Where did the Mystics come from?

[utunnels]

That give me a feeling that there are so many points of view they want to tell us in Chronopolis, but those things are just not well organized well.
When we see something unclear, we tend to look for quotations in the script. How dispointing it will be if we find something inconsistent...
And the Ultimania...I still doubt how many things are still the original ideas instead of later patched version.

[FouCapitan]

Well the whole Lavos caused human evolution to speed up thing seemed to me to just be a theory brought up by characters in the game, a theory that I found many holes in even during my first time playing it.

The thing with theories is, they're not always correct.  So a theory in a fictional world has every bit the chance of being mistaken as a theory in real life does.

That said, since it isn't presented as an absolute fact within the game, we can't treat it as an absolute fact in our speculations about the history of the Chronoverse.



On a personal level I feel the plot point of Lavos' influence over mankind was to further hammer in the point of humans being bad for the planet, that formed one of the more irritating undertones prevalent throughout the game's storyline.  Damn hippies...

[V_Translanka]

Was the FF in RD a splinter from Lavos as well? I forget...

[utunnels]

Perhaps, Magil said it was from a large stone which fell from the heaven long times ago.

[FouCapitan]

The Frozen Flame is more than just an object. It's not of this world.
It descended from the heavens long ago, part of a huge meteorite.
Once, there lived a people who sought to harness its power, hoping to tap into
their yet unknown potential. And so, it became a treasure of great importance
and dreams.
However, whether a gift which bestows power is actually a blessing or a curse,
is another question altogether.
Since the birth of humanity, at least one entire race has fallen because of it.
These people once built a great thriving metropolis with its power, but now,
all knowledge of this era has been completely lost within the sands of time.

The "huge meteorite" he refers to is obviously Lavos.

[utunnels]

It is strange Magil didn't speak Lavos' name, unless he didn't know the meteorite was Lavos.
And in CT there's no such thing called Frozen Flame, but they said Zeal use Mammon Machine to contact with Lavos, which was made from dream stone.

Perhaps Frozen Flame = Lavos' shell splinter was not settled by then.

[Thought]

What tools? I wouldn't use the weapons you get from the chief, because those seem more like gaming devices. Also I need to object to this discussion because I see no relevance in it taking place. If you have a point to make, make it. Do not give me the fluff.

Alright, I will list various instances of tools or items that clearly imply tool use.

Those clubs they carry around for one. Those drums that get played when Ayla throws the feast. The clearly sewn bikini-like clothing that the women wear, Ayla's fancy tailored outfit, the northern village chief's robe and headpeice, the necklaces that the dummers wear, etc. Carved bowls. Alcohol brewing equipment. Hut making. Pottery. Rope making. Fire spits. Wood working. Totem carving. What might be fence making. And though it isn't exactly tool using, the fact that they knew how to ride Dactyls implies the beginnings of animal domestication.

But entire purpose of this is that humans evolved. Because we do not see a physical or intellectual development, the magical development is used to explain such evolution. However, you are supposing an unlikely evolutionary pattern (Lavos influence = develop magic in humans, non-lavos influence = develop magic in a totally separate species).

Our World=/=Chrono World

There are things obviously based on things and events from our world, but the development of technology is one of the more apparent things that does not follow our own technological timeline.

Quite true. However, technological development of any kind implies a physiological development of a similar kind. Which is to say, if they're crafting swords, they're intellectually on par with sword users.

Was the FF in RD a splinter from Lavos as well? I forget...

Not yet. It was still purely dreamstone and dreamstone was at that point still a stone. The FF, especially as displayed in CC, displays powers that the dreamstone never had (indeed, if the Dreamstone is the Frozen Flame, then the Masamune and pendant are the frozen flame as well).

That whole statement in Chrono Trigger really bothered me.  There really is no evidence presented that Lavos caused mankind to evolve.

Depends on what you call evidence:

   That one was known as '"Lavos!"'
   The great crimson flame......
   
   Wielding absolute power,
   Lavos buried the dinosaurs -
   the kings of the land -
   in the space of a night.

   However, the timid '"apes"'
   who had lived hidden in
   the forests...
   
   ...came into contact with
   the crimsom flame
   that fell from the sky,
   and evolved into '"humans."'

   In the eyes of the Dragons,
   we humans are the foes...
   
   A brain that has developed abnormally
   to 3 times the original size in the
   span of 3 million years...

   We humans have evolved at an
   enormous rate because of our
   contact with Lavos's flame...

However, as a counter point, the game really uses a bad definition of evolution, generally using it more in the "develop to a higher state" sense than the more accurate "change to best fit the environment" sense.

[placidchap]

Influenced might be a better word.

[chrono eric]

Yes, but Ayla's Tribe were in the beginnings of the bronze age they had to have been alot more evolved than the 65 Million BC humans of our timeline, which means that The Flame really couldn't have done alot intellect wise for humanity.

Wait...what? There were no humans alive in 65 M BC in our timeline. It depends on what you classify as a human, but the earliest fossil evidence of hominids in our timeline points to an origin between 5-10 M years ago.

But in the Chronoverse...yes, you are right. The contradictions between what we see in CT and what is stated in Chronopolis in CC are pretty huge.

[ryu planeswalker]

That only makes the situation worse you know, if humanity was more or less fully evolved 50 Million years earlier than we did, shouldn't the tech shown in 1999 been discovered long before Zeal was even thought up?

[FouCapitan]

I guess technically you were right, as the ancestors of modern humans in the real world were probably nothing more than insectivorous shrew-like animals in 65 M BC.

Another laughable comparison between R/L and Chronoverse.

Lower mammals to humans in 65m years = normal evolution (R/L)
Less intelligent humanoids to modern R/L equivalent humanoids in 65m years = fast evolution. (CH)

[placidchap]

The technological process was farther along millions of years ago, as the kingdom of Zeal is proof. We only see Zeal in its final days.  The technology that allowed Zeal to be what it was when we saw it was most likely in the works for a long time before we see what we see.

[utunnels]

Yeah, really.
In RL, can you believe a castle buried 65000000 years can still be in its shape, like Giant's Clow ruin?
Or, those wine in Lost Sanctum can last 65000000, so does the residents, they've even kept their culture unchanged for 65000000 years...

[FouCapitan]

Yeah, really.
In RL, can you believe a castle buried 65000000 years can still be in its shape, like Giant's Clow ruin?
Or, those wine in Lost Sanctum can last 65000000, so does the residents, they've even kept their culture unchanged for 65000000 years...

Not even that, the furniture hasn't changed one bit.

The only thing noticable is one of them evolves into purple.

[utunnels]

Perhaps an aged one is purple, like the elder...
But the terrain can be changed easily in CT world, 600 A.D. world map and 1000 A.D. world map have big differences.