Dimension Split, or Dimension Duplication

[chrono eric]

Yeah - I feel like I keep going back to each thread and posting the same response.

I think we have to assume that the poet was instructed by FATE after 1010, but before Kid goes back in time.  Because in Home World in the game, she doesn't seem to have gotten the instruction.

That's actually a pretty good theory. I'll support that.

[killercactus]

That's easy. Home Miguel died when the Dead Sea was created. And Another Miguel was sent there by FATE to guard that dimension's Frozen Flame.

Other way around. I am fairly sure that Kato said in an interview that FATE killed Miguel in another world...

Here we go:

Question: What could be the reason that Miguel was stuck in the Dead Sea? And, were there two of him in existence?

Answer: 14 years ago when he entered the Sea of Eden, he was bewitched. By the knowledge of the future, by the powers of FATE. Perhaps he was overwhelmed in the sea of information, perhaps he became one with Chronopolis. When the world separated into two, of course, there were two of him. The one who was in Chronopolis, was eliminated by FATE, I'm afraid.

As taken from this interview: http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Ultimania_Interview.html

OK - so now we know the Sea was created in 1010, and that Another World's Miguel never crossed the dimensions.  That quote also seems to imply a Y dimensional split, because Kato seems to be implying that there weren't two of Miguel until after the Dead Sea appeared.  I suppose the computer quote that says "FATE has always been observing the two parallel dimensions" means always since 1010.

Also, I'm still a little confused about Miguel.  If Chronopolis really is in a time bubble and is functioning basically on Time Error, Miguel should remember 14 years of Chronopolis (1006 - 1020) and 10 years of Dead Sea (1010 to 1020 after Kid changes the past), but he doesn't.  Of course, he does mention "the time outside" in the previous paragraph - he could be referring to that, but it doesn't seem like it when the script is read.  Unless (!), maybe what happens is, after 1010 AD (before the split), FATE kills Miguel, as it does in Another World.  Then, when Kid changes the past, Miguel is again alive and FATE, instead of killing him, binds him there as a watchman with much difficulty.  It must be extremely difficult to cross dimensions, and then make someone exist in a place where basically nothing exists.  In that case, Miguel would only remember 14 years and Chronopolis / Dead Sea could still be in a time bubble.

So then, I'm back to why Serge's survival destroys Home World.  My theory about Chronopolis being affected in 12000 BC seems bunk.  I guess I'm back to the "Serge being the final piece of the puzzle for the TD and Belthasar is just an a-hole" theory, or Serge's Arbiter status stops the Records of FATE working in Home World, and someone from El Nido (poet girl or someone similar) screws everything up on the mainland.

[chrono eric]

Wait, I'm confused - why would Miguel remember 10 years of Chronopolis? He entered Chronopolis in 1006 AD, and the Dead Sea was created in 1010 AD. That means he would have remembered 4 years of Chronopolis and 10 of the Dead Sea, right? If not, then why not?

[killercactus]

Originally, Miguel would have spent 14 years in Chronopolis.  1006 - 1020, because Kid time travels from 1020 to 1010 to save Serge, and the Dead Sea isn't created until that happens.  If Chronopolis is in a time bubble (thus, not subject to Kid's time travel), Miguel would remember the original 10 years before Kid went back, plus the 10 years that pass in Home World up to 1020 when Cross plays out.

However, Miguel seems to have no recollection of the original 1010-1020 span.  This would probably be because, in the original 1010, FATE killed him, just as it does in Another World.  However, in the new 1010 (in Home World), the Dead Sea appears and FATE spares Miguel, since it now needs a guardian of the Frozen Flame.  That's why Miguel remembers only 14 years instead of 24 (in theory).

[Thought]

Ah, but this Miguel would seemingly be a Time Bastard then.

[killercactus]

Ah, but this Miguel would seemingly be a Time Bastard then.

Now I'm confused - why would Home World Miguel be a Time Bastard?  He has not Time Traveled (except maybe when he entered Chronopolis in 1006, but Kid didn't go back to a time before that) nor has he Dimensionally Traveled.  He just seemingly happens to get a reprieve from death in Home World because of Kid's travel.

[Thought]

Yes, Chronopolis is confusing.

Talking strictly from a current Compendium theorum standpoint:

1) Entering Chronopolis is tantamount to time travel. This is because the city itself is encased in a "time bubble" so that it is subject to changes to the past (hence how it becomes the dead sea) but individuals leaving it enter the appropriate time period (such as the Chronopoleans exiting it to colonize El Nido around 12,000 BC, or Serge and Squad exiting it to 1020AD). Likewise, individuals entering it essentially travel from their time or origin to 2400AD +.

2) By being in Chronopolis, Miguel essentially time traveled and therefor gained TTI.

3) The past was changed, so that the Miguel in Chronopolis is not the same one as before that change. He is a Time Bastard; the manifestation of Miguel, coming from an unchanged past but living in a changed present. This Miguel didn't live in Chronopolis until 1040 when Kid traveled back in time; that Miguel is who knows where. This Miguel is from the timeline in which Kid did travel back in time. He's a TB.

Not that I agree with TB or TTI, but as those are the currently accepted theories...

[killercactus]

OK, I think I see what you're saying.  But by that logic, isn't everyone on the planet (except Kid and Serge) a Time Bastard then?  Also, I'm not sure it really changes anything if he's a Time Bastard or not - his 14 years of recollection is still explained.

And yes, he should have TTI at 1006 AD.  If someone went back to 1005 and killed him, he should (according to Compendium theory) appear in Chronopolis in 1006 anyway thanks to TTI.  Though, no one goes back in time before that (so far), so his TTI should be pretty pointless.

[Thought]

Not everyone on the planet has time traveled, though.

TB only comes into play when one has TTI. And Miguel got TTI by traveling into Chronopolis (supposedly).

And yeah, his 14 years of recollection (4 in Chronopolis, 10 in dead sea) are explained, but the TB was to address the question of him remembering 14 years in Chronopolis as you suggested in your earlier post. The Miguel who'd remember 14 years of Chronopolis isn't the Miguel we see in game.

[chrono eric]

And yeah, his 14 years of recollection (4 in Chronopolis, 10 in dead sea) are explained, but the TB was to address the question of him remembering 14 years in Chronopolis as you suggested in your earlier post. The Miguel who'd remember 14 years of Chronopolis isn't the Miguel we see in game.

Thought beat me to a response, but I was going to say essentially the same thing. This is what was confusing me about what you were saying Killercactus, Miguel shouldn't remember the 14 years of Chronopolis because he wouldn't be the same Miguel. This is muddied by the probable fact that Chronopolis exists in a time bubble, and so it is not as easy to see as with examples of simple time travel, but I agree that Miguel would be a time bastard.

[killercactus]

OK - so let me get this straight:

Because Miguel (supposedly) time traveled from 1006 to 13006 by entering Chronopolis, he should appear in 13006 (due to TTI) in Chronopolis regardless of what Kid's travel back to 1010 does.  Therefore, when he gets to 13006, it will be the future of what Kid did, therefore he will be a Time Bastard and only remember a future that Kid changed.  And, consequently, a future that Serge and Wazuki changed when they left Chronopolis, traveling from 13006 back to 1006.  Am I now understanding?

If that is your guys' meaning - I'm not sure it applies with Chronopolis being in the bubble, but it sort of makes sense.

And, I think it's all moot anyway, since there is no version of Miguel that would remember 14 years of Chronopolis, since FATE kills him in 1010 or shortly thereafter.

EDIT:  If that is the case, though, wouldn't Serge and Wazuki appear in 13006 as well, and see the future of what Kid did?  What happened to the Time Bastard versions of them?  I assume they would disappear to the DBT at the time the original Serge and Wazuki left Chronopolis?

[Thought]

They'd appear, stay for a few minutes, then leave.

If the time bubble theory is correct, they'd all travel from 1006 to 14400ish. Serge gets healed, and he and Wazuki leave. Miguel stays behind and local time 14404ish Chronopolis becomes the Tower of Geddon.

So while there would be a TB Serge and Wazuki, they'd leave and disappear from existence.

Again, this all assumes TB and TTI are correct.

[killercactus]

OK - I forgot to add the 2400 years for original Chronopolis, so, they'd actually be in 15406 (2400+12000+1006) assuming the Time Bubble.  So, one more time for my mind that has to reconcile everything:

Miguel, Serge and Wazuki travel to Chronopolis in 1006-A. 

They enter, warping them to 15406-A (in theory). 

Serge touches the Flame, Wazuki gets corrupted and the two of them leave, traveling back to create 1006-B.  Miguel stays in 15406-A, and is sent to the DBT. 

In 1010-B, Wazuki kills Serge.

In 15406-B, Miguel, Wazuki and Serge appear in Chronopolis due to TTI.  Serge and Wazuki leave and are sent to the DBT immediately.

In 15410-B, FATE kills Miguel.

In 1020-B, Kid travels back to 1010-C, and attempts to save Serge.  The dimensions split, and everything that "already happened" in 15406-B through 15410-B goes to the DBT.

In Another World, timeline C is exactly the same as timeline B, except it includes Kid's travel which does nothing.  Wazuki still kills Serge. and FATE still kills Miguel.  Home World Serge then dimensionally travels there, called by Kid.

In Home World, 1010-C is different.  Wazuki fails to kill Serge, though still becomes Lynx.  Kid goes back to Another World. 

In 15406-C, Miguel, Wazuki and Serge appear in Chronopolis due to TTI.  Wazuki and Serge leave and are sent to the DBT.  Miguel stays in Chronopolis.

In 15410-C, Chronopolis becomes the Dead Sea.  Everything is destroyed/DBT'ed except the Frozen Flame, and FATE saves Miguel "with much difficulty", reaching over from Another World.  FATE does not kill Miguel, but instead binds him there to watch over the Flame.

Did I miss anything?

[chrono eric]

As far as I can tell that is right (assuming TTI and TB) and it is the way that I have always looked at it, which is why the whole Miguel remembering 14 years of Chronopolis thing threw me off.

Assuming TTI and TB are correct, I don't see any fault in that line of events.

[killercactus]

In Another World, timeline C is exactly the same as timeline B, except it includes Kid's travel which does nothing.  Wazuki still kills Serge. and FATE still kills Miguel.  Home World Serge then dimensionally travels there, called by Kid.

In Home World, 1010-C is different.  Wazuki fails to kill Serge, though still becomes Lynx.  Kid goes back to Another World. 

That does seem to be how it had to happen, and I think I've got the Miguel thing straight in my head now.  The bolded part above is the only other thing I'm held up on.  If we assume this, it means Kid basically traveled from Another World to Home World, and then back again.  I mean, Kid is Schala for all intents and purposes, but this just..... feels wrong to me.  I find this explanation much more appealing (until a hole is shot in it, as it invariably will be  ).

I don't think Serge's probability of life or death is what causes the dimensional split.  I do think that Serge had a 50/50 chance of life or death, just as Belthasar said, but he said an event happened that caused it.  I believe it was that event that split the dimensions, and that event was no more than Kid's time travel back to 1010.

I've read people debating and thinking about why this event split the dimensions instead of just creating a new timeline, and sending Another World to the DBT.  It didn't seem like an answer could be reached, but I think the answer is very simple.  Kid's time travel worked exactly like every other time travel in Trigger (maybe with the Marle Paradox exception), but we're just asking the wrong question. 

Instead of asking why Kid's time travel was unlike those in Trigger, maybe we should be asking why Trigger's time travel was unlike Kid's.  Why didn't we see a dimensional split everytime Crono and Co. traveled?  Maybe the answer is that there was a dimensional split, but since no one had the power to traverse them, everyone involved remained ignorant of it.  "There are as many worlds as there are potentialities."

I guess what I'm theorizing is simply this - every time travel splits a dimension in two:  One dimension where the travel occured, and one where it didn't.  Simple as that.  The dimension in which the time travel does not occur might be sent to the DBT, but it remains a functional dimension nonetheless.  The split occurs at the travelers destination point - in Cross' case, Opassa Beach at 1010 AD.  This becomes an entrance to the DBT, since that is where Another World has been sent, and could be why Serge could access the Time Devourer there.  Also, Serge can traverse the two dimensions because he is an Arbiter of the Frozen Flame - something capable of viewing and acting in both dimensions.

So, in Cross, in 1010 AD, Kid appears in Home World to save Serge because she time traveled.  In Another World, she doesn't appear, just as she didn't appear originally.  Another World is nothing more than the original time line, before Kid did a darn thing.

A couple evidences of this - one is that no one in Another World seems to remember a girl nobody knew appearing on the beach the day Serge died.  Lynx never says anything about killing her once already, for instance.  If that had happened, you'd think he'd have something to say about it.  Nobody in Arni Village remembers her, either.

Secondly, Kid is exactly as she should be in Another World, having seemingly no recollection of meeting Serge prior to Cape Howl.  She could be acting, but I don't buy it.  I'm sure she did call to him from Another World (on Belthasar's orders) but still didn't show any signs of recognition when she finally did meet him.

Lastly, my real basis for this theory.  Cross isn't the only dimensional split we hear about in the series.  There is another event that is known to split the dimensions in two - Lavos' landing.  Dinopolis existed in a dimension in which Lavos never fell, not in which Lavos fell and had no effect.  Therefore, Lavos' landing on Earth split the dimensions in two, and the dimension in which Crono & Co. existed was the resulting dimension - the Reptite dimension was sent to the DBT.  However, the fact that Dinopolis still existed to be pulled in proves that, even though that dimension may have been in the DBT, it still functioned.

It's also been debated that Lavos' landing was a form of time travel, since he was so technologically advanced.  I would support that theory, because his arrival split the dimensions, just as Kid's seemed to.