The cyclic time theory: a possible answer to the gates, the Nu and misc stuff.

[Foxx]

For a long time i've been pondering with this theory, hoping that it could solve a few mysteries, but i'm surprised that no-one (that I know of) have proposed the Chrono Trigger timeline to be cyclic rather than linear.
I know that CT and CC are fictional works, but still I couldn't help thinking about it.

What is it?
The basic idea is to take the timeline of the games and then loop it, connecting the beginning to the end, in essence creating a time ring of sorts as on the figure below:



As you can see i've only marked the ages during which CT take place, but it could in theory be added to the rest of the games as well.

Branching the ring: Multiverse
let's take an example:

Lavos does not crash into the planet in 65 mil. BC and it creates the Reptite dimension

from this we can deduct at least two outcomes, Lavos crashes and Lavos does not crash. The main time ring stays in place, but at the diversion (where Lavos is supposed to crash) branches out in 65 mil. BC and this outcome creates a new universe and therefore a new time ring with the Reptite dimension as we know it. The branching will happen every time an action is taken with multiple possible outcomes ANYWHERE in the universe, thus creating a near infinite amount of universes in exsistence at once.

The gates
The gates in the game together with real world science theories brings up the reason as to why i'm writing this. Considering that the gates can really travel back in time or only to the future is mostly what this theory hinges on. A second question can be raised:

What if the gates themselves branch?

What I mean by this can be best explained with another example, namely the telepod scene in CT where the crew travel back in time to 600 AD. To explain this all the way through I will have to tell a little about wormholes (considering the gates are wormholes and operate on the same mechanics as in the real world):

Contrary to many earlier theories (and partly the theory of relativity), it is not physically possible to travel back in time (even at faster than light speeds) unless a near infinite (if not infinite) amount of energy is used. But it is possible to travel forward in time (which we constantly do), even moreso by using wormholes.

In general, wormholes can be used as a shortcut between two distant parts of the universe, which generally means that the ends of the wormhole are at two different locations, and that the hole itself follows a relatively straight line.
But also, if the ends of the wormholes are close together (ex. by making the throat of the wormhole longer and coil it up like an electrical wire that's too long) you get the opposite effect, where the object takes longer to pass through than normally.

Back to the CT crew at the telepod: When they travel back in time, the wormhole/gate transports them past 1999AD, past 2300AD, past the end and beginning of the time ring and all the way around to the year 600AD. Considering a sort of Stargate-esque wormhole (where all atoms of the travelers are broken down and rebuilt on the other side), the crew wouldn't know that they have spent countless years inside the wormhole itself.
If the CT crew choose to take the very same gate back to 1000AD, another branch of the wormhole would transport them there. An illustration of the example can be seen below:



The red line above shows the crew travelling back to 600AD, and the green one shows when they travel forward in time to 1000AD
Time eggs, being the small gates in a neat package that they are, can work in the same way.

The second thing is the conservation of matter and energy law where only three people can travel through a gate at the same time. For a wormhole to be traversable, it would require it to be completely stable (else Crono & co. would emerge on the other side as minced meat). As a failsafe, the Entity or whoever made the gates made the wormholes branch off to the EoT. This means that there is a tolerance for the mass and energy of three people for normal travel, but if this tolerance is exceeded, the failsafe kicks in and transport the crew to the EoT aka. the point of least resistance in the spacetime continuum.

The NU
as mentioned in the game, the Nu were the beginning and the end. If added to this theory, it could be, that the Nu are somehow able to survive every revolution of the time ring, that they can survive the complete wrap-around or "format C:" of the universe.

The EoT
The End of Time is still a perpendicular dimension to this and every other universe/ time ring. As time does not really flow in the EoT, it can not really be considered a time ring. But if we make a comparison between the time ring and an electron orbiting an atomic nucleus, the electron will always search for the point of least possible resistance, and that is as close to the nucleus as possible. From this, we can postulate that the EoT is smack-dap in the middle of the time ring, AKA. the point of least resistance.

Since Gaspar & Spekkio can keep an eye on ALL time rings from the EoT, one could imagine that the EoT be compared to the spindle that drives the magnetic platters in a hard drive. The pillars in the EoT would also be able to branch off into all the different ages in all possible dimensions.

Lavos pocket dimension
The Lavos pocket dimension is also not a time ring per se, but rather a point on the time ring map (as he most probably doesn't exist in every possible time ring, Reptite dimension being a good exaple again). This point is situated in a place between the time ring and the EoT. Lavos, as powerful as he may be, is able to walk his way toward the time ring itself, but this requires that he uses A LOT of his energy for popping out of the ground in 1999AD and say hi.

The Epoch
The Epoch holds up here too if the antiproton drive works the way I think it does, namely that it opens a sort of gate-ish wormhole that it passes through.

Do say if I missed something 

[chrono eric]

but i'm surprised that no-one (that I know of) have proposed the Chrono Trigger timeline to be cyclic rather than linear.

It's okay, I forgive you 

Each rung in the ladder of Time Error could be viewed as a self contained universe in a state of eternal recurrence. It has to be this way, otherwise it wouldn't explain why two time travellers travelling apart as per the first example would arrive at the same point of Time Error (think about it and you'll realize this is the case).

Time Error 0: Universe begins, Crono Time travels to Time X-400, Marle remains. Eventually the universe ends. This version of the universe doesn't have Crono existing at Time X-400.

Time Error 1: Universe begins again, Crono appears at Time X-400. This version of the universe has Crono existing at Time X-400. etc.

But seriously, I always planned to make a thread about cyclical time/eternal recurrence in the Chronoverse - but you've done it better than I could. Good show.

[Foxx]

well you're right, there's something that slipped

I will need to think about that matter.

but the problem is that when Crono goes back to 600AD, the original time ring branches off (creating a new time ring with Crono existing in 600AD), the original time ring is left unharmed except for Crono who is missing and will loop that way forever.

When time wraps aorund it all starts going on and on excactly the same way as it did the first time with Crono being born and then disappearing through the gate.
Cono is then "stored" in the wormhole until the universe wraps around and reaches the year 600AD . As soon as the gate in 600AD opens, the new reality with Crono in 600AD branches off. Other realities are also created such as for example Crono appearing in 600AD as a turd sandwich.

so in essence there are no real time errors because it's supposed to happen in the universe were Crono emerges.

[chrono eric]

I think you misunderstand, because by "Time Error" we meant a perceived 5D movement through time. The word "Time Error" was originally applied to the fact that Crono and co. appear to exist on their own time axis in the Chronoverse - time passes for them independently from the timeline, and they see for themselves the changes that they made to the timeline and remember them. Time Error was initially invoked to represent this apparent 5D movement through time. Eske and I have been using it recently as an easy way of representing sequential "5D" events by Time Error 0, Time Error 1, 2, etc. - in which a timeline changes at each Time Error point.

However, if you view time as cyclical in the Chronoverse, then there is no 5D component to it. Time only exists as a fourth dimension (with the exception of the End of Time). Crono and co. do not make a 5D movement through time when they time travel, they just time travel past the end and the beginning of the universe and back to a point on the new universe, which becomes the new timeline. Using Time Error in this sense is perhaps a misnomer, but it can still be used as a viable model.

[placidchap]

For a long time i've been pondering with this theory, hoping that it could solve a few mysteries, but i'm surprised that no-one (that I know of) have proposed the Chrono Trigger timeline to be cyclic rather than linear.

http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,5965.msg123615/topicseen.html#msg123615

I did mention it along with a similar diagram...but I didn't continue thinking of why it would be necessary or why it would or would not work...

[chrono eric]

What's interesting about this theory is that it potentially completely does away with Time Travellers Immunity and with Time Bastard in many circumstances. What do I mean by this? Well, check this example out:

First universe: Person A time travels at Time X to Time X-400. Eventually this universe ends.

Second Universe: Universe begins again. Person A (from the previous universe) appears at Time X-400. He does not significantly alter the future to prevent his instance of Time Travel. Person A then time travels to Time X-1000. At Time X Person A' (from this universe) enters a gate and heads to Time X-400. Universe ends.

Third Universe: Universe begins again. Person A (from the first universe) appears at Time X-1000 and significantly alters the future so that his counterparts never time travel in the first place. Person A' (from the second universe) appears at Time X-400 regardless of the events that Person A changed - he would find a drastically altered past from the one he is familiar with. Person A'' from this universe does not time travel at Time X. Because Person A" does not time travel at Time X, I believe that he will be TB'd away at that time to conserve matter/energy. Note that this is the only instance in which TB has been necessary so far. Universe ends.

-But look what happens if none of the time travelling counterparts of Person A time travel again in the Third Universe:

Fourth Universe: Universe begins again. Because none of the counterparts of Person A time travelled in Universe Three, none of them appear in the Fourth Universe at any times. The universe starts again anew and everything happens exactly as it did in the First Universe, until Time X when Person A presumably starts his time travel trip anew.

Notice that because of the eternal recurrence cycle there are no problems of paradoxes, duplicates, or matter/energy conservation. Time Bastard and Time Traveller's Immunity are not necessary, with every instance of another version of a time traveller simply arriving in the next universe in the cycle. And the final demonstration that TTI and TB are not necessary in a cyclical timeline in the Chronoverse:

Because Crono and co. did not alter the future so that they never time travelled in the first place, all future versions of the universe will contain a copy of them arriving in 1999 AD to defeat Lavos, and so the ruined future will be replaced in all subsequent universes until somebody attempts to undo the effects of their time travel.

I like it  . Talk about TTI reform, this complete does away with it.

[Foxx]

It was meant to do away with TTI and TB, especially since the TTI and TB theories are starting to tighten into a very hard knot IMO
It's like shedding a new light on the universe like Albert Einstein & co. I'm bound to get flamed for it, but nevertheless, it can give answers on questions where TTI and TB seem to fail, which is what I wanted really...
(gah I pressed post by accident )

But remember that Lavos won't be destroyed in ALL universes, remember those where Crono & co get mauled by various monsters and bosses? ofc. those universes will contain an undefeated Lavos.

[Eske]

What about when Serge travels into the past via the Time Egg in CC?  He would loop around and complete that universe.

This theory would hold that despite passing thousands or possibly millions of years, the Time Devourer STILL had yet to fully mature.

If that were the case, Belthasar's plan's sense of urgency is strange. Furthermore, unless Belthasar never travelled into the past, he would have looped the universe several times - Crono and Co. also perform such acts during the endings where they still use the Epoch.  That would be millions upon millions of years.... if not billions.

No matter how confident, would you go through with a plan that brought the universe eternities closer to destruction?

Well wait, what if the DBT is on a perpendicular axis instead?  I believe, at that point, because of a lack of a reference point between the two axes (unless you want to invoke Time Error Error), the TD would appear complete upon Lavos's descent into the DBT and would appear on the normal timeline at all points simultaneously.  So it cannot be a perpendicular axis.  And with a parallel axis, like above, it would take eternities for him to mature. 

[Thought]

Aahhh, the Wheel of Time!

Sorry, I had sudden flashbacks to Robert Jordan's works and dissertations and clothing and hair styles.

Anywho, to the theory at hand:

Branching Ring seems to work, though I'm not sure of any inherent benefits over a linear branching timeline either.

For the branching gates and wormholes, first to note, they don't behave quite the same way as wormholes. A wormholes can create time travel, but not in the method we see in game. However, lapping time as you describe (that is, only moving forward) would seem to work with the majority of what we know. However, this is where I have to start disagreeing with you:

but the problem is that when Crono goes back to 600AD, the original time ring branches off (creating a new time ring with Crono existing in 600AD), the original time ring is left unharmed except for Crono who is missing and will loop that way forever.

That means time is unchangable and static. Crono and Co aren't changing time, they are just creating new dimensions in which the past worked differently. Which means they are actually propogating Lavos, putting him in numberous new dimensions, only so that they can live in one without him.

This also has the problem of conservation of matter/energy. Crono leaves one time ring and moves to another, essentially destorying/removing matter and energy from that first time ring. Though as you described it, matter/energy wouldn't be created in the new time ring.

The Time Ring Theory (TRT) is very nice in that it does away with TTI and TB problems, as Chrono Eric noted. But it contradicts the theme of the game and it violates real-world principles.

Then of course there is the problem Eske pointed out; under TRT the TD would have had a very slow maturity rate, longer than the lifespan of the universe.

[killercactus]

That assumes though that the TD matures over time.  We're not even sure of that, are we?

[Thought]

Well it has to mature over some temporal dimension. That is a result of it not being complete in 1020 but potentially becoming complete. Any change from one point to another requires a progression of time.

However, this could be maturity on an Time Error scale, rather than a Normal Time scale.

[killercactus]

True.  Or, it could just be immature because it needs to bond with Serge to be completed.  If Serge is required to complete it, no amount of time would suffice.

[chrono eric]

However, this could be maturity on an Time Error scale, rather than a Normal Time scale.

This is how I always interpreted it, and if this is the case then cyclic time really isn't a problem for the TD's maturation. But it wouldn't seem that way, because why would Belthesar be so concerned about the imminent maturation of the TD then? As Eske said, if cyclic time were the case, the TD would take countless cycles of the universe to truly mature.

That is, unless the missing piece is Serge as killercactus pointed out. But that in itself is troubling since Serge existed (and died) in the timeline before Belthesar officially intervened. If Serge was necessary for the final maturation of the TD, then it would make more sense to just leave him dead. The only explanation is that Belthasar was chiefly concerned with saving Schala and saving the universe was just a plus on the side.

[killercactus]

However, this could be maturity on an Time Error scale, rather than a Normal Time scale.

This is how I always interpreted it, and if this is the case then cyclic time really isn't a problem for the TD's maturation. But it wouldn't seem that way, because why would Belthesar be so concerned about the imminent maturation of the TD then? As Eske said, if cyclic time were the case, the TD would take countless cycles of the universe to truly mature.

That is, unless the missing piece is Serge as killercactus pointed out. But that in itself is troubling since Serge existed (and died) in the timeline before Belthesar officially intervened. If Serge was necessary for the final maturation of the TD, then it would make more sense to just leave him dead. The only explanation is that Belthasar was chiefly concerned with saving Schala and saving the universe was just a plus on the side.

Exactly, and I actaully believe it.  Belthasar displays some big-time arrogance throughout the series.  I don't think doing something like that is beyond him.  Schala is from his time, and was probably close to him.  Just seems to me like something he would do.

[Thought]

Meh, I  dislike that for artistic reasons; it really makes Belthasar out to be the villain of the game, but he isn't defeated, leaving the plot unresolved.