Author Topic: The Thread for Writers  (Read 40705 times)

Lennis

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Re: The Thread for Writers
« Reply #330 on: February 17, 2012, 03:30:33 am »
So, writers: When do you listen to music when you write, and when do you keep things quiet? What are the pros and cons for you? Does your music match the mood of the scenes you're writing, or is it purely incidental?

Sorry to resurrect a several-months-old post, but I haven't been in this thread for awhile and I thought it worth commenting.

I keep an extensive folder of Chrono-based music - the majority of which I found through the Compendium.  I've organized every track into "scenes", divided between the four books of my current project.  (Such as "Zeal", "Frog remembers the past", "Glenn reclaims his name", "Lair of the Reptites", etc.)  Whatever I listen to is directly related to the scene I'm writing, or outlining.

I typically listen to this music to put myself into the mood of the scene.  It also sometimes helps get me through minor writer's block.
But I keep the music off when I start editing a chapter.  With editing, I have to concentrate exclusively on writing mechanics to produce quality work, and music is a distraction from that process.  For that matter, so is eating.  :(


tushantin

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Re: The Thread for Writers
« Reply #331 on: June 11, 2012, 04:36:44 pm »
Question: Young Adults and poetic ballads. Do they mix?

Reason being, very few teenagers or children apparently care about literature (of any kind, including comic books), and even fewer care about ballads or poetry. But if mix contemporary comic-books / media with poetry, how well does it blend?

Thought

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Re: The Thread for Writers
« Reply #332 on: June 11, 2012, 08:27:56 pm »
Depends on how you mix. Generally, the trick to genre bending is to hold a party for both groups but don't tell one that they are invited. That is, write a young adult book that incorporates and utilizes stuff from ballads, but don't publicize that, or vice versa.

Everything can blend, if you are skilled enough. After that, you just have to know how to market it.

tushantin

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Re: The Thread for Writers
« Reply #333 on: June 12, 2012, 05:57:51 am »
Depends on how you mix. Generally, the trick to genre bending is to hold a party for both groups but don't tell one that they are invited. That is, write a young adult book that incorporates and utilizes stuff from ballads, but don't publicize that, or vice versa.

Everything can blend, if you are skilled enough. After that, you just have to know how to market it.
Okay, that sounds like a good idea. But what if the targeted readers (the young-adults) come across the ballads and aren't able to "get it", or aren't interested in it?

Poetry is usually new for them, despite the exposure to Dr Seuss (though his influence is nearly non-existent here). So how do you make this "interesting" for them? How do you touch their emotions? How do you peek their interest?
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 06:00:57 am by tushantin »

Chrono_Fusion

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Re: The Thread for Writers
« Reply #334 on: July 13, 2012, 04:43:28 am »
So, writers: When do you listen to music when you write, and when do you keep things quiet? What are the pros and cons for you? Does your music match the mood of the scenes you're writing, or is it purely incidental?

Sorry to resurrect a several-months-old post, but I haven't been in this thread for awhile and I thought it worth commenting.

I keep an extensive folder of Chrono-based music - the majority of which I found through the Compendium.  I've organized every track into "scenes", divided between the four books of my current project.  (Such as "Zeal", "Frog remembers the past", "Glenn reclaims his name", "Lair of the Reptites", etc.)  Whatever I listen to is directly related to the scene I'm writing, or outlining.

I typically listen to this music to put myself into the mood of the scene.  It also sometimes helps get me through minor writer's block.
But I keep the music off when I start editing a chapter.  With editing, I have to concentrate exclusively on writing mechanics to produce quality work, and music is a distraction from that process.  For that matter, so is eating.  :(



3 things that help me personally with writing. Smoking, music and having the TV on, preferabbly on a show that has almost nothing to do with what I am writing. the Nicotene clears my head and TV helps me take short mental breaks.

With Music I listen to stuff that I would want to hear in my movie (or movie adaptation of my work) when I am writing fanfics like Chrono Fusion or my Chrono Trigger movie I listen to various remixes and original tracks from said game, sometimes i will listen to the Dark City or Crow soundtrack because I would want Alex Proyas to direct my movie lol.

check out my Chrono Trigger script in submissions and fan fiction. Its a bit rough and defenatly needs some revision, but I want opinions on it.

Kodokami

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Re: The Thread for Writers
« Reply #335 on: July 15, 2012, 12:50:01 am »
Short story before my question: While playing Persona 3 Portable, an path can be taken to see a movie with the character Junpei. At first, he is all gung-ho about the new action film. Afterward, he is disappointed. The villain was given a relatable backstory, thus Junpei could empathize with the villain. The villian should be evil, in Junpei's eyes, or else the hero's actions become questionable.

Anyway, the scene made me think. I assume that most here would agree that giving depth to a character, including a villain, strengthens the story. Is there any case where having an absolutely evil character would not detract from the story? Would making said villain relatable improve the story instead?

FaustWolf

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Re: The Thread for Writers
« Reply #336 on: July 15, 2012, 11:27:22 am »
Wow Kodo, I actually want to pick up Persona 3 now, that's really cool!

I think, more basic than having a relatable villian, is to have a villain who has a point and an understandable motive. There's a fine line between those things. As an example, imagine the average Middle Eastern dictator. Iraq's Saddam Hussein was pretty much Satan incarnate, and I would hope many people wouldn't relate to him. But I seem to recall he'd cut to the chase every once in a while and explain one of his motives was to put a ruthless cork on the whole powder keg of Iraq so it wouldn't explode in sectarian violence. If I'm recalling correctly - and if it's an accurate description of his motive and not just an excuse -  then we can see his motive was partially and temporarily vindicated when the US popped that cork right off. That is a compelling, if unrelatable, villain to me. The villainy reaches back to some greater human failing, and it's that deeper tragedy that makes the story engaging.

Not that I can psychoanalyze a dude halfway around the world -- maybe Saddam Hussein was just a case of sheer megalomania. I should use a real-world example in a writing conversation with utmost care.

But on that note, I've come to realize that a story isn't necessarily lost for lacking a villain who has an understandable motive. Tolkien sure got away with it: what was Sauron but the model for all the crappy dark lord villains to come after, and perhaps inspired by many crappy dark lord villains to come before? Even the orcs and easterlings were nothing more than cardboard cannon fodder -- an absolute shame. I think what Tolkien did more effectively than other writers was choosing a darn good hero. A hobbit who appeals to our smallness and common-ness -- now that's a magical thing. If you've got a situation like that going for your story, maybe all you really need is an anvil and a hammer to sandwich your hero with. Whether you can relate to the anvil and hammer makes no difference then.

tl;dr: "Maybe it depends!"
« Last Edit: July 15, 2012, 11:34:16 am by FaustWolf »

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: The Thread for Writers
« Reply #337 on: July 15, 2012, 12:44:32 pm »
No evil person thinks they're evil. Their actions are justified (in their own mind), although we would agree otherwise. This ranges from the dictator to the street thug.

Hayao Miyazaki had a great way of showing his villains as not entirely evil. Each of us contains a bit of light and darkness, and we choose how to live. So it goes!

tushantin

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Re: The Thread for Writers
« Reply #338 on: July 15, 2012, 02:35:52 pm »
Kodo, I'll reply to your post, but thought I'd reply to the following first (my living room is noisy, and I don't have my own room; it's hard for me to focus here but it's too dark for me to go out in nature).

Not that I can psychoanalyze a dude halfway around the world -- maybe Saddam Hussein was just a case of sheer megalomania.

I can relate to your caution here, but I still think that you can and you should psychoanalyze real-world criminals and tyrants to actually make an effective villain for your story. But while you can't always relate to such characters personally, you can still get a good amount of information through sheer introspection and probing in both abstract and concrete perspectives to get a good view on why they do what they do. Why do you think Gaddafi went trigger-happy when the rebels were at his gates (even if non-threateningly)? Some would simply say he's "evil", some would say he's a "coward", some would say that he went "mad with power", and all of those can be true, yet the simplest explanations have the greatest depths.

Tolkien sure got away with it: what was Sauron but the model for all the crappy dark lord villains to come after, and perhaps inspired by many crappy dark lord villains to come before? Even the orcs and easterlings were nothing more than cardboard cannon fodder -- an absolute shame. I think what Tolkien did more effectively than other writers was choosing a darn good hero.

I guess you could say that, for most writers, the antagonist is merely a stepping stone for their beloved protagonist to climb. The protagonist represents the readers in these cases, and of course they would love a sense of triumph against forces they cannot comprehend. The "crappy Dark Lords" in such High Fantasy settings, especially Fafnir from Nibelung and Voldemort from Harry Potter, were deliberately lacking "good depth" because they represented the "Evil" that the protagonists needed to conquer, and the writers wanted the protagonists to have little to no remorse over it.

Of course, the explanations can vary between fictions, but that's just my two cents. After all, some other High Fantasy settings, such as the Arthurian legends do have complex villains like Modred and Ninveh, that seem to be highly developed. And in stories like "The Song of Ice and Fire", there simply is no specific "bad guy"; just a bunch of characters, all of whom corruptible, scheming and plotting against one another.

No evil person thinks they're evil. Their actions are justified (in their own mind), although we would agree otherwise. This ranges from the dictator to the street thug.
While that is true, it isn't the case for everyone in this world. Remember that reality is far stranger than what we can comprehend -- if you've grown believing in evil spirits, then the Real World has something EVEN MORE UNBELIEVABLE in store for you. And this means that we actually have people who are villainous and believe that they are!

But unlike in a bad fiction, they aren't really cardboard cut-outs -- I'd go so far as to say that these real-life villains scare me even more than those Voldemorts, Darth Vaders and Saurons. They know they might be the most wicked assholes a mother could conceive before drinking her own tears and crying, "What have I done", but what they do isn't just based on their own justifications either; many even believe that, if you can't be evil enough, then you couldn't go far either. Some even believe that human life is dispensable, and some merely see "profit" when they see their preys happy (a calm before the storm). Take it from Drug Lords who burn villages in order to get their business running, or even organ thieves who smuggle little children from homeless communities. These folks know they're far more evil than the version we see in cinemas, and they're proud of that fact.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2012, 02:37:36 pm by tushantin »

tushantin

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Re: The Thread for Writers
« Reply #339 on: July 15, 2012, 03:25:20 pm »
I assume that most here would agree that giving depth to a character, including a villain, strengthens the story. Is there any case where having an absolutely evil character would not detract from the story? Would making said villain relatable improve the story instead?
If there's one thing I've learned from writing and reading Fantasy stories, it's that when you make a powerful, fearful and abhorrent villain more depth, they become more "human", but eventually also the most difficult to "conquer". As I mentioned in the previous post, if the antagonist is seen as nothing more than a stepping stone for the protagonist to encounter, then that is exactly what they will be, and when the antagonist is grown and nurtured in the same way as the protagonist, that's where you'll end up having a truer conflict. Why? Because it's not a battle between two people anymore. It's a battle between two ideas, two beliefs, two concepts, and two sentiments. The viewers will end up relating to both, but the complexity lies in "which one the author chooses" and "Why". And when the author makes an incorrect decision, the reader will know (and might be disappointed). The again, I think the First Law trilogy plays with that idea, but I'd still say that arguing with yourself can often make an outstanding poetry.

Every character, element and plot initially begins as a "concept", and it depends how that concept evolves: a realistic character has a psychological depth, but a symbolic character is an epitome of a certain sentiment or element. A lot of times villains like "Voldemort" are simply an embodiment of an element like "Evil", but to preserve that element they tend to be restrictive or unimaginative (I never liked how Tom Riddle was "developed" in Harry Potter). Though I believe you can have a balance of both if you're creative enough. After all, as I mentioned in the previous post, you can have a good "absolute evil" character and have it developed, but that would require an in-depth study of the human mind and how it corrupts in the way it does. It's not just the justifications behind it, but the slight "push" of the direction of their thinking.

The question is, how do you do it? How does it contribute to, relate to, or affect the theme or premise of your story? When I created the villain of my current novel, I simply wanted to experiment with a Mary Sue in a villain's role, because I believed that a "too perfect" character would make an impossible quest for the protagonist, hence making his victory "bigger". Eventually, I began to see that villain as less Mary Sue and more "human", which opened my curiosity towards it just as much as I am towards real people, and I began to dig deeper into the potential it had. The character, right now, is even more developed than the protagonist himself and there's a likely chance the readers would prefer this one over the hero (just as CE fans picked KZ over Crono), giving the villain a blank check to do as he likes. And guess what? It only makes that much more difficult for the protagonist to conquer -- all alone, nearly nobody supports him, but he believes he's in the right path.

(I think I wanted to say more, but hell, I lost my focus and memory...)

Thought

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Re: The Thread for Writers
« Reply #340 on: September 17, 2012, 02:18:09 pm »
This is a continuation of a discussion that began in the "Stuff you hate" thread.

We are only caretakers of that which is better than us.

Wouldn't that make it all the more important to specifically practice and develop one's self so as to be a better, more capable caretaker?

Consider Cecilia Gimenez. She was passionate about caring for "that which is better" than herself. Aaaaaand she made a mess of Elias Garcia Martinez's Ecce Homo by not first ensuring she had the skills to care for it.

Though that said, I would disagree that ideas are really that significant. It's rather easy to come up with new ideas, better ideas. Indeed, the more one writes, the more one practices being creative, the easier it is, and the finer one's product. The thoughts we think now are thin when compared to those we might think tomorrow.

I'm not sure that's the greatest of analogies.  Making sure every step is perfect would be counterproductive, as only the first 20 seconds worth of steps is worth remembering for purposes of technique.  The rest is just repetition and knowing yourself well enough to know what pace you should maintain.  Besides, I would argue that the way you breathe is much more important than the way you run, but I'm just being annoying here.

Focusing on breathing might be good, but that also won’t make someone be able to run a 6 minute mile. The various techniques involved might be worthwhile, but again, none of them will make someone able to run a 6 minute mile. The only thing that can even get them close is to start running miles.

The rub is, that has always been true for everything ever. Want to be a good baker? Then bake! Want to be a good fencer? Fence! Want to be a good carpenter? Carpent!

There are hordes of techniques that are useful, but one can only learn them by doing, and learning the techniques separate from practicing still won’t make someone be a master at their craft. Overnight successes are backed up by decades of work.

Each genre has a set of rules that are difficult to break away from.  Readers are fickle and expect certain things, and going against the grain of their expectations can be dangerous.

Ah, this gets onto the topic of making and breaking promises to the reader. If I write an epic fantasy, then I am making a promise to the reader that they'll get an epic fantasy. If I give then a supernatural romance story with sparkly vampires instead, I've broken the promise, and readers have a justifiable reason to be upset. Of course, if I write an epic fantasy, put a really cool and very in-genre element early in the book in passing, but then never return to it, I'm breaking a different kind of promise (the implied promise that the cool thing will get more screen time later).

But I was mostly talking about my own preferences. I think I want to write fantasy (probably not exclusively epic fantasy), but I might find that I am better or enjoy writing a different genre more. And, of course, what I learn from one genre I can always try to take to another (POV descriptions setting a general tone/mood of the book is something that horror does extremely well: could well take a lesson from that and move it into a different genre).

I'm not sure what you mean by "consistent writing sessions".  I'm guessing you mean a series of sessions where I just write things down without thinking about it too much.  If so, I'll concede I did that very little, and usually only as part of a formal assignment in creative writing class.  I got nothing out of such exercises except a sore hand, when I was able to write anything at all.  It's just not in my nature to take shots in the dark on paper.

By your own account you didn't really give it a fair shake, so I think you're not being fair to yourself to say what is and isn't in your nature.

I'd say you need to have a specific time to write, even if only a half hour, and that you stick to that every day for a few months. Give it your best effort. And, if after a quarter of a year you still haven't improved, both in the quality of your writing and in the ease of writing, then, well, you'll have given it a fair shot. But you will improve (because you can't really practice in earnest without getting better), so there's no need to worry about that.

To give some context, I started this myself in mid January. It took until March before I really got into any kind of groove, and even then, I was only managing around 300 words for every hour or two of writing. By late July/early August, I was managing 1000 words an hour, all of it far better than what I had written in March. I don't expect to increase my writing rate more than that (500-1000 words an hours seems on par for professional writers). But since then, my writings still been improving.

Am I a different writer and do I have a different process? Yes. But we're still both humans: certain constants don't change. Consistent practice producing improvements is one of those.

If you need an outline, have an outline while you write. Don't worry about speed: 300 words an hour might be high for you, but a week of even just writing 10 words an hour is better than a week of no writing. And if you can't write without thinking first, that's fine: most professional authors can type between 3600 and 5400 words an hour, but write at a speed of between 500 and 1000 an hour. That alone indicates that everyone is writing while thinking.

I should probably mention in passing that part of the reason I recommended reading the comments is that a surprisingly high percentage of the commentors are successful published authors. So that thread isn't just one editor's discussion of slush, but that of several industry professionals.

Yup. Every name I recognized was quite exciting. Just, 900 comments. Damn, that's a lot.

Thought

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Re: The Thread for Writers
« Reply #341 on: October 07, 2012, 01:13:47 am »
Just thought I'd throw down the gauntlet by saying that I'll be doing NaNoWriMo this year. Indeed, I am working on pre-writing for it right now (figuring out plot, characters, etc). I think I have Boo on board as well. Any other writer's willing to take up the challenge?

Mr Bekkler

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Re: The Thread for Writers
« Reply #342 on: October 07, 2012, 03:43:16 am »
Possibly something I'd be interested in, what do you have to do?

Thought

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Re: The Thread for Writers
« Reply #343 on: October 07, 2012, 03:51:30 am »
Write a novel in a month. Specifically, November. And by novel, they mean 50,000 words (for reference, the first Harry Potter book was 75k), not necessary from the start of a book to the end of a book. And by write they mean you can't start writing the book before hand, but you can do pre-writing (like outlining, research, that sort of thing). This does generally mean that you have to write 1700 words a day, every day.

For more information, check out: http://www.nanowrimo.org/

tushantin

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Re: The Thread for Writers
« Reply #344 on: October 07, 2012, 09:25:22 am »
This will be my first NaNoWriMo this year! :D