the creators going out of their way to arbitrarily set a "Now you can unlock NG+" point on the bucket method. *shrug*

[placidchap]

If that is the case then one of the main reasons why the CC believes that they fought Lavos in 12k bc is now irrelevant.  That reason being, that to get NG+, you must go through the Black Omen and fight Zeal.

[Crimian]

When I have time, I'll attempt a first-run ASAP Lavos kill on the SNES version to be sure of my assumption about that particular method.

[V_Translanka]

I always thought you had to get the final chapter title (The Final Battle) in your save in order to then get access to NG+ after you defeated Lavos, which would mean you'd have to go through the Black Omen at least once...

[Crimian]

That's simply not the case; Black Omen is not necessary for NG+.

[V_Translanka]

Then why are there times when people can't gain access to it...? What is the deciding factor?

[Crimian]

Well, there might actually be an arbitrary "Now you can unlock NG+" point.  I just did a pre-run using cheats to see if it was possible to unlock NG+ upon entering the EoT on a first run, and apparently it is not.  When I typed up my initial question, the "under any circumstance" was actually referring to your three options after the Blackbird, although the fact that I hadn't even been thinking of endings other than "Beyond Time" and "Reunion" made me totally overlook what I was actually saying.  *attempts to remove foot from mouth*

To (attempt to) answer your question, though: since there does seem to be at least some threshold you have to pass before NG+ will unlock, perhaps it is when you open the door to the ocean palace, since idioticidioms has stated that he has, indeed, unlocked NG+ by defeating Lavos at the Ocean Palace.  What I know from personal experience, however, is that I was able to unlock NG+ the first time I ever beat the game by defeating Lavos via the bucket, without venturing through the Ocean Palace.  Perhaps the deciding factor is getting the "Beyond Time" or "Reunion" endings (or, perhaps, "The Dream Project," if what idioticidioms stated was true).

[chrono eric]

If that is the case then one of the main reasons why the CC believes that they fought Lavos in 12k bc is now irrelevant.  That reason being, that to get NG+, you must go through the Black Omen and fight Zeal.

Yeah, but the other reason - that the Chrono Cross script mentions that the scientists in 2300 AD knew "nothing" of Lavos except inferences from other possible timelines is still troubling to me.

Not to doubt Idioms, but perhaps you could play through the game with your cheats Crimian, defeating Lavos at set points and determine at which point you can really access NG+? I'm sure it wouldn't take that long really.

[V_Translanka]

Make sure to delete the files of your previous saves so that the NG+ option isn't already available...!

And, wait, what are these cheats and are we sure they aren't somehow interfering?

[Crimian]

The issue with previous saves is why I decided to use an SNES emulator and cheat.  Also, using an emulator would make it easier to provide proof, should it have worked, that I was telling the truth.  As to the nature of the cheats themselves, it was simply to get to the maximum level without wasting too much time.  I don't think that would interfere with whether or not NG+ would unlock.

Also, for the record, that was the first time I've used cheats on CT, so that didn't impact my unlocking of NG+ the first time I beat it.