Dimension Split, or Dimension Duplication

[chrono eric]

Or the "There are as many worlds as there are potentialities."  line from Eclipse Magus tells us that the "dimension split" is really just a link created between two already existing dimensions; one with Serge alive and one with Serge dead.  Which would also look like an H, but the - between the | | is just a link between two already existing dimensions.

This would make things simple, but unfortunately the Cross script clearly states that the dimensions did in fact split and they were in fact reunified at the end.

[Thought]

Perhaps what Belthasar means was: Serge's survival differed the home world's future from another world.
But that's only my thought, it seems it is even offcially confirmed that Serge's survival was the reason why the dimension was divided.

Hmm... unless we say that splitting the dimensions and dividing them are two seperate things.

That is, in 12000/2400 events happen causing the dimensions to split. There is Home world and Another World. They are perfectly the same, however, and Chronopolis is purposely keeping them that way since it is a single city that came from two different futures. Who knows what would happen to it if one of those futures were changed (like what happens in Home World)?

Though separate dimensions, for all intents and purposes they are the same. Indeed, from a sci-fi standpoint, it is pretty standard for things to coexist in the same place but be out of sync with each other, and so be separate.

Serge's life and death situation, however, is what caused the two to diverge. Before one couldn't travel between the two before what was there to travel to? How could one even tell if one was in Home or Another? But afterwards, the two became separate things capable of different futures.

[chrono eric]

Cross states that the Dead Sea appeared and disappeared because there was a probability that the future would be destroyed and a probability that Serge's actions would save it, respectively. I'm beginning to think that the types of time travel mechanics that we have been discussing here recently may shed some light on this and validate it, as it would be a shame to disgregard the script of the game which is usually considered to be canon. Since the main reason that the "Y" shape of the split is so appealing is that it predicts that the Dead Sea would not form until 1010 AD, explaining why it would in an "H" shape split may settle this once and for all.

[Thought]

Not disregarding, but differentiating. The script muddles time and dimensional travel, it might well muddle dimensional distinctions as well.

Look at it this way; the dimension is like an eukaryotic cell. 12000/2400 saw the start of mitosis, but Serge and 1010 saw the completion of it.

But yeah, the Y-split is looking more attractive every day. I need to dig up BROJ's old comments and see why it was rejected before.

[placidchap]

This would make things simple, but unfortunately the Cross script clearly states that the dimensions did in fact split and they were in fact reunified at the end.

... as it would be a shame to disgregard the script of the game which is usually considered to be canon.

Grandfather Paradox seems to have been disregarded, even though it was explicitly stated in the script.  I'm sure some jibber jabber could be thought up to "overlook" the Cross script.

[Thought]

Actually, no, the Grandfather paradox was never stated in game. It was implied by a biased source. We merely need apply a basic analytical approach.

The first question one should ask regarding a source is: Is the source capable of relaying valid information?

The second question isn't here relevant, but to be thorough: Is the source willing to relay valid information?

While Lucca implies the Grandfather Paradox, she is also not in a state to objectively know the truth of the situation. She is not an expert on time travel (at least, not until after CT). Thus, her comments have to be taken with a grain of salt.

[placidchap]

and at the same time, there is nothing disproving her original assessment...or is there?   I not a reliable source for valid info, considering I could have sworn she said GF paradox...

[Thought]

Double checked and nope, "Grandfather Paradox" was never said.

And no, there is nothing that firmly disproves her original assessment either. But the reason it is often taken as a bit of a conundrum is that it contradicts a major theme of the games: that one must take action in order to change the world.

Also, if the Grandfather Paradox were possible, it should have come up a lot more times in the game.

[killercactus]

To jump back to the Y vs. H discussion...

I wonder why we never see Miguel in the Sea of Eden.  If the dimensions split like a Y in 1010, should he not be in both the Dead Sea and the Sea of Eden?

It seems like Schala's storm blows them to Chronopolis in both dimensions (Serge is dead in Another World, and people remember that he drowned in 1010), but then why isn't Miguel there?  Do we just not run into him?

[Acacia Sgt]

That's easy. Home Miguel died when the Dead Sea was created. And Another Miguel was sent there by FATE to guard that dimension's Frozen Flame.

[killercactus]

I guess that's possible, though I don't remember anything in-game stating that's what happened.

Why does Miguel even need to be there in Chronopolis in the first place?  FATE seems like a quite capable guardian - it's almost as if it knew what was going to happen and kept Miguel behind.

[Acacia Sgt]

Go with logic. Do you expect that Miguel could survive the Dead Sea's appearance, especially being where it will appear? Chronopolis didn't.

[killercactus]

Go with logic. Do you expect that Miguel could survive the Dead Sea's appearance, especially being where it will appear? Chronopolis didn't.

It seems like he did though, based on what he says:

Man:
   I'm Miguel.
   A friend of your father.
   According to the time outside,
   it's been about 14 years since
   the night of the storm...

Miguel:
   Yes... I've been here
   in this very place...
   For 14 years...
   It wasn't like this
   when I got here, though...
   An incident that occurred
   10 years ago, transformed
   it into the Dead Sea.

Also, notice that he refers to "the time outside".  He could've very well been there longer than 14 years (say, 24 years?), or he doesn't even realize how time flows there - he just sees it from the outside.

[Acacia Sgt]

But only Miguel? Other than him, there is no other thing that also survived, not even FATE.

[killercactus]

The Frozen Flame survived - that's the whole reason that Miguel fights the party, and why FATE destroys the Dead Sea.