Where did the Mystics come from?

[ZealKnight]

Well let me ask you this. Do you think it's really impossible that vines can't grow and die over time in the same spot? More over, I think we can logically assume that Lavos never fell. The only problem is no Dragonians. I'm just assuming that either A)Dragonians have not evolved yet or B) A dimention without dragonian evolution. The interesting thing is the Mystics appear here before they do in the Lavos line.

[Thought]

Well let me ask you this. Do you think it's really impossible that vines can't grow and die over time in the same spot?

For 65,000,000+ years? In the shape of a vine ladder? When the vines were already cut and not just planted there? Yes.

The only problem is no Dragonians. I'm just assuming that either A)Dragonians have not evolved yet or B) A dimention without dragonian evolution.

If we are going to assume non-standard evolution for the Reptites, why not also for the humans? We have evidence that Mystics are humans, so why not assume here that humans just evolved very very quickly?

Also, there are more problems than just those two: at least once (and I think twice) the party joins a stone to itself to get a new item. That seems to defy the nature of time travel as we see it in the rest of the game.

Then there is the civilization that never changes (no mind its members never evolving). The village that never changes. The statues that appear in a location that the reptites never get access to until the party does and first sees that statues.

[Acacia Sgt]

For 65,000,000+ years? In the shape of a vine ladder? When the vines were already cut and not just planted there? Yes.

It could be that, with the vine in place, it becomes easier to... perhaps, replace the vine every now and then?

[ZealKnight]

Wait, what evidence is there that they are humans? All you posted was speculation.

[Thought]

Speculation insofar as I am extrapolating from given evidence, yes. That evidence itself comes from fairly simple grammatical analysis. We have a speaker referring to a group performing an activity. That speaker then says that the group ceased that activity. The speaker then adds an addendum to that statement giving an exception. Either Spekkio's reference to Mystics/Demons was a non sequitur (a possibility), or he was calling Demons Humans. I am not calling this definitive proof, just valid evidence.

[ZealKnight]

So in other words were right back where we started. I tend to take the Lost Sanctum as cannon. Not that it is the dragonian dimension, I'm pretty sure we know it's not.(considering that the reptites don't even know what a human is) I thought that there were no humans at all in this timeline and that the mystics are just separate.

However Thought, if the mystics are just humans that evolved with magic how come there really is no mention of it in Zeal. You would think that would be a major point of discussion. Or more importantly in Chronopolis where they studied a good amount of evolution. It just seems like too much dialogue is missing for that to be true. Most people just recognize that demons exist, and nothing more. They have some link to magic, but obviously if Lavos is not in the Lost Sanctum (which I think the compendium currently holds as true) then the Frozen Flame/Zeal is unrelated. Perhaps humans. Perhaps the sun stone. Perhaps humans just evolved with magic naturally. But all of these are wild goose chases. The only thing we know for certain is that Lavos/Zeal is not necessary.

[Thought]

Well it isn't that LS isn't canon but that no matter its status, it tells us two things: jack, and squat. Sure, Lavos/Zeal aren't necessary, but isn't the only reason that Lavos was necessary because its fall eliminated the reptites, opening up the way for humans to take over?

[Mr Bekkler]

So in other words were right back where we started. I tend to take the Lost Sanctum as cannon. Not that it is the dragonian dimension, I'm pretty sure we know it's not.(considering that the reptites don't even know what a human is) I thought that there were no humans at all in this timeline and that the mystics are just separate.

However Thought, if the mystics are just humans that evolved with magic how come there really is no mention of it in Zeal. You would think that would be a major point of discussion. Or more importantly in Chronopolis where they studied a good amount of evolution. It just seems like too much dialogue is missing for that to be true. Most people just recognize that demons exist, and nothing more. They have some link to magic, but obviously if Lavos is not in the Lost Sanctum (which I think the compendium currently holds as true) then the Frozen Flame/Zeal is unrelated. Perhaps humans. Perhaps the sun stone. Perhaps humans just evolved with magic naturally. But all of these are wild goose chases. The only thing we know for certain is that Lavos/Zeal is not necessary.

You don't even know that. What we know is the DS extra content adds more plot holes than it closes.

Evolution and corruption are not the same thing. Zeal fell into the water, with a bunch of people, magic, and technology, that we've seen mutate TWO Zeal family members. How far of a stretch is it that Zealean magic/technology would do the same to more people before the next explorable era, which is 12600 years later?(See: enough time)

And the Lost Sanctum is only visitable via gates in Prehistory and 600AD, but that in no way MEANS they take place in those times! Why does nobody get this? That's why it's a gate! You go in Bangor Dome and pop out at the End of Time, you don't think Bangor IS the End of Time, do you? No!

And creatures who are not Crono&co could have easily wandered in. It never says Mystics/Fiends evolved there. It said Monsters ARE there.

Lastly, claiming "the Compendium holds" something "as true" doesn't help your argument any more than saying "cause Zeality said so"

[Thought]

Hmm... I like that. The Lost Sanctum, though it is a dimension apart from the normal Chronoverse, might not be a dimension in the same sense but rather a sanctuary for temporal refugees. 65,000,000 BC and 600 AD are related insofar as in those times the fate of a race changes. For the Reptites, they go into decline. For the Mystics, they (if we defeat Ozzie) move towards being peaceful. The Sanctum itself, then, might be a location in which the fates of these would-have-been nations goes. Not the Darkness Beyond Time, persay, but something along those lines. The Mystics and Reptites are there not because they naturally exist there, but because they are lost in time.

[Iyellalot]

In 12000 BC, you can see monsters on Mt. Woe that heavily resemble the Mystics. It's probably a fair assumption that they are the ancestors of the mystics.

Where the monsters on Mt. Woe came from on the other hand, is a mystery.

[ZealKnight]

And the Lost Sanctum is only visitable via gates in Prehistory and 600AD, but that in no way MEANS they take place in those times! Why does nobody get this? That's why it's a gate! You go in Bangor Dome and pop out at the End of Time, you don't think Bangor IS the End of Time, do you? No!

Well, the the beach is cross is a gate too. It's possible that they don't take place at the same time as their gates connection, it's just another assumption as they are defiantly the same place with different times.

Lastly, claiming "the Compendium holds" something "as true" doesn't help your argument any more than saying "cause Zeality said so"

I wasn't going for that, but good job being an ass about it. I was just implying that it's possible that lavos could have fallen. Just an assumption we collectively have. Basically I'm not stupid for thinking that.

[xcalibur]

In 12000 BC, you can see monsters on Mt. Woe that heavily resemble the Mystics. It's probably a fair assumption that they are the ancestors of the mystics.

Where the monsters on Mt. Woe came from on the other hand, is a mystery.

there were also many Mystics in the Ocean Palace. and then there's Dalton's Golems.

The Mystic race clearly began in Antiquity. They might've been directly created by magical experimentation, or indirectly created. the use of powerful magic could've been a catalyst that caused the distant descendants of prehistoric animals to evolve, become sentient, and become magic-users. from there, they were employed by Zeal in a guardian role on the fringes of their society. And they clearly were fringe and not really accepted. the only non-human beings who were accepted by Zeal were the Nu and Dream Species.

[CelestialPhantasm]

Hm! The theory of the Mystics' origin in Zeal is something that could be handled in Bekkler's "Chrono Shift"-project...

Speculation insofar as I am extrapolating from given evidence, yes. That evidence itself comes from fairly simple grammatical analysis. We have a speaker referring to a group performing an activity. That speaker then says that the group ceased that activity. The speaker then adds an addendum to that statement giving an exception. Either Spekkio's reference to Mystics/Demons was a non sequitur (a possibility), or he was calling Demons Humans. I am not calling this definitive proof, just valid evidence.

What is the significance of the japanese word translated here as "people"? Perhaps with "people", only the plural of "person" is meant (since "persons" sounds odd in English). Therefore, Spekkio could merely have been speaking of all sentient beings.

So he could have been saying:

During the era of this kingdom, all people (humans + mystics) could use magic.

Afterwards, humans could no longer use magic, but the mystics still could.

[EgyLynx]

Mystics /Fiends...  i dont know where...
but, i cant think lavos kill all Reptites... althoug i think that when they lost that leader, they slow lost it to humans...

But... Humans stop Reptites, Humans stop fiends and then Humans stop Lavos...

fiends-><-repites?

[Satoh]

So he could have been saying:

During the era of this kingdom, all people (humans + mystics) could use magic.

Afterwards, humans could no longer use magic, but the mystics still could.

This is an interesting comment, and it makes me think that perhaps Spekkio has a broader definition of 'people' than we generally assume. The Mystics in Medina are obviously 'people' in that they are intelligent civilized beings, yet most of the characters in the game do not consider them people, at least when referencing them, due to their past behavior as dangerous monstrous beings during the war. This is at least partly just to identify that the NPCs aren't talking about dangerous humans, but specifically the mystics... however, it also makes it appear that the human view of 'people' only applies to human beings.

Back to the subject of 'where did they come from,' I think its possible that they are the intelligent evolution of existing creatures, even going as far back as Zeal, they may have been intelligent. Most enemies fail to address the player before a fight, so if we assume they can't simply because they don't, then the majority of existing mystics in the game are quite feral. Mt. Woe (I believe) contains Feral Imps and Imp Aces (as I recall). They already seemed to be domesticating animals to do their work, which to me implies that they are at least somewhat intelligent by this point.

I think it's reasonable that in the 64,988,000 years between Ioka and Zeal, the creatures of the world (Though not all) may have become intelligent. I also believe that the mystics are not a race of people at all, but rather many races of people, each coming from a different evolutionary lineage, and each, throughout the years, being shunned, hunted, assaulted by humans, to the point where they eventually became a united front against them.

Lavos' goal is to collect DNA with advanced or useful properties... I think it's possible that it could thus influence the development of lesser creatures to become intelligent and eventually be yet more fodder for harvest.

I suppose in a timeline my thoughts flow this way:
65m BC: No mystics, primitive animal life, Lavos arrives. Lavos sees not enough potential in humans alone for cultivation, and reptites are dying out due to Lavos' arrival.
65m BC: Lavos begins seeding the DNA of multiple creatures in a symbiotic plan to advance them, so it can be advanced using them.
65m-12k BC: Multiple life forms begin using tools, communicating, becoming intelligent... how fast this happens is unknown, nor is the level of this intelligence at any point known. It may be that 'mystic-like' intelligent life started appearing only months after Lavos came... or it could be millennia or eons... Humanity, in possession of the Red Stone (generic, not a singular stone), continues to advance at an accelerated rate.
12k BC: Humanity is highly advanced, with thanks to the Red Stone and likely the Flame. Mystic-like intelligent beings exist, but may not be as intelligent as the land dwelling humans, or may be moreso, no information is available.
12k BC: Zeal falls. Humanity is set back, but continues to advance, now in unison. Mystic-like beings may take control of any Zeal remains, thus becoming exposed to magic if they had not already been.
...
600-1000 AD: Mystics are the current end-point of the developing intelligent beings thusfar.
1999 AD: Mystics are nearly if not entirely obliterated by Lavos, along with most of humanity.
2300 AD: Surviving mystics, if there are any, are few and have possibly mutated, losing the ability for magic, or with other effects. Krawlie may be a mystic-descendant, as may the 'fish-men.'

Theory on Mystic's magical ability:
Nu. Nu are prevalent in Zeal, and once Zeal falls, we see that some Zealeans survive, so it's possible many Nu do as well. Nu being a part of Zeal's magical culture, may be the influence on the mystic-like beings that eventually allows them to learn magic.