Dimension Split, or Dimension Duplication

[placidchap]

Data from Star Trek: TNG episode "Parallels".

"For any event there is an infinite number of possible outcomes. Our choices determine which outcome will follow. According to a theory, everything that can happen does happen in some other quantum reality.

Eclipse Magus

"There are as many worlds as there are potentialities."

Quite similar if you ask me...

with a fifty-fifty chance
   of life or death!
   This is when your future
   was split in twain.

Serge's death does create a "split" but not in the sense that it is unnatural and needs to be corrected [the feeling I get from the Compendium].  Every multiple solution instance creates as many splits as there are possibilities, in this case, 2.  What is unnatural and what does need to be fixed is the Angelus Errare that allows Serge to arrive in a dimension/universe where he is supposed to be dead. 

[chrono eric]

Well, it is stated in the script of Cross that every instance of time travel normally sends the future to the DBT. So, we can infer from this that the time travel events in Trigger did not cause dimensional splits every time.

What probably would cause a split, as placidchap pointed out, is any event that has exactly a 50/50 chance of happening. Cross seems to be inspired from real-world quantum mechanics in this regard, and it is stated by Belthesar that this is what caused the dimensions to split.

So, the dimensions probably split all the time. Anywhere in the universe where there is a 50/50 chance of something happening and the probability cannot be resolved - a dimensional split will occur. The split surrounding Serge's death was significant because he was the Arbiter of the Frozen Flame.

[placidchap]

Why does it have to be exactly 50/50 though?  What if you have 3, 4, 5 etc choices/options to choose from?  I think for Cross, the 50/50 is suitable because with Serge's "option", it really is 50/50; you either live or die.  But for other situations there may be a 33.333% chance of something happening..why can't it split in three [assuming they each lead to a decidedly different outcome]?

[KebreI]

When I first played through the game, I thought it was because it was 50/50, not an infinite choices that was the issue.

[Thought]

I generally take it that the focus wasn't on there being two choices, but that the probability of those choses were dead even. Such occurances are incredibly rare and since a single change to the future couldn't be determined, both became the future.

For example: Flip a coin and you have a 50/50 chance of getting heads, right? Well... meh, not really. Imperfections in the coin, how force is applied to it, wind, gravitational abnormalities, and a host of other factors will skew the results slightly.

This had perfect, statistically improbable results, sort of like definitively calculating pi.

[placidchap]

That is what I thought before Eclipse Magus came about.

There was no "option" between Serge living and dying (i.e. 100% chance of death), until Kid travelled back, allowing the option of living...now there are two possibilities; Serge lives or Serge dies...now it is 50/50...and since there are "as many worlds as there are potentialities" [and just as well put "everything that can happen does happen"] each option has to occur, splitting the dimension...

perhaps it was such a "perfect" split [the rare occurence of a true 50/50] that it caused the angelus errare at Opassa, the point of the split?

[Thought]

He never said that all these worlds exist at the same time in the normal universe.

[killercactus]

It would be one amazing coincidence indeed if Kid had an exactly 50/50 chance of saving Serge, and even moreso that Belthasar would be able to foresee / predict that.  It just seems astronomical.

However, if the dimensions split as a result of the time travel, 50/50 is easy.  Kid has a 100% chance of rescuing Serge if she goes back.  Either Kid time travels (100% Serge lives), or she doesn't (100% Serge dies).  50/50.

Also, if this isn't the case, how did Kid get from 1010 AD Home World to 1020 AD Another World?  Her amulet has the power to rewind time, but that's all that we know it can do.  We have no evidence that it can taker her forward in time, nor that she can use it to cross dimensions.  Belthasar is in Another World, so she doesn't have the Epoch.

There is also no evidence at all that Kid appeared in 1010 AD Another World and failed to save Serge.  Like I said above, Another World Kid doesn't seem to recognize Serge at all, and never reveals that she did later in the story (I think).

There's also the whole World 01 and 02 thing in the Chronopolis computer.  Why would World 01 be Home World?  That doesn't make any numerical sense, since Another World existed first.  But, if Home World was now the dimension not in the DBT (i.e. the "real" dimension), I could see why FATE would start referring to is as World 01 and Another World as 02.  The poet girl was instructed in World 01, presumably before Kid traveled back.  But, at that time, there was only 1 world, so of course it was 01.  World 01 is the "real" dimension - the only dimension not in the DBT.  In 1010, FATE loses contact with that world, but it can act out of the DBT in World 02 thanks to the Flame, and maybe the time bubble.

Sure, Cross says that the future of a discarded timeline goes to the DBT, but does that mean it can't also be an alternate dimension that exists in the DBT, just like the Reptite Timeline?

[chrono eric]

It would be one amazing coincidence indeed if Kid had an exactly 50/50 chance of saving Serge, and even moreso that Belthasar would be able to foresee / predict that.  It just seems astronomical.

However, if the dimensions split as a result of the time travel, 50/50 is easy.  Kid has a 100% chance of rescuing Serge if she goes back.  Either Kid time travels (100% Serge lives), or she doesn't (100% Serge dies).  50/50.

Well, I think Thoughts coin example illustrates perfectly what I meant and perfectly the concept that is likely implied by Cross. Usually I think Thought's analogies are over simplistic (sorry Thought!) but here it works perfectly. The 50/50 chance of Serge's survival happens after Kid travels back in time. At some moment after she appears in 1010 AD, there is an exact 50/50 chance that Serge will live or die and the dimensions split in two.

And it does seem astronomical, but somehow Belthesar knew it would happen. We know little about what prompted Kid to travel back in time in the first place, but Belthesar probably arranged for that too. He must have known something, or done something, that allowed the 50/50 chance to come into being.

Also, if this isn't the case, how did Kid get from 1010 AD Home World to 1020 AD Another World?  Her amulet has the power to rewind time, but that's all that we know it can do.  We have no evidence that it can taker her forward in time, nor that she can use it to cross dimensions.  Belthasar is in Another World, so she doesn't have the Epoch.

I think you are a little confused here. Kid doesn't time travel first, and then somehow forget Serge, and then meet Serge again later. It happened something like this:

Timeline 1: Kid travels in 1020 AD to 1010 AD and causes the 50/50 chance that Serge will live or die.

Timeline 1 splits into ---------Timeline Another: Serge dies in 1010 AD
                                          Timeline Home: Serge lives in 1010 AD

In 1020 AD, Serge meets Another Kid, but it is implied by the story that this is Kid before she has time travelled. So, to sum it up, the Kid that we know and love from the story didn't time travel to save Serge prior to the events of the game and then meet him again later.

There is also no evidence at all that Kid appeared in 1010 AD Another World and failed to save Serge.  Like I said above, Another World Kid doesn't seem to recognize Serge at all, and never reveals that she did later in the story (I think).

This ties in to what I said above - she doesn't recognize him because this is a version of Kid that hasn't time travelled yet.

There's also the whole World 01 and 02 thing in the Chronopolis computer.  Why would World 01 be Home World?  That doesn't make any numerical sense, since Another World existed first.  But, if Home World was now the dimension not in the DBT (i.e. the "real" dimension), I could see why FATE would start referring to is as World 01 and Another World as 02.  The poet girl was instructed in World 01, presumably before Kid traveled back.  But, at that time, there was only 1 world, so of course it was 01.  World 01 is the "real" dimension - the only dimension not in the DBT.  In 1010, FATE loses contact with that world, but it can act out of the DBT in World 02 thanks to the Flame, and maybe the time bubble.

Yes, Chronopolis is sketchy about all sorts of things. The whole World 01 and World 02 thing may have just been included for gameplay reasons, but the script in Chronopolis is all over the place. It's hard to determine what is canon and what isn't.

[killercactus]

I think you are a little confused here. Kid doesn't time travel first, and then somehow forget Serge, and then meet Serge again later. It happened something like this:

Timeline 1: Kid travels in 1020 AD to 1010 AD and causes the 50/50 chance that Serge will live or die.

Timeline 1 splits into ---------Timeline Another: Serge dies in 1010 AD
                                          Timeline Home: Serge lives in 1010 AD

In 1020 AD, Serge meets Another Kid, but it is implied by the story that this is Kid before she has time travelled. So, to sum it up, the Kid that we know and love from the story didn't time travel to save Serge prior to the events of the game and then meet him again later.

OK - granted I hadn't thought about that.  However, that still leaves some unanswered issues:

1) Where is the version of Kid that would've arrived in 1010 AD Another World, and be 10 years older at the time of Cross?  Do we just assume she was killed?  If so, wouldn't you think Lynx would mention something along the lines of "I already killed you once?"  Also, I don't believe, if she's still there, that she would just stay out of it once Serge crosses over.  Seems like an important plot point to just leave out.

2) If Kid does appear in 1010 AD in Another World because of her travel from 1020, then the version of her that Serge meets should disappear due to Time Bastard, right? (assuming that theory is correct, of course)  Are we just assuming here that the Cross story unfolds before the point in 1020 where Kid actually time traveled, so we never see her disappear?

EDIT:  Also, if the dimensions are split due an exact 50/50 probability, does that mean that, once Lavos fell, the humans had an exact 50/50 chance to defeat the Reptites?  Or that Lavos had an exact 50/50 chance of falling to Earth?

[chrono eric]

1) Where is the version of Kid that would've arrived in 1010 AD Another World, and be 10 years older at the time of Cross?  Do we just assume she was killed?  If so, wouldn't you think Lynx would mention something along the lines of "I already killed you once?"  Also, I don't believe, if she's still there, that she would just stay out of it once Serge crosses over.  Seems like an important plot point to just leave out.

Yes, this is an aspect of the story that Cross does not answer. The information about Kid time travelling wasn't given to you until the very, very end of the game - remember? It was incredibly rushed and haphazardly thrown in. We probably won't have an answer to this until the remake of Cross (which I have my money on it happening).

2) If Kid does appear in 1010 AD in Another World because of her travel from 1020, then the version of her that Serge meets should disappear due to Time Bastard, right? (assuming that theory is correct, of course)  Are we just assuming here that the Cross story unfolds before the point in 1020 where Kid actually time traveled, so we never see her disappear?

By our theory of Time Bastard, she should disappear, yes. But Eske and I had a long discussion in another thread about the possibility that events of time travel that occurred in one dimension but not the other would invalidate instances of TTI/TB after the dimensional reunification. So, in the Ideal Timeline, Kid would not be a Time Bastard and she would not disappear at the time of the original travel. That discussion can be found here (but I warn you, there is a lot of epic text to wade through):

http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,6571.30.html

[killercactus]

Yeah, I followed yours and Eske's discussion (which was very well thought out and written - good stuff) and agree that, in the Ideal Timeline, Kid might still hang around.  And as always in video games, you don't know how much time is passing in the game.  If the time that passes is less than a year, Kid is fine without disappearing.

And yes, I do remember that Kid's travel was very late and kind of thrown in at a weird spot.  I haven't played Cross in years, and really need to get a hold of it so that I can replay it.

I still like this theory though, and am going to look for some more evidence of dimensions being created with every time travel.  I wish we knew more about Lavos' landing and Dinopolis.

But Eske and I had a long discussion in another thread about the possibility that events of time travel that occurred in one dimension but not the other would invalidate instances of TTI/TB after the dimensional reunification. So, in the Ideal Timeline, Kid would not be a Time Bastard and she would not disappear at the time of the original travel.

Also, according to this, aren't you saying then that Kid traveled in Home World, but not Another World?  If we're saying Kid appeared before the split, technically her time travel would've occured in both dimensions, right?

[chrono eric]

Also, according to this, aren't you saying then that Kid traveled in Home World, but not Another World?  If we're saying Kid appeared before the split, technically her time travel would've occured in both dimensions, right?

Good question, and I think that is a very real possibility, but so is the following:

Take the familiar example of only one copy of Crono and co. saving the world from Lavos in a "Y" shaped dimensional split. They travel before the split point in 1010 AD in Another World and appear after the split point in 1999 AD in Another World. By this theory, no copy of them appears in 1999 AD in Home World because Home World is a branch off of Another World and both dimensions share the same past in the "Y" shape. The Kid example may be a reverse of this situation. Here we go:

Timeline 1 (pre-split, could be considered Another World): ------------------Kid appears in 1010 AD-------------Kid time travels at 1020 AD.

Her actions cause the dimensional split, and now you have this situation:


Timeline Another: ----------------------------------------------Kid appears in 1010 AD-----------------------------Kid time travels in 1020 AD
                                                                                                                         |
                                                                                                                         |
                                                                                                                         |
                                                                                             Timeline Home:      --------------------------Kid does not time travel in 1020AD


In this situation, you have one copy of Kid time travelling in Another World, appearing before the time of the dimensional split. In this way, both dimensions have Kid appearing before the split because they share a fused history before 1010 AD in the "Y" shaped dimensional split, but only one dimension has Kid travelling back in time.

So, in this situation, Kid would time travel in one dimension and her actions would inevitably cause the split in 1010 AD. If Kid tried to time travel in 1020 AD in Home World, she would be instantly TB'd away once she passed the 1010 AD mark since Home World didn't exist before 1010 AD.

That is, of course, assuming that a "Y" branch theory is correct. But it certainly works and is logical, isn't it?

[killercactus]

...........

So, in this situation, Kid would time travel in one dimension and her actions would inevitably cause the split in 1010 AD. If Kid tried to time travel in 1020 AD in Home World, she would be instantly TB'd away once she passed the 1010 AD mark since Home World didn't exist before 1010 AD.

That is, of course, assuming that a "Y" branch theory is correct. But it certainly works and is logical, isn't it?

It all seems logical, except for one thing:

Timeline 1 should not have Kid appearing in 1010 AD.  Kid does not travel until 1020 AD, Timeline 1, so she can't appear in 1010 AD in the same timeline.  Therefore, given your scenario, Timeline 1 and Another World can't be the same if Kid appears in 1010 in both dimensions.  This is how I think your situation should look:

Timeline 1 (pre-split, not considered Another World): ----------------------------Serge drowns in 1010 AD-----------------------Kid time travels at 1020 AD.
                                                                                                                                                                                                            l       
                                                                                                                                                                                                            l     
                                                                                                    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                                    l
                                                                                                    l                        (Another) 
                                                                                   Kid appears in 1010 AD----Serge still dies--------------------------- New Kid is TB'ed at 1020 AD
                                                                                                                                   l                                                                               
                                                                                                          Dimensions Split-50/50 chance
                                                                                                                                    l                                                                               
                                                                                                                         Serge is saved--------------------------- New Kid is TB'ed at 1020 AD
                                                                                                                               (Home)

So, the question that needs to be asked is this:  Is Another World merely Timeline 1 extended out, or is it different entirely?  I'm gonna go search the script, but I thought it was implied that Another World is just the extension of Timeline 1, the original timeline.  If that were so, I think you'd have something like this, which is what prompted my theory (the bold goes to the DBT at Time Error X):

                                                                                                         (Time Error X-6 months or so)                             (Time Error X)
Timeline 1 (pre-split, Another World): -----Serge drowns in 1010 AD----Kid calls Serge:no response-- Kid travels to 1010-Dimensions Split
                                                                                                                                      l                                                              l       
                                                                                                                                      l                                                              l
                                                                  ------------------------------------------------------l--------------------------------------------------
                                                                  l                                                                   l
                                                                  l                                                                   l
                (Home World)            Kid appears in 1010 AD----Serge is saved---------------Serge crosses-------------------------New Kid is TB'ed at 1020 AD    
                                                      (Time Error X)                                             (Time Error X+10 years)                                                     

OK - now to the script to see if I can validate that Another World is in fact the original timeline.

[chrono eric]

It all seems logical, except for one thing:

Timeline 1 should not have Kid appearing in 1010 AD.  Kid does not travel until 1020 AD, Timeline 1, so she can't appear in 1010 AD in the same timeline.  Therefore, given your scenario, Timeline 1 and Another World can't be the same if Kid appears in 1010 in both dimensions.  This is how I think your situation should look:

Ah, that's actually what I meant, but I simplified it by showing it in a single timeline since I wanted to emphasize the nature of the split, not the nature of Kid's original instance of time travel. I thought that if I made such an extensive (but impressive!) diagram as yours  that it would confuse the point I was trying to make.

And it is quite an impressive diagram, but there is one point that I still take issue with. I don't think Kid travels from 1020 AD in Another World to 1010 AD in Home World to save Serge. I think she appears in the past of both worlds, and it is her actions that set up a 50/50 chance of Serge's survival. In Home World he lives, in Another World he dies.