Serge = Magus

[Chrono'99]

The Chrono Compendium - What? There's a site, too?

3. where'd that catillion gown come from with the big rose on the side? kid never wears anything like that, even in concept art i'm pretty sure (correct me if i'm wrong here please)

From Kid's article:

http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Image:110.jpg.html

---

5. memories get erased at the end. so there's probable chance that they don't remember each other, much less chance that they get married.

From: http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Ultimania_Developer_Interviews.html

"I – So you wanted to connect the works with the relationships between Serge and Kid, and also Schala.

Kato – To pin it down, Serge and Kid were where I tried the hardest, moreover making a ‘boy meets girl’ kinda thing. A kid named Serge meets a girl named Kid and together they get wrapped up in an adventure. From the world he doesn’t know about secrets are slowly revealed, about Serge himself, Schala from the past, and how fate is tied in. This could just be an ending where boy meets girl and they do their story, but perhaps there’s another dimension, another story, a different meeting, and a completely different life story that you could have. I persistently tried my hardest to get the player to question things like this.

I – So for a good ending movie, you tried to use the crossing point of a young girl and her other side to imagine “a story in another dimension.”

Kato – Yeah, like that. I thought that was the perfect material to use to give meaning to a parallel world. In each independent parallel world there would be respective developing stories. If we did it that way, people at home could use the experience of Serge in the game’s worlds to think about the reality of their own world. Maybe somewhere in our world there’s a Kid, and surely someday we will find and meet. For a long time I’ve wanted realizations developed from games to not just stop with the game, and now I feel I’ve done it right. There’s a message that comes after the ending movie finished, and I hope that all players will understand these words that have come from my heart. That’s what I’d love to have happen.

---

6. i've never seen a wedding photo that looked like that. there's nothing on her head to indicate that she's a bride. no veil, no visible garland. no flowers. no nothing. i know this one's a stretch but really at least i have reason to support my belief.

From Kid's article again: http://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/7/7c/110.jpg Sketch on the top-right corner says "Indian wedding dress"

[V_Translanka]

That's definitely a curtain behind him, not his hair, unless the photo was taken outside (with that kind of chair?) and somehow there was a gust of wind that blew on his hair but on nothing else in the picture (Schala's hair and dress are totally unaffected, etc.). It's apparently the left curtain of a window and you can see the right curtain at the top right corner between Schala's hair and the picture frame.

You say it can't be his hair because nothing else is effected by wind, but if you think that it's a curtain then how would IT be effected by wind when nothing else is? That argument is void. SOMETHING is causing WHATEVER you believe it to be to move. If it's not simply wind and is in fact hair, then perhaps the person just MOVED his hair. I see no window and the "other curtain" looks quite different from the other one (and is barely visible at all, I'd just call it background junk, possibly just shadows).

Also Masato Kato talked about that ending in the translated part of the Ultimania Developers interview, and he explained it in terms of Serge and Kid and "boy meets girls" stuff. He said nothing about Magus being involved in it.

Of course he wouldn't mention Magus, he didn't even show his face...It would just be there as a slight nod. The ending itself seemed less about Serge and more about what Kid (/and/or Schala) was doing...

As for Bekkler's theory...I don't understand why Schala would randomly have a picture of Serge's parents...nor why they would choose to show it...and it could be blonde or Schala's normal blue shade, it's impossible to tell, but it's not Marge...and, as mentioned, no need to cover up Wazuki's face either...

Concept art is just that. One character's design can easily be scrapped and/or be reused for someone else or some other situation entirely.

I don't see what that part of the Ultimania interview clears up...He mostly just talks about the Tokyo scene and how it's like Schala coming into the real world so that fans can really nerd out on it.

[Thought]

okay, i get it. you guys don't think so. but nobody has a practical reason why it definitely couldn't be wazuki and serge's mom, right?

Correct. There are circumstantial reasons, but nothing definitively disproves it. Of course, nothing difinitively proves it either (and there isn't any circumstantial evidence other than the suit looking vaguely like Lynx's)

1. can't see his face. did you ever see wazuki's face? really, i don't know. could be why.

Evidence of nothing. It could equally be Crono...

That's it, it's Crono and Marle! It fits just as well.

2. picture looks old. like really old.

You are confusing an "old picture" with a picture that might have been taken with less than modern technology. Oh, say technology roughly 60 or so years behind the modern day, such as the general feel of the technology in CC, perhaps?

4. it's pretty blurry. even when i hold CTRL and + to get in close on the face (i use an hdtv as a monitor so it gets pretty big) the girl's face is indistinct.

Not evidence of anything.

5. memories get erased at the end. so there's probable chance that they don't remember each other, much less chance that they get married.

Which isn't evidence that it is Lynx and Marge, but rather that it isn't Serge and Kid. Well, minus that whole "Kid Searching for someone who's most likely Serge" bit at the end.

6. i've never seen a wedding photo that looked like that. there's nothing on her head to indicate that she's a bride. no veil, no visible garland. no flowers. no nothing.

To note, there seems to be a number of Japanese Wedding Photos out on the web in which the bride isn't wearing anything on her head to indicate that she's a bride. Of course, they often have flowers... like those sitting in the chair next to her.

But then, how many wedding photo's have you see in which the groom's wearing a quasi-kilt?

You say it can't be his hair because nothing else is effected by wind, but if you think that it's a curtain then how would IT be effected by wind when nothing else is?

I'd say it can't be hair because either the guy has it handing from an afro or his head is about 3 or 4 feet wide. I mean look at it! The angle necessitates that the origin of whatever the object is must be about a foot away from a normally proportioned head would be.

But as for wind, who said anything about wind? Simple drapery that has been pulled to the side. Perhaps it was tied somewhere, perhaps its just overly large and flops over there, perhaps it isn't a curtain by just random cloth that serves no purpose except to be a background (like as is often used in engagement photos). Here, look as a few curtains that are being moved by wind:
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&um=1&sa=1&q=curtain+wind&aq=f&oq=

note how the wind makes them billow out, not stay neatly folded. Same with hair: http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&um=1&sa=1&q=hair+in+wind&aq=f&oq=
wind tends to make it all... messy.

[V_Translanka]

Crono's hair defies logic as well. I also don't believe Kid is searching for Serge. If she's searching for anything, I would think she's searching for herself, her purpose, now that her mind is off of revenge...if Kid & Schala merged (which I'm also still doubtful of) I would think this especially...and would still say that Schala would be searching for Janus over anyone else.

[Mr Bekkler]

Regardless of in what time CT was, you can never tell when their picture was taken. It could have been years and years later.

can't tell when the picture was taken? so it could have been years and years later...or earlier...

Indeed, which is why you cannot use that argument to verify this one.

I'm not saying it verifies anything. In fact, quite the opposite. I'm saying it is no argument.

Here's Wazuki's face

Thank you. I actually have seen that, but totally forgot about it.

3: Why in the hell would Wazuki, an ordinary fisherman, wear a costume like that? You said it can't be a wedding photo, so a wedding costume is out of the picture. Same goes for Marge, who's just the wife of a poor fisherman. Luxurous clothing is a no no.
And 4: Marge is a brunette, not a blonde.

3. Cause he becomes Lynx and Lynx gets his clothes from somewhere.
4. Can't tell. It's sepia.

The Chrono Compendium - What? There's a site, too?

I was on my way to work and in a hurry! So sue me. 

3. where'd that catillion gown come from with the big rose on the side? kid never wears anything like that, even in concept art i'm pretty sure (correct me if i'm wrong here please)

From Kid's article:
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Image:110.jpg.html

I stand corrected. She still didn't have the big rose on the side of the dress in the concept art.

5. memories get erased at the end. so there's probable chance that they don't remember each other, much less chance that they get married.

From: http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Ultimania_Developer_Interviews.html

"I – So you wanted to connect the works with the relationships between Serge and Kid, and also Schala.
Kato – To pin it down, Serge and Kid were where I tried the hardest, moreover making a ‘boy meets girl’ kinda thing. A kid named Serge meets a girl named Kid and together they get wrapped up in an adventure. From the world he doesn’t know about secrets are slowly revealed, about Serge himself, Schala from the past, and how fate is tied in. This could just be an ending where boy meets girl and they do their story, but perhaps there’s another dimension, another story, a different meeting, and a completely different life story that you could have. I persistently tried my hardest to get the player to question things like this.
I – So for a good ending movie, you tried to use the crossing point of a young girl and her other side to imagine “a story in another dimension.”
Kato – Yeah, like that. I thought that was the perfect material to use to give meaning to a parallel world. In each independent parallel world there would be respective developing stories. If we did it that way, people at home could use the experience of Serge in the game’s worlds to think about the reality of their own world. Maybe somewhere in our world there’s a Kid, and surely someday we will find and meet. For a long time I’ve wanted realizations developed from games to not just stop with the game, and now I feel I’ve done it right. There’s a message that comes after the ending movie finished, and I hope that all players will understand these words that have come from my heart. That’s what I’d love to have happen.

That doesn't mean anything. He wanted to focus on Serge and Kid meeting. And he wanted to emphasize anything can happen (even main characters tying the knot) in other dimensions.

6. i've never seen a wedding photo that looked like that. there's nothing on her head to indicate that she's a bride. no veil, no visible garland. no flowers. no nothing. i know this one's a stretch but really at least i have reason to support my belief.

From Kid's article again: http://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/7/7c/110.jpg Sketch on the top-right corner says "Indian wedding dress"

Why'd you save this till last? This is good logic, and helps your point. It still doesn't prove the point but it definitely helps.

okay, i get it. you guys don't think so. but nobody has a practical reason why it definitely couldn't be wazuki and serge's mom, right?

Correct. There are circumstantial reasons, but nothing definitively disproves it. Of course, nothing difinitively proves it either (and there isn't any circumstantial evidence other than the suit looking vaguely like Lynx's)

Exactly. But if you can't disprove it, then you can't prove it's Serge and Kid. That was what I was trying to get at.

1. can't see his face. did you ever see wazuki's face? really, i don't know. could be why.

Evidence of nothing. It could equally be Crono...

That's it, it's Crono and Marle! It fits just as well.

Nope. It fits better. This is what I choose to believe from here on out.

2. picture looks old. like really old.

You are confusing an "old picture" with a picture that might have been taken with less than modern technology. Oh, say technology roughly 60 or so years behind the modern day, such as the general feel of the technology in CC, perhaps?

Perhaps, but look. This is what I'm basing it on. I know they're different styles but it's all the same chronoverse.

6. i've never seen a wedding photo that looked like that. there's nothing on her head to indicate that she's a bride. no veil, no visible garland. no flowers. no nothing.

To note, there seems to be a number of Japanese Wedding Photos out on the web in which the bride isn't wearing anything on her head to indicate that she's a bride. Of course, they often have flowers... like those sitting in the chair next to her.

Fine. But compare.

I'd say it can't be hair because either the guy has it handing from an afro or his head is about 3 or 4 feet wide. I mean look at it! The angle necessitates that the origin of whatever the object is must be about a foot away from a normally proportioned head would be.

Agreed there.

[V_Translanka]

I was on my way to work and in a hurry! So sue me. 

You're not the first to be reminded, that's for sure...V_V

Perhaps, but look. This is what I'm basing it on. I know they're different styles but it's all the same chronoverse.

It's just not a good argument because all you're saying is that two photos have different styles...Photos can be changed quite easily to match older styles...now it's as simple as a few mouse clicks, but even back when photography was relatively new, it was all up to how you developed them, your camera's aperture & w/e else. Just because the CT one is more colorful than the CC one doesn't really help your case...

[Mr Bekkler]

Yeah, I know.

I tried though.

[placidchap]

it's serge's mom and wazuki,

That would be like putting a picture of Lara and Taban at the end of Chrono Trigger.  It would make little, if any, sense.

[Mr Bekkler]

it's serge's mom and wazuki,

That would be like putting a picture of Lara and Taban at the end of Chrono Trigger.  It would make little, if any, sense.

I like the idea that it's Chrono and Marle actually. Really I just don't like the idea that it's Serge and Kid's wedding photo, and I was trying to prove that it could very well be something else. But the Ultimania sketches are pretty solid evidence to the contrary, I'll admit.

[Magus22]

True... Ultimania lays down the law here with those sketches. That male individual is definitely Serge, but the female is either Kid or Schala, or Schala "Kid" Zeal. Now, it is not Leena, surprisingly, which leads me to believe that photo could have been taken in a different dimension/quantum universe. Serge returned to Opassa Beach with memories of his journey. It can only be assumed that he continued his life from that point and continued on with Leena.

But... that brings up some questions: Did Schala/Kid seek him out and find him where the meeting was mutual, leading to marriage? Did Leena die sometime after Serge returned to the Ideal Timeline? Is Serge a playa?

I want to say that girl is Schala sitting on the chair with Zealian attire only because I do not see Kid wearing something like that (which is not all improbable either). I rather think Kid was "absorbed" back into Schala where she acquired all her knowledge, experiences, etc... while retaining all her original knowledge in Zeal, and after the TD. You could say "Kid" was an artificial messenger from Schala, which may explain how Harle was created during the "cloning" process.

[Dark Serge]

I don't think Kid and Schala merged. After the ending, you can see two things:

- A blonde girl in a dress looking out over the sea from the beach. It's pretty much sealed that this is Schala, and is the one who keeps talking about finding someone (probably Serge).

- A blonde girl in Kid's clothes sailing off on a ship like Korcha's. Since I see no reason why the merged Schala would put on Kid's clothes, this pretty much sealed it for me that they didn't merge.

Schala finds Serge and marries him, and Kid goes on to live her own life.

[Mr Bekkler]

Schala finds Serge and marries him, and Kid goes on to live her own life.

I like this explanation, as with everything discussed, it seems to fit the best. Only one question comes to my mind, though. Does Schala know/experience what Kid experiences in-game? As in, does Schala know Serge from the whole adventure, or does she just know that he's the one that saved her?

[Dark Serge]

Good one. I don't think so. Kid blatantly states how she's her own person, and if Schala would somehow be able to look through Kid's eyes, I think it would apply in reverse as well.

At the very least, Schala knows Serge from when she heard his crying, and from when he saved her. I don't think it changes much whether or not she knows Kid's experiences, considering you don't ever have to have Kid with you in the game at any time.

[V_Translanka]

I still don't see how the sketches prove anything besides the fact that there were ideas for a costume and initially they were thought to be put on Serge...If we'll all remember, Magus was "initially" going to be in the game as well, but in the end we just got Guile instead. I admit that it gives credence to the theory, I just don't think it's solid enough to call it proof.

And I still don't think Schala married Serge...I mean...why? Because she heard him cry? Because he saved her? What about everyone else in the party? Schala is just going to completely ignore them but immediately fall in love with Serge just cause she's the princess and he saved her? I'll admit that's pretty cliché and thus is in keeping with the Chrono series being intentionally cliché, but it just seems like such a big step...I'll only begin to believe it if they connect more dots along that path for us...

But, no, I don't think Kid & Schala merged either for those reasons that Dark Serge stated (see! we can agree on some things! you just gotta BELIEVE!!)...Though I still don't completely understand the "Schala 'Kid' Zeal" signature...I don't think I would really understand it even if I thought they did merge though...Perhaps I should examine the diary entry in its full again...

[utunnels]

Hmm, in the unified time line, they had not met yet? So it is reasonable why she/they would find him "again"?

As for Schala "Kid" Zeal, perhaps that "Kid" means Project Kid, since you can rename your character *shrug*