The Dreamline (new direction?!)

[Eske]

This theory is still not complete.  This is the second major edit - the purpose of reediting this time is to increase clarity while keeping explanations to the point, so forgive me if keypoints do not flow well into eachother.

The Dreamline

The Dreamline is the view of the adventure from the perspective of the Entity. It is the Entity's subjective interpretation of events while "revisiting" and "predicting" them in an effort to save itself from it's eventual death due to Lavos in 1999AD.

It works like a timeline, but in order of memories
recalled/predictions made, rather than chronological order:

Normal timeline :

------------------------------------------------------------------
65milBC   12000BC   600AD   1000AD   1999AD   2300AD          EoT

Dreamline (segment) :

------------------------------------------------------------------
1000AD 600AD 1000AD 2300AD EoT 1000AD EoT 600AD EoT ...

As such, causality is treated very differently, for example:

   "Person A" conceives "Child B" at Time X.
Time travellers from X+1000 disrupt this by convincing A,    currently at Time X-10, to come back with   them.  It turns out that one of the time travellers is a descendant of A. They hang around for a bit and then A returns to her own time at X-9.

Causality on a normal timeline would make this troublesome. If Time X never produces B, how can the time traveller from X+1000 still exist? 

TTI seems like it would save the time traveller from vanishing, but we see in the game that Marle vanishes when Queen Leene remains kidnapped, so obviously TTI cannot function this way. 

Normal Timeline:

---P1--P3--------------------------P2---------------
 X-10 X-9            X             X+1000

Here we have the 3 important positions "A" holds.  A reaches P2 before A can experience Time X, and is therefore meeting with her descendant before it is even sure that he can ever be born. Marle is not spared, so why should he be spared?

The Dreamline avoids all of these nasty little complications, watch:

Dreamline:

P1-------P2-----P3
X-10  X+1000   X-9                   

Now take the above and "unfold" it over the normal, chronological timeline:

Normal Timeline (after dream) :

  P1   P3                               P2
(----)(--)------------------------(--)------
 X-10  X-9            X           X+1000

This is (or was) the Ayla Paradox. Now let's look at the Marle Paradox, where again she has ancestor-descendant issues, yet we have the opposite result this time.

Marle Paradox:

Time X is the point of no return. The period in which it is no longer possible for Frog to save Leene on his own.  After Chrono witnesses Marle vanish, he and Lucca aid Frog, creating a new Time X and helping the Entity recall Marle once again.

Normal Timeline:


-------P2-------P3----------------------------P1-P4---------
       600AD  Time X      601AD              1000AD

Dreamline:

--P1-------P2-------P3--------P4------------------------------------
1000AD   600AD   Time X   1000AD


Normal Timeline (after dream) :

  P2   P3                                       P1       P4
(---------)-----------------------------(---)----(---)
 600AD TX                               1000AD    ""

Notice the key difference from the Ayla example, Time X is within the scope of the Dreamline.  So let's go over this:

Critical Moment Time X within Dreamline, Marle's ancestral chain is broken, so the Entity forgets her where she stands, to Crono's dismay.

Critical Moment Time X outside Dreamline, Marle's ancestral chain is preserved, so the Entity recalls her, despite the apparent break in physical causality.


I will edit this post again soon to re-include the "Crono, Clone and the Time Egg"  and "Doan Paradox" sections.

[chrono eric]

Bout' time Eske  . I was wondering if you were ever going to get around to posting this. Anywho, here is the ending quote from Schala in Chrono Cross and my own interpretation of it at the bottom:

   There is no such thing as
   a useless life-form...
   No such thing as
   a pawn!

   Every single thing
   in the whole of nature
   is perhaps just dreaming
   a dream of '"life"'...
   
   All of them are also
   perhaps nothing more than
   a dream dreamt by the planet
   before it is born.

   Oh, but yes...
   Eventually all dreams
   will return to Zurvan...
   to the sea of dreams...

I interpreted Schala's words to be talking about the nature of consciousness in the Chronoverse. By "all of them are nothing more than a dream dreamt by the planet" and the quote immediately before that, I took to mean that the subjective awareness of all conscious life forms comes from the consciousness of the Planet (the Entity). Or in other words, that the higher consciousness of the Entity is experiencing itself subjectively through the consciousness of lower life-forms. Additionally, the ultimate source of all consciousness, including that of the Entity, is confirmed here to be Zurvan, the Sea of Dreams.

The concept that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, or that the universe itself is subjectively aware through conscious beings is a well known philosophical concept. It is not unlikely that this concept was incorporated into the Chrono story, given the above quote. Here is another relevant quote from Cross in Chronopolis:

   Everything is purely a
   problem of possibilities,
   and the world is only
   stabilized by the viewpoint
   of the one who observes it.

This is no doubt referencing one interpretation of quantum mechanics, and it is relevant in the sense that it seems to state that the universe which is composed of nothing but possibilities is stabilized by a conscious observer. So when the likely meanings of the two quotes that I have listed are taken together, they strongly imply that:

The consciousness of all lifeforms on the planet are a part of the higher consciousness of the planet (the Entity), and that it is the consciousness of these lifeforms that stabilizes the timeline. If this is a true statement about the Chronoverse, then if the Entity were to literally remember events in it's past subjectively, and alter those events somehow so that the observations of conscious observers at each time period were different - it implies that the universe would be stabilized in a different manner and the timeline would change.

What implications this has for the possible mechanics of time travel in the Chronoverse - well, I'll leave that up to you Eske. But I believe this theory holds great merit because it appears to be supported by the script in the games. Awesome  . What are your thoughts on what I've just said?

[Eske]

Well, I am not very familiar with Chrono Cross (I did play and beat it years ago though) so I'm glad that there was some support for the Dreamline in that game.

then if the Entity were to literally remember events in it's past subjectively, and alter those events somehow so that the observations of conscious observers at each time period were different - it implies that the universe would be stabilized in a different manner and the timeline would change.
 

Yep, and I stress again that I believe this change only happens once.  One dream, one ending, one Lavos in the DBT.

Your interpretation of Schala's words is pleasing because I was getting a little flustered by all of the technical concepts we've all created to explain time travel in the game.  I feel as though at some point we had forgotten to really look at the game and analyze its themes.

Dreams played such a large part in Chrono Trigger, that I felt it was not unreasonable to say that the whole adventure was a dream of the the planet.

Right now, I am very pleased that the "Time X" concept is the only real technical aspect to it - the rest is all about the Entity.

But anyway, I'm glad you approve, though I know some people will feel that I've given the Entity too much power over the story.   

[chrono eric]

Another thing that is interesting here is that we do not need to completely revamp our understanding of the mechanics of time travel in the Chronoverse to accept this idea. Traditional ideas about physical time travel still apply here, and predict that the Entity's "memories" would be changed just fine. We don't need to adhere to some metaphysical "dreamline". In fact, both seem to predict equally well events in the games. The one thing Dreamline seems to explain better is the Lavos in the DBT situation

[Eske]

Well, the Dreamline only represents the perspective, its not an actual "thing".  The Dreamline is simply the adventure itself and the "dream" of the Entity, it isn't like Time Error, which, while also representing the perspective of Chrono and Co. during their adventures, is supposed to be a real axis of time.

I tried to interpret the adventure as a dream or recollection of the Entity for two reasons:

1)  Though it gives the Entity more power over the adventure, it returns this power to thematic elements rather than strict physical properties.

2)  Scope:  using events within the Dreamline as the only enabler of change to the timeline allows for the highlighted (and not highlighted) events in the game to actually work together  -  instead of producing blatantly inconsistent results.

Example:  Ayla Paradox

Normal Timeline:

----------*--X-------------------------------................--------------------------
65mil BC                                                                1000AD

* represents when Ayla left the timeline
X represents when Ayla conceived her child

Looking a normal time travel, Marle should be missing from 1000AD because of Ayla's absence from 65million BC.     X comes after *  and Ayla does not return until she returns - Marle should not be in 1000AD or, at the very least (if TTI is involved), the Guardia line should not exist.
Now I have read that Ayla probably contributes so little to the genes that make up Marle that it probably wouldn't matter, but this is just my alternative to that.

Dreamline:

-------------@-------------&----------------------------------
65mil BC     1000 AD       65mil BC

@  Ayla leaves 65mil BC to go to 1000AD.  Guardia looks A-ok.
After spending some time there she returns to 65mil BC at point &
Moments afterwards, the gates close and the Dreamline is unfolded.

Guardia wasn't gone, hmm.  Alright lets unfold this dreamline onto the normal timeline...


---(--@)---------(&--)------X-------.......................------(@--------&)
 65mil BC                                                         1000AD

(----)  represents the scope of the Dreamline.

@ and & represent arrival/departure like above.

X represents the critical memory: Ayla conceives ____

As long as Ayla does not die, is not about to die, or is not rendered unable to have children, the Guardia line should exist.

The above example has been added to the original post

EDIT: Fixed a small error

[chrono eric]

As long as Ayla does not die, is not about to die, or is not rendered unable to have children, the Guardia line should exist.

Interesting, so please correct me if I am interpreting this wrong, but are you equating this with the concept of PTime - that if the probability of Ayla dying rises above 50%, then Guardia will not exist? So can an alternative way to word what you have said simply be that "even though Ayla has left the timeline for 65 M years, the probability that she will one day return to the past has stabilized the future so that there is no Guardia paradox?" or am I completely wrong on that?

EDIT: Whhooooops

[Eske]

As long as Ayla does not die, is not about to die, or is not rendered unable to have children, the Guardia line should exist.

Interesting, so please correct me if I am interpreting this wrong, but are you equating this with the concept of PTime - that if the probability of Ayla dying drops below 50%, then Guardia will not exist? So can an alternative way to word what you have said simply be that "even though Ayla has left the timeline for 65 M years, the probability that she will one day return to the past has stabilized the future so that there is no Guardia paradox?" or am I completely wrong on that?

I think it is similar.  My only problem with PTime is:  how could the probability of Ayla's return to the past be calculated?

In the case of the Dreamline, the only concern is:  can the critical event at Time X occur in light of the current circumstances?

In the Ayla example,  Time X has yet to arrive, Ayla is still alive and able to have children.

When I said "about to die", I didn't mean like Queen Leene's situation, I meant a mortal wound.  I was giving room for when the Entity "forgets" because I can't really know the precise Time X, just its general timeframe.

But in general, it isn't about the probability of her return, it is whether or not Time X has occurred within the scope of the Dreamline.

Looking at the game this way, I still cannot think of any holes or exceptions - but if someone can find some, that would be great - I'd like to create a formal version of the theory soon, assuming it isn't bunk.

[chrono eric]

Even with PTime, I think the Ayla paradox is still significant since there is only set present state of the Universe - a state that either had Ayla living and having a child in the past or a state that did not. Only Dreamline seemingly offers a way around this.

As for finding exceptions to it...if there are any, it will take awhile because it is like completely revamping our way of thinking. And like I said, it doesn't invalidate the other theories like TTI/TB and Time Error, because both theories predict the same things. They are like equally effective alternate ways to explain something. TTI/TB would be from the perspective of the individuals time travelling or someone outside of the timeline looking in. Dreamline would be from the perspective of the higher consciousness of the Entity.

Thus, rather than looking for exceptions to Dreamline theory, perhaps we could look for more exceptions to TTI/TB and see if Dreamline effectively explains them away?

[Eske]

Looking at the Articles, it's upsetting to see that the only paradox that Dreamline fails to solve is the Doan Paradox.

Under Dreamline, 1999AD is considered Time X for the future.  Crono changes the nature of the Entity's memory, therefore 2300AD should be bright and sunny.

The only solution for the Doan paradox is to take the statement "1000AD is the Present" in a literal sense.
That way, even with the catastrophe in 1999AD averted, it still has to actually happen to change the future.

That would make 2300AD the "possible future".   This is fine, but what does it mean for Dreamline?

I refuse to let it die this easily, especially when this appears to be the only obstacle - so I will make a simple change:

This timeline represents the Entity's memories or dreams while dying in the distant future.

will become:

"This timeline represents the Entity's memories and dreams with dying"

This makes 1000AD a sort of central reference point.   Changes made beyond even the scope of the Entity will change nothing until the changes literally occur on a timeline.  Why? And how can I be sure?   We see that Doan's 2300AD is unchanged even after we defeat Lavos (otherwise that Doan could have never arrived), so 1999AD and consequently 2300AD cannot be a part of the memories of the Entity.

Perhaps this can answer the age old question of why Lavos chose to rise in 1999:

The planet had died.

Again, how can I be sure?   There would be a huge inconsistency from the Entity's perspective, with or without the Dreamline theory.   Think about it,  the planet experiences a change in 1999AD that eliminates a ruined future, yet a citizen of such a future is still able to time travel from there. 
Imagine if you were the planet,  can you fathom how such a transition is possible?  To have your future spared and yet somehow suffer as if it had yet to be spared?

The first post will be rewritten a bit to include these revelations:

The game's statement that the present is 1000AD will be taken literally for this theory.
The Entity is dying around 1000AD.
The Entity dies 1999AD.
1999 and 2300AD are events that the Entity has forseen or perceived or is dreaming about - they have yet to occur.
Because of such visions, the Entity opts to save itself via the dream.

[chrono eric]

So wait, what does this mean for the mechanics of time travel for Crono and co. when they travel to 2300 AD? The Dreamline theory explains travel to the past, but to the future?

[Eske]

So wait, what does this mean for the mechanics of time travel for Crono and co. when they travel to 2300 AD? The Dreamline theory explains travel to the past, but to the future?

Going by my above statement that 1000AD is the literal present, I guess I have will have to pull from thematic Free Will. 

It is not just Crono, Marle, and Lucca who make the choice to defeat Lavos after they discover the apocalypse,  the planet itself exercises the choice to avoid "the inevitable".

Recall that we are never informed of an "absolute present" in either game - we are only told that 1000AD is the present.  Whether it is the true present or simply the present relative to Crono is unknown.

So, 1999AD and 2300AD may represent possible futures.  In that case, the memory rule would not apply. See below:

Furthermore, changes are only based upon the recollective ability of the Entity.  Therefore, changes made beyond the scope of the Dreamline, to include changes beyond the Entity's perception of its own Present will have no effect on the timeline.

To my knowledge, efforts in the past can only change 3 events in the future:

1) Save Fritz in 1000AD and the diary appears in the sewers.
2) Place the sun stone in the past and it appears in the future.
3) Kill Lavos and the bright future takes place.

Notice that the 3rd one is the only one that apparently doesn't immediately manifest itself.
The question is:  what is the difference between the first two changes and the last?

The answer is that the first two take place at or before 1000AD, either affecting the absolute present or changing the past.  The third one presumably takes place in 1999AD, a point in time that has yet to occur.

Despite the Entity's powers, I doubt that it can "will" the future to be a certain way, it only presumes or dreams it to be so.
Therefore, my understanding is that an event has to actually happen in the real timeline before it is takes effect.

Until Crono appears in 1999AD to defeat Lavos, 2300AD will apparently remain unchanged.

^ I believe this works unless the Compendium can really prove that Lavos was defeated in 12000BC.

So can the Entity read its own future?  Well, if Lavos can know of and mimic the boss "Guardian" from 2300AD, why can't the Entity peer into the future as well?

As for the actual mechanics of time travel in the future - to my knowledge the Dreamline does not interfere with TTI/TB, its more of an aid to explain anomalies.  It frames the adventure to help understand why the rules seem to be blatantly violated.  So with future time travel, just use TTI/TB and we will get the same results we've always had.   Unless something in the Dreamline prevents it, Crono will always appear in 1999AD to slay Lavos.  As we see in the game, no such disturbance of the Dreamline occurs to create that result. 

 

[stenir]

This way, there is not a countless amount of Lavos clones in the DBT, just one.

From our understanding, there wouldn't be a "countless amount of Lavos clones in the DBT" to begin with. Lavos exists in a pocket dimension, safe from any alterations to the timeline, because he doesn't fit in as a part of the timeline itself (in the way Crono and company do). You could remove the access to the pocket dimension, but that would not end Lavos' lifeline.

For example, you could travel back in time and divert Lavos' trajectory, but as he is in his pocket dimension, he gains TTI (through the same way Serge gets it, I was surmise, from dimension hopping), quite possibly to start draining the energy from the planet. So you can't do anything of that nature. However, this also goes to explaining why you have to go into the pocket dimension in order to defeat Lavos. Lavos could only be defeated in his dimension, where his timeline is a set path. Which is kind of smart on his part, when you think about it.

The Compendium holds that time travel events are protected by TTI.  Therefore, Crono's appearance at Death Peak is assured, regardless of changes made to the past.  The game, however, does not seem to share this view.  We are told that we need an identical clone, which we then use to replace Crono.  Why?  Because the Grandfather Paradox does exist in Chrono Trigger.  If the Entity cannot recall that Crono was killed, it will not recall the sequence of movements by the group made with intention to save Crono.  The group will then be deleted and replaced by new counterparts, reflecting the future of Dreamline reacting to the new changes to 12000BC.    Recall that this did not happen to Crono and Lucca when Marle vanished.  This is because Crono and Lucca were at the Point of Change in 600AD that controlled events onwards, while the group described above was making a change to 12000BC that could have made incompatible changes to 2300AD.

The Compendium does not suggest, at least to my understanding, that time travel events themselves are protected by TTI. In the non-ruined future, you wouldn't see a ghastly image of Crono, Marle, and Lucca running through the sewers. It's a different timeline and those actions didn't take place in the non-ruined future. TTI basically ensures the memory of the events still exists. As long as Crono remembers watching the video of the Day of Lavos, he's able to stop Lavos. Although, it might be cool to have seen the non-ruined future and see Crono and company running around as ghastly images, only visible to those who can see through the timeline (i.e., Crono watching his "past" self learn of the Day of Lavos).

The Compendium has also suggested that the Grandfather Paradox does not exist, otherwise the entire game would be the biggest paradox ever heard of. Crono's appearance at Death Peak is not assured, as it requires, according to Gaspar, a certain amount of effort to be put into retrieving Crono for him to actually be retrieved. If it were an assured event, then all the rest of the group would have to do is just sit there and wait for him to show up. But this goes back to the Free Will theory, that inaction produces no action, and that until the group actually performs an action, the resulting chain of events does not yet occur. Until Marle and whoever the player picks to join her travel into the pocket dimension during that frozen second, and until they decide and will themselves to exchange Crono and the clone, Crono is not assured to appear at Death Peak.

Perhaps this lends credence to not necessarily a single event being the point of timeline alteration, but rather a checklist. Like, in order for Crono to appear once again, the following must occur: 1) The Time Egg is used at Death Peak; 2) A clone of Crono must be present; 3) The clone must be shifted into Crono's position and Crono be removed from where he was at; and 4) Crono must be removed from the pocket dimension. So it's a chain of events, and if all four of those do not take place, then the theoretical #5) Crono appears at Death Peak, cannot occur.

Marle Paradox

   Leene is supposed to be saved at Time X, this is what the Entity recalls.  Leene is, however, not saved at Time X - ultimately forcing her doom.  We see, in game, that Yakra is moments away from killing Queen Leene in the Cathedral when we find them.  It was, perhaps, not possible for Frog to save the Queen alone in time.  Though Crono and Lucca intervene to make saving the Queen possible, this is only after the ultimate result has been witnessed: Marle ceases to exist.
   
   When the three of them save Queen Leene, they create a new Time X within the Dreamline where Marle's family line is restored, therefore Marle's previous actions are recalled by the Entity, placing her exactly where she was first forgotten.

While I would initially reference my theory that a 50%-50% of something happening (50% of the time Leene is saved, 50% of the time she is killed, in this example) allows a timeline to stay in a sort of Limbo (which if you read my latest post on my discussion on whether the universe was split or duplicated in Chrono Cross, I state the theory could explain both Belthasar's statement that the 50-50 probability of Serge's life or death and the reasoning for the universe splitting and Another World not being shifted to the DBT due to the uncertainty), perhaps a modified version could be applied here. Notice how I stated that 50% of the time Leene is saved/killed, not Marle. Say whichever has the higher percentage of probability is what occurs. The moment one of the two options breaks 50%, it becomes the event in the current timeline.

Since Lucca arrived pretty much right after Marle "disappeared", we can safely assume that Lucca had gained TTI by this time. So, we have Crono and Lucca both with TTI. Let's say they decide to just sit around. Well, then Frog is left to go after Yakra by himself. Continuing on, let's assume that Frog makes his way through the cathedral until he reaches Yakra's room. Any idea of who is going to win in a Frog vs. Yakra match? Probably Yakra. Okay, so probability here is that while Frog's intervention delayed the Queen's death, it didn't prevent it. Then we can add in Crono and Lucca, and boom, the chances rise. For an example (and don't quote me on these being actual percentages, since we don't know), here's some example values to illustrate.

Remember, the Percentage theory (gotta think of a better name for it) states that until a choice rises about 50%, the timeline is in Limbo.

1. Timeline at start of game: Leene is kidnapped, but soldiers find her and defeat Yakra. Leene's survival rate: 100%. Leene survives and Marle exists.

2. Timeline after Marle time-travels: Leene is kidnapped. Marle has not yet chosen to interact with the citizens of the Kingdom of Guardia in 600, so the soldiers still find Leene and defeat Yakra. Leene's survival rate: 100%. Leene survives and Marle exists.

3. Timeline after Marle time-travels and Crono time-travels: Leene is kidnapped. Marle may not have chosen to interact with the citizens of the Kingdom of Guardia yet (this would allow for Lucca to travel back still), so the soldiers still find Leene and defeat Yakra. Leene's survival rate: 100%. Leene survives and Marle exists.

4. Timeline after all three have time traveled: Leene is kidnapped. While the soldiers are out looking for Marle in different groups, one small contingent finds Marle while the rest are looking in the Cathedral for Leene. When word is heard that "Leene" (Marle) is found, the search is called off moments before finding Yakra and the real queen. Crono is just now approaching the castle, and Lucca has appeared in the past, thereby giving her the TTI she needs to still be there.

At this point, we get to a slight discussion of how the Probability Theory (there, better name) takes effect. We have three possible outcomes at this point: a) Yakra kills the Queen; b) Yakra fights Frog and kills the Queen; c) Yakra fights Frog, Crono, and Lucca, and doesn't kill the Queen. At this point, until any action is made, there is a 66% chance (since until an action is made all probable outcomes have the same probability) that the Queen will die. So, the Queen dies since that probability is a 2 in 3 chance she'll die. However, becomes the timeline doesn't know which of the two timelines where she dies to utilize (where Yakra kills the Queen and then the one where Yakra fights Frog and then kills the Queen), the timeline is still in Limbo, which unfortunately has the side effect of removing Marle from the "timeline" (partially because she would no longer exist, but also because the timeline is in such a state of limbo that she's not shunted to the DBT).

5. The final timeline: Leene is kidnapped. While the soldiers are out looking for Marle in different groups, one small contingent finds Marle while the rest are looking in the Cathedral for Leene. When word is heard that "Leene" (Marle) is found, the search is called off moments before finding Yakra and the real queen. Crono watches as Marle is shunted into a state of Timeline Limbo due to the Probability Theory, and he and Lucca go off and help Frog defeat Yakra. Upon defeating Yakra, he can no longer kill Leene, and the one remaining timeline, where Leene is saved, takes precedence and the timeline realigns itself with the events of that outcome (which now has a 100% chance of happening). Leene's survival is now at 100% once more, and Leene is alive and Marle is returned from her Timeline Limbo state, as the probability she exists in this timeline is 100% again.

[Thought]

From our understanding, there wouldn't be a "countless amount of Lavos clones in the DBT" to begin with. Lavos exists in a pocket dimension, safe from any alterations to the timeline, because he doesn't fit in as a part of the timeline itself (in the way Crono and company do). You could remove the access to the pocket dimension, but that would not end Lavos' lifeline.

Well it isn't a sure thing that Lavos was in a pocket dimension.

[chrono eric]

The Compendium does not suggest, at least to my understanding, that time travel events themselves are protected by TTI. In the non-ruined future, you wouldn't see a ghastly image of Crono, Marle, and Lucca running through the sewers.

You misunderstood him - by "time travel events" being preserved, he meant the literal event of travelling through time. The wormhole would appear and Crono and co. would exit it. After that, it is up to them to do whatever they want. In the past, they would either enter a portal and cease to exist or disappear due to Time Bastard and cease to exist. These events are preserved.

Well it isn't a sure thing that Lavos was in a pocket dimension.

I'm gonna cash in my chips on this one and say that it is a sure thing that Lavos doesn't exist in a pocket dimension.

[stenir]

Maybe Lavos just hides out inside a gate itself. Or, better yet, maybe Lavos IS the gates. That would also go a long way to explaining why the gates shut down after Lavos is defeated.