Dimension Split, or Dimension Duplication

[killercactus]

And it is quite an impressive diagram, but there is one point that I still take issue with. I don't think Kid travels from 1020 AD in Another World to 1010 AD in Home World to save Serge. I think she appears in the past of both worlds, and it is her actions that set up a 50/50 chance of Serge's survival. In Home World he lives, in Another World he dies.

Right - which is the difference in my theory from what's been accepted.  I could've swore that it was stated that Another World was the original timeline.  If that is so, then Kid can't appear in 1010 AD.  If she only appears in Home World, then the situation is exactly like any other time travel in the Chrono series.  Another World is in the DBT, and Home World is the new main timeline.  Serge just happens to be able to travel into the DBT, called there by Kid, whom Belthasar told to call Serge in the original timeline, even though he knew Serge wouldn't respond YET, but once he was alive, he would.  I might even go as far to say that was why Kid went back in the first place - because she called for Serge and got no answer.

But like I said, I haven't played Cross in years.  I'm really gonna have to scour the script to see if I can validate that Another World is indeed the original timeline.  I haven't got around to that yet.

[chrono eric]

I'll look later, but I believe Belthesar says something along the lines of "you are really dead Serge", and the context of it implied that he put more weight on the history of Another World than that of Home World.

If that is so, then Kid can't appear in 1010 AD. 

But I still don't follow this logic. I don't see why she couldn't appear in 1010 AD in the Another World timeline. Let's look at it like this, with Another World A and Another World B designating a change to the timeline after Kid's time travel.

Another World A - Kid time travels in 1020 AD.

Another World B - Kid arrives in 1010 AD, dimensions split.


I don't see why she couldn't appear in the past of both dimensions, since we know from the story that it apparently wasn't her direct action that caused Serge to live. She set up the 50/50 chance of his survival somehow. At the exact time of the dimensional split, everything was duplicated, including Kid, and the only difference between the two dimensions was that Serge died in one and lived in the other.

Furthermore, I'm 100% certain that it doesn't say anywhere in the script that Kid only appeared in Home World, and that would be a rather strange situation - wouldn't it? If she only appeared in Home World then that would mean that the dimensions had to split before her arrival back in time. And that doesn't make sense, unless I am overlooking something huge.

[killercactus]

I'll look later, but I believe Belthesar says something along the lines of "you are really dead Serge", and the context of it implied that he put more weight on the history of Another World than that of Home World.

If that is so, then Kid can't appear in 1010 AD. 

But I still don't follow this logic. I don't see why she couldn't appear in 1010 AD in the Another World timeline. Let's look at it like this, with Another World A and Another World B designating a change to the timeline after Kid's time travel.

Another World A - Kid time travels in 1020 AD.

Another World B - Kid arrives in 1010 AD, dimensions split.


I don't see why she couldn't appear in the past of both dimensions, since we know from the story that it apparently wasn't her direct action that caused Serge to live. She set up the 50/50 chance of his survival somehow. At the exact time of the dimensional split, everything was duplicated, including Kid, and the only difference between the two dimensions was that Serge died in one and lived in the other.

Furthermore, I'm 100% certain that it doesn't say anywhere in the script that Kid only appeared in Home World, and that would be a rather strange situation - wouldn't it? If she only appeared in Home World then that would mean that the dimensions had to split before her arrival back in time. And that doesn't make sense, unless I am overlooking something huge.

If her time travel is the cause of the split, that makes sense.  She travels before she arrives.  The situation isn't strange at all - it happened a million times in Chrono Trigger.  We just never referred to the old timeline and the new timeline as different dimensions.  That is all my theory is saying - that discarded old timelines and new timelines created by time travel are different dimensions and, prior to Serge, no one has been able to traverse them.

[chrono eric]

Ah, I see. That is actually how I thought time travel worked in the Chronoverse for a very long time as well. But I have several problems with that now. Here is the primary one: Cross seems to make it very clear that the instance of dimensional split in the game was very different from normal time travel events. It was created by a 50/50 probability situation, which would be extremely rare. Furthermore, Cross states that the future is sent to the DBT during "normal" time travel events.

[killercactus]

Ah, I see. That is actually how I thought time travel worked in the Chronoverse for a very long time as well. But I have several problems with that now. Here is the primary one: Cross seems to make it very clear that the instance of dimensional split in the game was very different from normal time travel events. It was created by a 50/50 probability situation, which would be extremely rare. Furthermore, Cross states that the future is sent to the DBT during "normal" time travel events.

I'm not disputing whether or not the futute is sent to the DBT - it certainly is.  I am theorizing, however, that Another World exists only in the DBT, and Serge is able to travel there via Angeles Errare. 

I'm still in debate about the cause of the dimensional split.  As you say, Cross seems to make it clear, but I'm not so sure.  I need to play it again and go through the script, but I was fairly sure Belthasar says something like "An event occured that put your life on the edge, so that you had a 50/50 chance of life or death."  I'm saying that, instead of the 50/50 chance ripping the dimensions, this "event" that caused it actually ripped them.  And, of course, I'm assuming the "event" is Kid's travel, since that's the only new element in the equation.

[chrono eric]

I'm not disputing whether or not the futute is sent to the DBT - it certainly is.  I am theorizing, however, that Another World exists only in the DBT, and Serge is able to travel there via Angeles Errare. 

I see now, I must have overlooked it when you said this earlier. But I still have a problem with this, because there are several points in the game where the DBT is seemingly referred to as an extra-dimensional and extra-temporal location. I'll look for quotes later as I don't have time right now (unless someone beats me to it).

I'm still in debate about the cause of the dimensional split.  As you say, Cross seems to make it clear, but I'm not so sure.  I need to play it again and go through the script, but I was fairly sure Belthasar says something like "An event occured that put your life on the edge, so that you had a 50/50 chance of life or death."  I'm saying that, instead of the 50/50 chance ripping the dimensions, this "event" that caused it actually ripped them.  And, of course, I'm assuming the "event" is Kid's travel, since that's the only new element in the equation.

Aww fuckit, I'll find the quotes right now as this would seem to be a particularly important part of the script. The emphasis is added by me, of course.

Prophet:
   Serge... This world is not
   the world you grew up in.
   10 years ago, something
   happened that put your very
   soul teetering on the
   balancing scales of fate...
   with a fifty-fifty chance
   of life or death!
   This is when your future
   was split in twain.
Prophet:
   In your home world, you
   survived to live a happy
   and prosperous life.
   That is how you made it to
   the present point in time.
   However, here in this
   '"alternate"' world,
   you are, in fact,
   very dead and buried.
   You died 10 years ago, but
   this world's time line has
   flowed on regardless.
   You have no place in this world...
   Here, you are but a ghost
   brought back from the past!

This quote is interesting because he says "alternate" in quotes almost as if implying that it is the original timeline, and it also implies that it was specifically the 50/50 chance that split the dimensions.

Prophet:
   The locations where such
   divisions in the time-space
   continua occur are called,
   '"ANGELUS ERRARE"' -
   '"Where Angels Lose Their Way."'
   It is said that, there, the
   borders of two dimensions
   fluctuate in such a way as to
   make the passage between the
   parallel realities a possibility.
   Perhaps in this world,
   you are the missing piece
   from a giant puzzle.
   And maybe, just maybe...
   the vacuum created by
   your non-existence here
   has drawn you across the
   border between the dimensions
   to fill the void in that puzzle.
   Of course, no one can
   say for sure.

Here he calls Angelus Errare a passage between two "parallel realities", which is distinctly different from the portal to the Darkness Beyond Time, which Miguel says is:

Miguel:
   History is composed of
   choices and divergences.
   Each choice you make
   creates a new world and
   brings forth a new future.
   But at the same time,
   you're eliminating a
   different future with the
   choices you didn't make.

Miguel:
   A future denied of all
   existence because of a
   change in the past...
   A future that was destroyed
   even before it was born
   rests here...condensed
   into the Dead Sea.

Here Miguel specifically states that the DBT is a place for dead timelines "denied of all existence", which contrasts greatly with your concept of Another World existing within the DBT and full of living entities. He continues to say:

Miguel:
   This lost future is about to
   disappear into the darkness
   beyond the dimensions again...
   You have no time to spare.
   You must leave here
   immediately!
   Quick...go!

That there is a specific difference between the DBT and dimensions. So, Belthasar calls Another and Home World separate parallel dimensions, and Miguel says that the DBT is beyond the dimensions. Therefore I don't think it is possible that your theory that Another World exists within the DBT is correct.

[killercactus]

Ick - I was good with every one of those quotes until I read that last one (thanks for going back to the script - I keep jumping on here when I have about 5 minutes).  "Beyond the dimensions" really does seem to put my theory of Another World existing in the DBT out of reach.  Though, if that is the case, that means that Dinopolis was not pulled from the DBT, but from a 3rd dimension.  I also wonder how the Time Devourer could've consumed the Dragon God if it was never in the DBT....

Since I'm stubborn, I'm going to still hold onto this, except with a slight change.  If Another World can't be in the DBT, I can still argue that it should be - there's just something that is holding it in place.  Some irregularity that has latched Another World to existence.  Once the irregularity is cleared, Another World would then go to the DBT.  What is the irregularity?  FATE?  Serge?  I'll have to think about that.....

I still think it was Kid's travel that tore the dimensions though.... I'll use your quote (emphasis is mine this time):

Prophet:
   Serge... This world is not
   the world you grew up in.
   10 years ago, something
   happened that put your very
   soul teetering on the
   balancing scales of fate...   with a fifty-fifty chance
   of life or death!
   This is when your future
   was split in twain.
Prophet:
   In your home world, you
   survived to live a happy
   and prosperous life.
   That is how you made it to
   the present point in time.
   However, here in this
   '"alternate"'world,
   you are, in fact,
   very dead and buried.
   You died 10 years ago, but
   this world's time line has
   flowed on regardless.
   You have no place in this world...
   Here, you are but a ghost
   brought back from the past!

See - "something" happened to cause the 50/50 split.  Couldn't it just as easily be that "something" that split the dimensions?  We know what the "something" was - Kid's travel back.  Also, like you mentioned, Belthasar seems to be implying here that Another World is the original timeline.  Kid wouldn't appear in the past of the original timeline - that we know.  If that's true, the 50/50 chance isn't present in Another World, so how can it be the agent that split the dimensions?

[placidchap]

I think Eclipse Magus was put there for a reason.  His dialogue should not be taken lightly.  I think it helps explain Cross in a different manner than it is currently thought.

Everyone here pretty much assumes that the 50/50 chance of Serge living/dying is the cause of a split of one dimension into two dimensions.  Or if not that, then Kid’s time travel to Opassa Beach to try and save Serge was the cause.  Now what if their was no split at all?  If there are as many “worlds as there are potentialities” as Eclipse Magus states, then two separate dimensions already exist (and they exist for the following specific reason); one where Serge lives and one where Serge dies, an outcome that drastically changes the events following that instance. 

These dimensions have the H shape, even though they have the same past up to the point of Serge’s 50/50 chance.  (There is no evidence that dimensions with the same past have to be a Y shape).  The “Another” world Kid travels back in time to try and save Serge (I assume under Belthasar’s guidance...) and her interference causes the angelus errare between the two dimensions.  While not actually saving him (as evidenced by his death in one of the dimensions) she did effectively save him in the sense that Serge can now exist in a world where he should no longer be alive.  I think this is what Belthasar was going after; not some god-like foresight of a split of dimensions, but the linking of two already existing dimensions.

He obviously knows that multiple dimensions exists and Chronopolis labels the two relevant dimensions as 01 and 02 (not to mention the recording of Radical Dreamers, another dimension they were viewing) and it is not unthinkable that Belthasar ran a few tests to see how to create a link between dimensions.  I would think most reasonable people would start their search with trying to find why two dimensions exist.  He eventually finds out that if you interfere with the instance (the reason) that two dimensions exist instead of one, you create an angelus errare between the two dimensions. 

   “with a fifty-fifty chance
   of life or death!
   This is when your future
   was split in twain.”

Belthasar is not talking about a dimensional split but a split of Serge’s future (and as a result, eventually affecting everyone else in the dimension) over two different (already existing) dimensions.

[chrono eric]

That's an interesting interpretation of Belthasar's quote placidchap, but other characters besides him, such as Schala, talk about the dimensions literally splitting - so are we to interpret all of them like that?

  (There is no evidence that dimensions with the same past have to be a Y shape). 

Not so, the primary evidence in favor of it is the fact that the Dead Sea doesn't appear until 1010 AD. We have started discussions about why this could be (with an H shape) in other threads, but honestly I don't think it has been satisfactorily answered. The Y shape is the simplest explanation for this, until we come up with a better one.

[placidchap]

Alright, even so...Y-shape or not, Belthasar's plan could have been to create the link between the two dimensions, not create the dimension split itself.  As mentioned before, he is already aware of multiple dimensions...he could have looked in the past to see when this particular dimension split, found it was when Serge had that 50/50 shot...after some testing finds out that to create a link between two dimensions, he needs to interfere with the split...sends Kid back etc etc...

Anything that throws this out the window?

[killercactus]

Well, I don't think that Serge has the 50/50 shot until Kid travels back.  That puts a chink in it - how can the dimensions split before Kid travels back, if its her travel that ultimately causes it?

Plus, either in this thread or another, I think Thought proved that the split was Y shaped (or at least proved that it isn't H shaped). 

[placidchap]

That puts a chink in it if that is what causes the split...which I don't really believe (as I mentioned I believe that it causes the weak spot on Opassa Beach).  I am putting my faith/money on the one line that Eclipse Magus said about worlds and potentialities...a 50/50 chance = 2 "potentialities" = 2 worlds/dimensions/universes = what we see in Cross. 

Also brings Belthasar down a notch from "I can create Dimensions" to  "I figured out how to link two dimensions".

[killercactus]

Other way around. I am fairly sure that Kato said in an interview that FATE killed Miguel in another world...

Here we go:

Question: What could be the reason that Miguel was stuck in the Dead Sea? And, were there two of him in existence?

Answer: 14 years ago when he entered the Sea of Eden, he was bewitched. By the knowledge of the future, by the powers of FATE. Perhaps he was overwhelmed in the sea of information, perhaps he became one with Chronopolis. When the world separated into two, of course, there were two of him. The one who was in Chronopolis, was eliminated by FATE, I'm afraid.

As taken from this interview: http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Ultimania_Interview.html

Here's what I was talking about when I said Thought proved the Y split.  It also strongly implies (IMO) that there weren't two dimensions until the Dead Sea formed, because Kato says that there two Miguels at that point, and only then did FATE kill Another World Miguel. 

[placidchap]

Thanks for the quote.  I am fine with a Y split, that really wasn't the focus of my previous post...what I am saying is that Kid's interference with Serge caused the angelus errare but not the split.

[killercactus]

Thanks for the quote.  I am fine with a Y split, that really wasn't the focus of my previous post...what I am saying is that Kid's interference with Serge caused the angelus errare but not the split.

I see.... but if Kid's interference only causes Angelus Errare, what causes Serge's 50/50 chance?  That would mean Serge had a 50/50 chance of life or death before Kid traveled, which means:

1) Lynx had a 50/50 shot of killing Serge without any outside interference and

2) Lynx failed in Home World without Kid thwarting him