Author Topic: Dream Devourer ending links Magus to Guile?  (Read 21946 times)

placidchap

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Re: Dream Devourer ending links Magus to Guile?
« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2009, 08:27:25 am »
Yeah but come on, it definitely seems to be heavily implied by the ending.

And as for Magus = Serge or whatever, that is like saying Magus = Razzly.

They both have blue hair...what more do you need?

As for Guile = Magus = Guile, I have no problem with that.  Makes it all the more tragic, that such a strong-willed character has lost his memories and personality.  And that such an important character from Trigger became nothing more than a secondary character in Cross.  It changes him from 23 pages of the pinned topic "Is Magus really all that cool?" to nothingness.

me4all4

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Re: Dream Devourer ending links Magus to Guile?
« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2009, 11:00:22 am »
As for Guile = Magus = Guile, I have no problem with that.  Makes it all the more tragic, that such a strong-willed character has lost his memories and personality.  And that such an important character from Trigger became nothing more than a secondary character in Cross.  It changes him from 23 pages of the pinned topic "Is Magus really all that cool?" to nothingness.


Wait... That's actually a topic?  23 pages?!  How can someone debate the intensity of Magus?  His backstory and his hand in the fall of zeal is amazing, not to mention how SE tried their best to link Chrono Trigger to Chrono Cross through Magus most likely stumbling through another dimension.  But what confuses me, is that if they're in a different dimension, then why do Chrono Marle and Lucca show up around the end of the game, even if it's just in a cameo?

mav

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Re: Dream Devourer ending links Magus to Guile?
« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2009, 02:39:52 pm »
Eh, the appearance of Crono, Marle, and Lucca is a whole debate in itself--is it really them, are they apparitions, is it some item in the larger scheme of things, etc. Connecting Cross to Trigger is something I think the Compendium is doing very well, even if some of it is based on heavy speculation.
Ah I misunderstood you, apologies. I too think there isn't enough evidence for a definitive conclusion. But I'd put my money on it, you bet. I think it is an extremely likely scenario in a remake of Cross.

Which actually irritates me to tell you the truth, because I would rather see a new Chrono game than a Cross remake. But at the same time, a Cross remake may re-ignite the series...
Worry not--we're in the same boat; I'm willing to bet that Magus and Guile are the same guy and that that was what the new ending was hinting, I just don't like confirming anything without evidence. Likewise, I'm also slightly annoyed that it looks like we'll get a Cross port as opposed to something new. I have nothing against CC, but I'd rather see a new installment in the series. In fact, I liked CC as it was; if they port it and try to make Guile more like Magus, it's gonna change a whole load of things, partially eradicating what we've come to love.

But if we want to start establishing some ground to the theory that Magus is Guile, we really need to re-examine Janus. We need to look at that little boy as he would have developed without the inner torment of growing up in another time period, without the [mis]guidance of the Mystics, and without the psychological scarring that likely occurred when he lost Schala--without those factors who would he be? In my opinion, his magic would still be incomparable, but he would lose that anger and general disdain that made Magus. He'd be some kind of powerful sorcerer that just wanders around doing nothing spectacular...

Zephira

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Re: Dream Devourer ending links Magus to Guile?
« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2009, 02:48:23 pm »
...and without the psychological scarring that likely occurred when he lost Schala...
I think some of that scarring may have carried over. The only thing he could 'remember' was this need to find someone. He didn't know who or why, but the need was still there. So you'd have some kind of wandering uber-powerful sorcerer doing nothing spectacular, who is perpetually lost and has this void he just can't seem to fill.

Magus22

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Re: Dream Devourer ending links Magus to Guile?
« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2009, 07:49:22 pm »
Technically, doesn't Magus have no way of getting back to the present after he jumped back in that gate to 12,000BC to search for Schala?

I know we are talking about Magus here, but still...

I theorize that all of the characters who entered the gate, during the normal canon ending of CT, actually went back to the End of Time with Gaspar where they walked to their respective "pillar". The gate officially closes when Crono's cats and mom entered...

Magus could have even changed Frog back to human Glenn, or said he would have his real body back after he went back to 600AD. Now perhaps Gaspar pulled Magus aside after everyone arrived at the End of Time, and had a little chat as they all returned to their respectful times. It is possible that he told him that if he searched for Schala, he would find nothing. Magus insists and he goes to the pillar, and Gaspar tells him that the gate will remain open until he was done. (pure speculation)

IF Magus even returned to Another World (if he is still alive), and having the appropriate means to get back of course, why did he not intervene during the Orphanage incident and destroy Lynx and Harle with his Shadow magic? Something had to have been going on... or he was told not to intervene as it could have had some relevant yet negative impact, with Serge and all travelling back to help young Kid... He is most likely still present in the Chronoverse (according to Lucca's letter to Kid), just AWOL...

The new ending was created for a reason. But instead of answering vital questions we want/need, it just created more confusion and speculation as to who or what became of that mindless Magus walking through an empty forest, simply saying that he "needed to do something"...

I am leaning towards the Eclipse Magus = Guile theory as of now, but that is subject to change as soon as SE announces a remake of CC on the DS or primary console for download (new features added of course). I mean, why would SE go through the trouble of creating that ending with Magus? SE wanted fans to put their thinking caps on. Though now I wonder... if Guile from CC is the Magus from CTDS, after the worlds united, does he still exist along with Another World's characters like Pierre, Direa, and Dario?

chrono eric

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Re: Dream Devourer ending links Magus to Guile?
« Reply #35 on: March 24, 2009, 12:02:08 am »
Magus22, whenever I read your posts I can't help but read them with a Picard voice in my head.

mav

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Re: Dream Devourer ending links Magus to Guile?
« Reply #36 on: March 24, 2009, 03:02:14 pm »
Hah.

I am leaning towards the Eclipse Magus = Guile theory as of now, but that is subject to change as soon as SE announces a remake of CC on the DS or primary console for download (new features added of course). I mean, why would SE go through the trouble of creating that ending with Magus? SE wanted fans to put their thinking caps on. Though now I wonder... if Guile from CC is the Magus from CTDS, after the worlds united, does he still exist along with Another World's characters like Pierre, Direa, and Dario?
Interesting...is there any reason for him not to exist? I guess it depends on which of the Dimensional Unification theories you believe. I honestly don't know, but Guile (post-Dimensional Unification) should have no holding on Magus as Guile--it's just his ending...

zackforester

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Re: Dream Devourer ending links Magus to Guile?
« Reply #37 on: March 24, 2009, 09:16:37 pm »
Interesting...is there any reason for him not to exist? I guess it depends on which of the Dimensional Unification theories you believe. I honestly don't know, but Guile (post-Dimensional Unification) should have no holding on Magus as Guile--it's just his ending...

If Guile is Magus, after the Chrono Cross is used and all the other dimensions are merged into Homeworld and no one has memories from any other time lines, he's the only incarnation of Magus left.

Also, having just beat Chrono Cross, I'm of the opinion that Lucca was killed in the fire when Lynx attacked and something tragic befell Crono and Marle since Lucca says. "Sorry for making you sad, Kid... You see, we no longer exist in this timeline."

And as far as Magus being trapped in 12,000 BC, there's pictures of Frog, Lucca, and Robo on the walls of the orphanage. There's no reason Magus couldn't have also made his way back to the present as well. And actually, I've been thinking that it makes more sense for Janus to be Guile rather than Magus because Guile is 26, the year is 1020, Janus was about 6 when he fell into the dimensional vortex. By my count Magus was about around 30 when you fight him in 600 AD. Even assuming he traveled to the present he would be pushing 50 by the time Guile is supposed to be 26.

Also, I found this in my database from back when I was much bigger into the series:

MAGUS, JANUS, GILBERT, AND GUILE EXPLAINED

Intro
   First of all in the end of CT, during the new FMV's Magus is shown going into the forest to search for Schala, but the game never says anything else. Unfortunately it took the script writers to get a clear explanation of what happened. Magus goes off with Alfador, who seems to ignore everything and heads to look for her. However Magus says he is going to go back into the past to find Schala. The funny thing is what the scenario writer says on it is very confusing: "While we intended for Guile to be Magus, we did not make this intention clear enough and changed his clothes to make people no believe he was Magus. Guile is actually based off a character in Radical Dreamers which is believed to be Magus, and guides Kid through the game. However while we made it so Magus was to be the one doing the time hop, we decided to rework the events so that Janus was the one. This is how the area of Radical Dreamers turns out in the end." While he states they in fact intended Guile to be Magus, the way they word it is not something that any right hand gamer can just off the fly understand. When decoding the real wording and intention, here is what so is: During the time Magus left to go search for Schala, was during the exact incident where Janus is supposedly going to go through dimensions crossing over. However, when this event transpires, it is at the exact same moment which the Time Crash occurs. Janus instead who can not time hop, does get spliced into the dimensional vortex creating a rupture which makes several unconscious Time Doppelgangers, which are not aware of anything because those dimensions themselves have been created. The same time Janus stepped through the portal, all of a sudden the Radical Dreamers dimension was created off of an alternate split reality. Janus then was lost in that space of the moment, creating an alternate time doppelganger in a reality never his own. Because Janus in this instance never went through the dimensional gateway, and did not ever become Magus later on, he stays the same.

Guile is Janus (Time Crash/Memory Loss)
   Therefore Janus of Zeal, who at that moment of the Time Crash, was lost into another being. Alfador on the other hand did not travel anywhere near the present time, he instead got lost in the chaos. The other being washed up on the shore in 1000 AD with no memory whatsoever of his origin, a "spawn" of another life form. This being quickly became a traveling magician, called Guile by the people of Termina. He did wacky fortunes, and told funny stories while he collected his weight as a magician to take on an even larger stake: That of discovering the truth which was hidden from him like a black veil. He learned the trains of a magician, however, knew no such special spells, only little magic tricks. He met up with Serge and co who were off to defeat Lynx, and needed something to pass the time. He went with them, never deciding to take off his mask because he liked his enigma qualities, and when he reached the Frozen Flame, he stumbled back. Unaware that such a power could have existed in him, perhaps, but never will. He exclaims in the game if you have him in the front of the party "I am not that ...No....It's not possible....I am not that!!!" and indeed he is correct, he is not that. Guile is a rip-off time doppelganger of Janus; he has no correlation to Magus whatsoever.  He only had the appearance of that of Janus, not Magus, nor even knew what the Mystics were. He was born, and bred, an idiot. After that event, he sought to repay his gambling debts Perhaps Sneff knew what his life was really like. Hmm??? Or perhaps the mask he takes off in front of Kid which produces no reaction when he loses his 'bet'. Guile always wished to be something he's not, something he could never be.

Gilbert is Magus (Time Crash/Memory Loss)
   At the same time Magus was in that moment traveling backwards across that plane and in the Time Crash spawned himself into another "life form". This life form was simply known as Gilbert. One day Gilbert arrived in the form of a young earnest side show traveler, who was quickly adopted by parents, met his girlfriend, and became a great thief. He went on through his life to discover he might hold untapped powers, ones that could shake the heavens. Or maybe he just liked his life as a thief. He decided one day long ago that he would go on an adventure, and with Serge and CO joined the Radical Dreamers to become part of this adventure and live it to the last day. But when they traveled into Lynx's Manor, and he had grown attached to his friends, he realized the truth about his life. Something he could not ever attain, something he could not ever be. He wished to be something more than a thief, who traveled and stole the Frozen Flame. Perhaps the first thief to steal the Frozen Flame??? Or maybe the last??? Still, he dreamed of fighting the wars of chaos, and learning from his shadow powers he inherited automatically from his real birthmother(who lies across dimensions) decided to make his life the fullest it could possibly be. He went on and wished to marry Lulu, they had several daughters, and in that life, lived happily and as rich as can be. He could never ever say that he knew what the strength of his abilities were, but he traveled the stars and cosmos, running across mischief and adventure, where he styled his name after a rock star, and became well known throughout for hunting space criminals. He never knew the truth which birthed him, he never could accept that. He instead gave his life into the card tricks which a thief will play, and learned and as a wandering thief he was remembered by those who cared in the land.

Outro
   Flash forward to 1020 AD, The Chrono Cross is used. All of a sudden every dimension which existed outside of home ceases to exist, Guile, Magil, and all incarnations of Serge, General Viper and every character are wiped completely out. They were never born. Just as in sliders if you were to look at one of the dimensions where Quinn found out he discovered the theory of relativity. It never happened, he isn't that smart, and that dimension after everything else ceased completely. Because of this, one can not say that Mars Daio, the Old Woman, or any of them were in fact real. As Kid learns, at the end of her story, she will never be a thief again. And in that sense, she cannot. After all, Magil, Serge, those people are who made the game fun. As for the cat Alfador, he does nothing but follow Magus, who is at this moment, unaware of everyone, dwelling in the past looking for Schala, and watching over her through the dimensional gateway he travels. He knows nothing of the strange bygones, and may, as it were not ever realize what truly happened. Yet in the same sense, his play in the role of the events caused those with imagination to wonder, would Magus really come back??? The answer is nay, not until the writers of the Chrono Sequel decide to put him in. Though maybe everyone's favorite Mystic raised brat is not present, the world goes on. And in that same sense, people in the games like Glenn and Frog, are distanced by hundreds of years making it impossible for them to even have the same bloodline, much less exist in the same moment. However, those who will dream, may say some day the fateful Frog returns to his human form, and comes back to the world to slay Lynx. There is nothing wrong with a dream.

Magus22

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Re: Dream Devourer ending links Magus to Guile?
« Reply #38 on: March 25, 2009, 01:59:56 am »
If Guile is Magus, after the Chrono Cross is used and all the other dimensions are merged into Homeworld and no one has memories from any other time lines, he's the only incarnation of Magus left.

How so? CTDS proves there are already two Magus's. The proof is in Time's Eclipse.

Quote from: zackforester
Also, having just beat Chrono Cross, I'm of the opinion that Lucca was killed in the fire when Lynx attacked and something tragic befell Crono and Marle since Lucca says. "Sorry for making you sad, Kid... You see, we no longer exist in this timeline."

No no no... they are dead in the Home World time line, either from a failed attempt to kill Lavos, or from Dalton. Also, Kid stated that Lynx "took Lucca away" implying that he brought her somewhere, not necessarily killed her.

Quote from: zackforester
And as far as Magus being trapped in 12,000 BC, there's pictures of Frog, Lucca, and Robo on the walls of the orphanage. There's no reason Magus couldn't have also made his way back to the present as well. And actually, I've been thinking that it makes more sense for Janus to be Guile rather than Magus because Guile is 26, the year is 1020, Janus was about 6 when he fell into the dimensional vortex. By my count Magus was about around 30 when you fight him in 600 AD. Even assuming he traveled to the present he would be pushing 50 by the time Guile is supposed to be 26.

They had Ayla too, and even a picture of a Nu - which is surprising as we never saw Nu's in 1000AD... who knows... maybe for "show-and-tell", Lucca brought in her friends from those time periods. Wait, Frog was on the wall? I don't remember seeing him...

Also... all of that other talk is pure rubbish. Janus and Melchior were sucked into a black gate and were most likely discarded to the DBT.

utunnels

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Re: Dream Devourer ending links Magus to Guile?
« Reply #39 on: March 25, 2009, 02:05:10 am »
Even if the kids had never saw a Nu, Lucca could still draw it, right?

mav

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Re: Dream Devourer ending links Magus to Guile?
« Reply #40 on: March 25, 2009, 12:35:46 pm »
Right, but most of 'em looked like they were drawn by children. I'm partial to the theory that Lucca brought the friends to the children, as opposed to taking the kids to the respective time periods. Regardless, we don't see a Magus drawing. In my opinion, he wasn't really befriended by the party so much. Remember that photograph they show in the cutscene intro to CT? It had a picture of the entire party, sans Magus. He either didn't care or wasn't anywhere to be found.

Oh and the drawing Frog is a point of interest, by the way, is it him on the left? It looks like his dead sprite:

utunnels

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Re: Dream Devourer ending links Magus to Guile?
« Reply #41 on: March 25, 2009, 12:47:54 pm »
Yeah, those are drawn by children. But maybe Lucca told them the story and taught they how to draw.

BTW, in the demo versin, this Lucca's picture was used instead. I don't know why they chose to use another one. LOL
« Last Edit: March 25, 2009, 12:49:30 pm by utunnels »

zackforester

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Re: Dream Devourer ending links Magus to Guile?
« Reply #42 on: March 25, 2009, 03:40:42 pm »
How so? CTDS proves there are already two Magus's. The proof is in Time's Eclipse.

No no no... they are dead in the Home World time line, either from a failed attempt to kill Lavos, or from Dalton. Also, Kid stated that Lynx "took Lucca away" implying that he brought her somewhere, not necessarily killed her.

There are two Magus's  in Time's Eclipse which are seen to return to the world in the endings for CT. One Magus who appears to be trapped in the past and one with amnesia.

Also, Another World and Home World's timeline are exactly the same until 1010 AD when Serge is saved from drowning by Kid. Home World is the only timeline remaining after the Chrono Cross is used and anyone who died before the split isn't going to be restored by the Chrono Cross. The only way to escape the effects of the Chrono Cross are to exist in a pocket dimension like the End of Time when it's used.

The way they're talking on Opassa Beach at the end of the game leads me to believe that they won't be present Home World after Serge defeats the Time Devourer. Also in the letter to Kid, Lucca specifically refers to Magus as Janus, now she could be referring to the Magus that existed after Lavos was defeated as Janus, or she could be referring to the actual Janus which seems more plausible to me.

Anyway, I didn't write the document I posted. I'm not sure who did but I was just commenting on how Magus was in his mid 20s in Chrono Trigger and 20 years passed between then and Chrono Cross so he would be in his mid 40s, closer to 50 during the events of Cross. Also Guile is 26 during Cross, so based on ages it would be more likely that Guile is some incarnation of Janus rather than Magus.

zackforester

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Re: Dream Devourer ending links Magus to Guile?
« Reply #43 on: March 25, 2009, 03:44:53 pm »
Also on a side note, if you wait to examine the opening in Radical Dreamers in Chronopolis until after you have Kid back in your party, she says Serge and Magil were her "former mates". Talk about mind bending. That doesn't make any sense to me.

Zephira

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Re: Dream Devourer ending links Magus to Guile?
« Reply #44 on: March 25, 2009, 03:52:25 pm »
The biggest problem with that is we don't know what time Magus wound up in after he had his memory wiped. He could have been dropped just a couple years before the start of Chrono Cross for all we know.

I'm assuming the 'Magus who appears to be trapped in the past'  is the one we see flying around in 12000 BC in the original ending. This Magus somehow stumbles across the Time Devourer and becomes the amnesiac Magus. If amnesiac Magus becomes Guile, then there is still only one Magus.

By the way, Zack, you can use the Modify buttons on the upper right or lower right corner of your post instead of double posting.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2009, 04:06:11 pm by Zephira »