Edited techs?

[Mauron]

Nice job!

[Chrono'99]

  That's awesome, FaustWolf! 

I'll let Jsondag decide ultimately since gameplay and battle difficulty are two areas I never really touched at all during development (I'd probably break the balance), but here are my two cents:

*Venom Mist should definitely be in, but if possible I think it should replace Water instead of Slurp Cut, otherwise Glenn wouldn't have enough physical techs for a warrior.
*Nirvana X looks fantastic in itself and it can probably be in, but visually isn't this basically Triple Kick?

*All of Ayla's new techs should definitely be in. They're all fantastic! Pangea looks almost too advanced for a pre-magic humain, but then again Azala did use that move along with telekinesis. It would be awesome if Earth Song could display music notes somehow (like in Gato's attack), as it would tie it thematically to Singing Mountain, Leah's ending lines ("Ayla! New song of land!!") and the Chrono Cross element, but it's probably a pain to code.

*Soul Reaver seems kind of less useful than Black Hole. I'm a bit concerned that all of Magus' custom techs (except Steal) have bright or VERY bright color effects, as opposed to his original CT techs which had a more consistently black color scheme (apart from the first 3, but they were still not that bright).

[FaustWolf]

Yeah, Magus has enough new techs already. I thought it would be neat for someone to have an HP stealing tech, but maybe that's more of a novelty than anything at this point.

Sure, we can do *Venom Mist instead of water if others agree with that move. I'd bump up the spell's strength a bit in that case and maybe even make it a single-target spell, unless it's okay for Frog to be on par with Magus in having a medium-damage area affect spell. Again, if it affects Bubble Hit or other double techs that might use Water's code, we just copy Water code from a fresh ROM, insert it into unused space, and repoint. Only thing I worry about is running out of unused space within the bank used for player tech code. json, did you use any unused tech code space already? In a fresh ROM, we have 0xEDC20 ~ 0xEDFFF unused.

What made replacing Slurp Cut so attractive was that Slurp Cut has so much tech code that you can stuff multiple new techs into it. Thus, *Venom Mist and Nirvana X are both sitting in what was once Slurp Cut, with plenty of room to spare for additional techs.

Yeah, I used Triple Kick's code for Nirvana X but changed the animation routines so that whole animations would play while Frog was charging the enemy as opposed to static frames like Ayla uses for her first two kicks. I think we have control over the angle at which Frog charges the enemy if you want to make it resemble Cyrus' skill more.

I'll take a look at the tech list to see if we can get music notes surrounding Ayla for "Earth Song." There should be room because Kiss had a ton of object code. I'm honestly surprised that Earth Song didn't affect Slurp Kiss.

As far as Pangaea is concerned, I figure that if Ayla could summon a large dinosaur, a rock would also be perfectly doable. I guess I envisioned it not as Ayla using Magic, but rather that she's learned to channel natural powers from the planet via tribal song and dance.

EDIT: Oh, I just realized we can probably create a new physical tech to replace Slurp Cut entirely if you guys are turned off by Frog's slurping as much as I am. What I'm thinking of doing is something where Frog just rushes at the enemy with a critical upper, basically going to the enemy as opposed to bringing the enemy to him. Then Nirvana X would look like a normal attack, the replacement attack for Slurp Cut, and Leap Slash all rolled into one.

Also, it's been pointed out to me that there's a song called "Berserker" with really raunchy lyrics, so I'm thinking about changing the name of that tech if you guys want it in CE. Do you guys want it in (it comes highly recommended)? Any suggestions?

[Agent 12]

Amazing work i have tons of ?'s / notes?:

a) Venom Mist should definitely replace water (if it's not shared) so that frog stays as a physical character.
b) Did you repoint frog's tech to triple kicK or just copy paste it in?
c) Does Frog Flare still work?
d) If you put the data in slurp cut you can still have other techs point to the "objects" of those with the tech editor.  And not have slurp cut use them....it's kind of tricky. So you'd basically make the objects you want in slurp cuts code, then afer you have them the way you want do view=> objects and remove those, then in the other tech do view objects to add them back in.....this is risky though because if you resave slurp cut it could potentially overwrite the data.
e) I actually like magus new tech....it almost makes him overpowered since he has protect/shell, strong magic, and now a way to recover HP. But well....he's magus.  It might be kind of useless that late in the game since by then most people will have somoene that can recover everyones HP but my vote would be to keep it in.
f) What happened to double charm?
g) using unused space should be a last resort.

again amazing work.

--JP

[FaustWolf]

Hah, I just realized that Frog's *Heal is dead as a result of the patches. More investigative work to do. 

a.) There's a consensus building that *Venom Mist should replace *Water. Do you feel that *Venom Mist should have the same strength as *Water, or if it does have the same strength, should it be restricted to one enemy or is it okay if *Venom Mist affects an area?

b.) Nirvana X is its own code set (had to alter the animation routines to make it look different from Triple Kick), but didn't fit inside Frog Squash. That's why I decided to stuff it into Slurp Cut's code. Again, Nirvana X could easily be placed in unused space (I've worked with unused tech space before and I'm pretty confident in this method).

c.) Frog Flare works like a freaking charm, but it's probably because I didn't touch Frog Squash's code as mentioned above.

e.) What I'd really like to do with Soul Reaver is keep the instant death functionality but implement the 5% HP drain as a "consolation prize" for when the tech's main function fails. I might explore that through the tech properties but leave the original Black Hole Layer 3 effect in light of 99's concern about Magus techs seeming un-Magus-like. Currently the gold shield enemies in the Black Omen die automatically, but I think that may actually be a gameplay secret from what I can make of the CT:DS Ultimania guide, and not a successful implementation of my goal.

f.) Twin Charm steals an enemy's item still but doesn't have any heart thingies moving around the screen, nor do Ayla and Marle go through their animations. Placing Berserker over Charm is probably the culprit.

g.) As I see it now, we have two quick-and-dirty options for getting the techs to work perfectly: First option is to put the new tech code in unused space (haha) while leaving the existing tech code untouched. However, we might not have enough unused space for all the new techs, so I'm more inclined to replace Frog's "Slurp Cut" with a much more simple physical tech and stuffing *all* the new tech code into the freed space. Slurp Cut uses so much room it's just amazing. Currently I've got *Venom Mist and Nirvana X sitting in there, with several hundred bytes of space that might not be utilized. We could probably fit most of Ayla's new techs in there too, for example. Of course, I'll have to check for instances of the addresses of Slurp Cut's objects and see if they're referred to further on in the ROM.


Basically let me know if you guys want all the techs in the video (I'll do some more work with Soul Reaver to make it more Magus-like), and I'll work out how to make that happen now that I've had some quality time with tech code.

I can't really think of any new techs for Lucca and Marle (who already have a new tech each), nor can I think of any for Crono and Robo. I'll certainly take suggestions though.

If you guys are willing to sacrifice Slurp Cut for a much more simple tech code-wise (but not necessarily coolness-wise!), I'll take suggestions for that too. Currently I'm thinking about basically having Frog do his part of X-Strike solo. I'd like to have it be something that ignores enemy defense, but I'm not sure how to implement that, nor have I been able to recreate the effect of dropping an enemy's HP by 1/2. However, it's possible I could make it a "Lower HP = Higher Damage" desperation attack, which would be cool for Frog to have early on considering the challenges in the Mystic Cave.

[Agent 12]

Hah, I just realized that Frog's *Heal is dead as a result of the patches. More investigative work to do.

haha yea......i realized quickly that this is pretty fickle stuff were working with...my first initial steal patch (replaicng ice 2), made black hole and dark mist not work.

I defintely think we should replace water, and have it do a little less damage than water currently does, and keep the multiple enemies effect (it'd seem dumb if it was one enemy from how it looks).

I definitely don't want to use unused space....IIRC theres quite a few things that use local pointers with tech code (object pointers being the first that comes to mind as well as the most important), it would make it a pain in the ass to edit later if something went wrong, and we'd have to work to make sure that everyone who touches the rom with TF knows about the unused space so that TF doesn't overwrite it, and we'd have to remember the unused space that we are using later when we want to add music.  I don't know how much free space CE currently has but I do know that we have quite a bit of dialogue...probably more than CT orig has and that saving some locations is starting to take awhile (which makes me think TF may be having a hard time finding free space large enough to save the location in).

However I dont mind stuffing everything in slurp cut, I remember slurp having a ton of space when I was looking stuff up (at first I thought i was doing something wrong cause it was so big haha), there's an object for each little ball of his tongue.. I can't think of any other dual/rtriple tech that uses anything in slurp cut.   I love the desparation attack idea, it should work really well with CE. and the one person X strike == super easy to implement. 

That being said no Heal + no twin charm is a pretty big deal.  We have to solve those problems before we do anything.


--JP

[Agent 12]

Oh yea about the triple kick thing since you aren't really utilizing triple kick anymore can't you swap pointers of triple kick to have it point to frog squash, and vice versa and just edit triple kick to be nirvana strike? I believe it's like...the first byte of one of the tech properties?

Only problem with that is frog flare and that one triple tech that uses triple kick might be killed (might being the key word ) My guess is that pangea will fit in frog sqush (I'm guessing it's just a layer 3 trick) and well obviously nirvana strike will fit in triple kick.

so basically:

1) change triple kick to nirvana strike
2) change frog squash to pangea
3) swap pointers


--JP

[FaustWolf]

Oh, Triple Kick's still in -- I have both Triple Kick and Nirvana X working separately. Triple Kick's used in several triple techs IIRC, so I think we ought to keep it in Ayla's tech set.

The problems should be solved by making a new physical tech to replace Slurp Cut and stuffing everything into the freed space. I think most of the new Ayla techs can stay where they are, but Berserker definitely has to be inserted into the Slurp Cut section of the ROM so that Twin Charm can work with the original Charm code. X Strike uses no Slurp Cut code, thankfully!

I should have something for you guys to see by Thursday or Friday. Now that I've got raw working tech code, shifting locations and repointering in a fresh ROM will be a cinch. Looking at Nirvana X from different angles, I feel it's visually distinct enough from Triple Kick to be believable. Casual players will probably just be wowed by the fact that it's a three-strike tech named after Cyrus' only known sword skill.

[Agent 12]

Looking at Nirvana X from different angles, I feel it's visually distinct enough from Triple Kick to be believable. Casual players will probably just be wowed by the fact that it's a three-strike tech named after Cyrus' only known sword skill.

I agree a compendium member will spot it right away but we are a rare breed Oh man I didn't see beserker before (this hotels internet is spotty at best) that's a perfect idea! What did it replace? OHHH it replaced charm....now I see...Well we really just have to find out where the heart is stored then and fix that to fix double charm? Do you remember if the heart is in cham or kiss? ...or both

Hm....ok I can try to help you out later if you have problems but like you said I'm pretty sure you can pretty easily squeeze it all into slurp cuts space and all of our problems should be solved.

So final product should be:

Frog:
Some desparation attack (low HP = high damage), half of an x strike visually. Replaces slurp cut, in slurp cut.
Venom Mist: purple blob,area tech, weaker than water by a bit, replaces water, in water if it fits AND if we double check double triple techs....hopefully we don't have to check enemies too??
Nirvana Strike, 3 times hit, replaces frog squash, in slurp cut

Ayla:
Earth Song, heal all replaces kiss, in slurp cut IF this is where the heart object was....otherwise replace kiss if you want?
Beserker, beserk, shield, shell, replaces charm, in slur cut IF this is where the heart object is...otherwise replace charm if you want
Pangea: Summon rock, replace triple kick, in slurp cut

Magus:
Soul Reaver, replace black hole.....animation is up to you guys but I do like the idea of magus being able to recover HP


--JP

[Chrono'99]

I can't really think of any new techs for Lucca and Marle (who already have a new tech each), nor can I think of any for Crono and Robo. I'll certainly take suggestions though.

Robo seems a bit less interesting than the others techwise (and it doesn't help that he's not much developed in the story). Perhaps we could give him GreenMemory from Oswego del Fuego's old list? It would be like the accessory GreenDream or the triple tech Line Line but on a single ally. I would even suggest making it target all three allies like Life Line (and consume a lot of MP), but I don't know if it would be too broken. Then again, it would clearly make Robo more interesting.

[FaustWolf]

JP, we definitely shouldn't have to worry about checking enemy techs because enemy tech and player tech code are stored in separate banks (if I'm using the term "banks" properly). In any case, they can't seem to point at each other's code, although they do pull from the same graphics packs for spell effects.

Oh, GreenMemory is an awesome idea. To avoid brokenness, we can probably make it a single target tech. It's probably also possible to replace Area Bomb with some kind of nuclear tech where he opens up and that "Stop" spell animation used elsewhere in the ROM pops out of him. Thirdly, I was considering giving Robo some kind of powerful physical tech that slams the enemy back, kind of like the Henches do to the player characters. However, I worry that would become problematic when facing stationary enemies -- we wouldn't want Robo to slam back King Zeal's flames, for example.

Oh, are there Rocks in Crimson Echoes to enable certain triple techs, like OmegaFlare DarkEternal? I think we could definitely alter the Layer 3 spell effects to change DarkEternal into Dreamless, but on the other hand, if there are no rocks accessible in CE, we might as well use that space for new techs.

[Agent 12]

* All of the rocks can be found during the Zeal Trip at night.
* Definitely don't do the hench style move for Robo, i hate that henches can do that it makes battle planning a pain.
* I think you used bank correctly
* I agree with single target make it a bunch of MP though...like 35-40.
* Hm...i'm not sure which one is least likely to be replicated....robo tackle I feel like is used alot....i'd say try it on area bomb/uzzi punch.  I always felt like area bomb was kind of dumb so i'd lean more towards that one.

--JP

[FaustWolf]

Okay, now that we know how to manipulate tech elements finally, I've done some thinking on Robo's tech set and I believe we can do some really really cool things provided we can find the space. I might just be able to stuff them into Slurp Cut too, but I'm also placing "Rocket Punch" under consideration since it's another hefty multi-object tech. See what you guys think of the following tech set:

1. Thorhammer: Robo does his downward-smash critical frame and lightning strikes a foe (it's like an electric discharge from his fist). I'd only implement this if I can edit his Fire Punch(?) double tech with Lucca into "ThermoThump" by making that act on Robo's movements for Thorhammer. It's also possible that Rocket Punch and Fire Punch don't share code since they're fairly different; gotta check on that.

2. Cure Beam

3. Reactor: Robo opens up and the Layer 3 "nuclear" effect shoots out of him. There's a "stop" attack the Aliens in the Black Omen have that uses the effect I'm talking about. We could make this Shadow damage centered on Robo himself to replace Laser Spin. Laser spin always looked kind of ridiculous to me, but maybe I'm alone on that.

4. Line Crash: Like Robo Tackle, only it targets a line of foes instead of a single foe.

5. Heal Beam

6. Uzzi Punch

7. GreenMemory: Sets an ally up for revival as previously suggested.

8. Incinerator: There's a really great Layer 3 spell effect that was used in Masked Queen Zeal's "Dark Gear" attack in Chrono Trigger, and it'd be fairly convincing as a fire attack.


However, Incinerator might look like it's competing with *Flare, in which case I was thinking about making Thorhammer Robo's 8th tech, a really powerful Lightning element attack on a single foe. But maybe people would be pissed that we took away Robo's "Shock" to begin with.

I'll take other suggestions as well. The Guardian's Delta Wave thingy could be put to use, and we could even give Robo a "Flame Pulse" line attack like Lavos' "Flame Battle." The problem I'm seeing with Robo's elemental techs is that they're likely to "compete" with every other characters' attacks. One thing I haven't seen is a single-target shadow tech, which might be interesting for him to have at a low level instead of Laser Spin.

On the other hand, it might be neat to have Robo be the "universal element" character this time around, similar to how Magus was in CT. In CE, Magus can't produce Fire or Ice elemental attacks any more.

Reminds me -- I can't think of anything for a Robo Ice or Water tech.

[FaustWolf]

Ugh, I'm erasing the post I had here yesterday because the attachment was so flawed it could have passed as an April Fools joke. New Frog, Ayla, and Robo techs, perfectly working and in a way that doesn't screw up any other techs. Finally.

I still want to test every single tech again just to make sure, so once again this is just a backup of the new techs and *not* something you'll want to apply to CE yet. I'll make another video to illustrate them.

In the meantime, I'm worried about editing tech descriptions because they're all Huffman compressed, and there's bound to be length issues. json, what did you do for Magus' new tech descriptions? Did you use unused space at all?

[Agent 12]

I edited them with TF?  As you've probably figured out by now I don't use unused space haha.

--JP