Who is better, Magil or Guile?

[Dark Serge]

Alright take the Scouters for example. Magus is completely useless there because he only has all enemies magic attacks. He just stinks in combat, melee as well, compared to the other characters. And that can't be justified by "but Dark Matter does alot of dmg and is cool and he has all elements". Compared to the variety of attacks of all the other characters, Magus's is just laughable. He was underdeveloped.

Who says he really did it so they could bring back their friend? Schala was there too, and maybe he planned to use the Time Egg for his own goals first. But in the end it didn't work out.

"For the greater good" doesn't help the character of Magus. If we're gonna look at how developed a character is, "they have the same goal" and "for the greater good" doesn't work. It's his reasons behind it that matter.

@ Above: Dark Serge is dark, but not at all emo. Actually, he's pretty cheerful, and I laughed my ass off at the CC Does Cheers ending. He's dark, but he's a cool dark character, not like Magus.

[alfadorredux]

Dark Serge, you've admitted that your other characters are always at a much higher level than Magus starts at by the time you have a chance to recruit him, so I doubt you've ever given him a fair trial as a melee fighter. If the levels are equivalent, he's about on a level with Frog for physical attacks, and miles ahead of Lucca and Marle in all categories. And by the time he hits Level **, all of his stats except Evade (where he loses to Ayla) are as good as or better than everyone else's. His worst problems are that the Doom Sickle is much weaker than Crono's Rainbow or the second-level Masamune, and he takes longer to max out Stamina than the other heavy fighters (however, he maxes out MagDef much faster, which can be useful).

Yes, his magic attacks hit all enemies. So do almost all the other single techs worth having (the only exception I can think of offhand is Ayla's Triple Kick, although there may be one or two more that I'm forgetting), which makes that...pretty insignificant, to my mind.

And...cheerful evil characters disturb me. If you're capable of being happy and nasty, then you're beyond redemption. Magus isn't that.  And he's a strong, independent, confident, intelligent person: all attractive traits.

Pardon me for saying so, but your objections against Magus seem to boil down to, "I don't like that kind of character, and the point in the story at which he becomes recruitable doesn't suit my playing style, so therefore, he sucks, and I'm tired of hearing other people say that he's all that, so I'm going to take him (and them) down a peg." I'm okay with you not liking Magus, but I don't think the conclusions you draw are justified.

[Dark Serge]

Dark Serge, you've admitted that your other characters are always at a much higher level than Magus starts at by the time you have a chance to recruit him, so I doubt you've ever given him a fair trial as a melee fighter. If the levels are equivalent, he's about on a level with Frog for physical attacks, and miles ahead of Lucca and Marle in all categories. And by the time he hits Level **, all of his stats except Evade (where he loses to Ayla) are as good as or better than everyone else's. His worst problems are that the Doom Sickle is much weaker than Crono's Rainbow or the second-level Masamune, and he takes longer to max out Stamina than the other heavy fighters (however, he maxes out MagDef much faster, which can be useful).

Yes, his magic attacks hit all enemies. So do almost all the other single techs worth having (the only exception I can think of offhand is Ayla's Triple Kick, although there may be one or two more that I'm forgetting), which makes that...pretty insignificant, to my mind.

And...cheerful evil characters disturb me. If you're capable of being happy and nasty, then you're beyond redemption. Magus isn't that.  And he's a strong, independent, confident, intelligent person: all attractive traits.

Pardon me for saying so, but your objections against Magus seem to boil down to, "I don't like that kind of character, and the point in the story at which he becomes recruitable doesn't suit my playing style, so therefore, he sucks, and I'm tired of hearing other people say that he's all that, so I'm going to take him (and them) down a peg." I'm okay with you not liking Magus, but I don't think the conclusions you draw are justified.

Melee he beats Marle and Lucca, sure, but he's nothing compared to Glenn with Masamune II. Him not having any strong weapons as strong as the others is also lazy writing on Square's part, and it can't be used to justify Magus' uselessness in battle.

Dark Serge is cheerful because he is evil. Magus is not evil. Big difference there, mate.

My objection against Magus is that he doesn't develop at all. He starts out as an emo who despises all life, and he ends up as one. All the other characters at least have a little thing they develop on, but this guy just doesn't. He's a very complex character, and they could have done so much with him, but they just missed their chance completely.

Anyway, let's just agree to disagree, since this ain't going anywhere. The character doesn't grow, and he doesn't have a lot of combat abilities, both of which are the result of lazy writing. And lazy writing is something I do not stand for.

[V_Translanka]

Alright take the Scouters for example. Magus is completely useless there because he only has all enemies magic attacks.

The Scouters are pretty weak normal monsters though...The only times they're really any trouble at all is when you have to fight all 3 types at the same time (which only happens like 2 or 3 times in-game)...and even then, if you kill all of one type, which you can do with Magus' level 2 Magics (which are more powerful than the other characters' versions), they don't pose much of a threat (especially taking in Magus' high M. Def as alfadorredux noted and/or his Barrier Tech)...or you could always take them out with physicals just as easy...

He just stinks in combat, melee as well, compared to the other characters.

His worst problems are that the Doom Sickle is much weaker than Crono's Rainbow or the second-level Masamune

Melee he beats Marle and Lucca, sure, but he's nothing compared to Glenn with Masamune II. Him not having any strong weapons as strong as the others is also lazy writing on Square's part, and it can't be used to justify Magus' uselessness in battle.

Hello Dreamreaper...! Even the Judgement Scythe is a nice bonus, really. I think Magus also has a higher critical hit rate than Frog (it's practically a necessity to equip the Hero's Badge, but the Champion's Badge greatly increases Frog's own usefulness)...Shadowplume Cape has the best Def of all of the Armors outside of the Elemental Aegis (Lucca only) and the Prism Dresses (girls only) and includes Auto-Barrier...

Who says he really did it so they could bring back their friend?

Well, he sorta does when he asks to join you...

I said the fool was dead.
I did not say his death could not be undone.
Gaspar, the Guru of Time, knows the way to restore those streams of time that have been diverted from their proper courses.

(the CTDS version was the most on-hand...I should look for the retranslated version, really)

Schala was there too, and maybe he planned to use the Time Egg for his own goals first. But in the end it didn't work out.

That's a fairly big maybe based on...? It certainly helps your argument though. Neat.

"For the greater good" doesn't help the character of Magus. If we're gonna look at how developed a character is, "they have the same goal" and "for the greater good" doesn't work. It's his reasons behind it that matter.

Well then wouldn't Frog be just as big a douche as you seem to think Magus is since his whole quest boils down to the same thing: revenge? While intentions ARE important, actions, the consequences of ones actions and what you do with those in the end are just as (if not moreso) important.

As for Dark Serge as a character (which I don't think should have been started to be discussed in the first place, it seemed like an unnecessary & poor non-argument that was just trying to jab the other poster's SN and was also off-topic)...I don't see him as any different than Lynx...who isn't any different than FATE (& sorta Wazuki)...mostly insane (Kefka did it better lol), but with some of the game's better quotes.

Ugh...so many quotes...things moving in circles...I think Ramsus just talked about this somewhere because I remember blushing thinking of how many times I was the cause or instigator of such...

[alfadorredux]

Magus' character doesn't develop because character development isn't an end in itself; character dynamism is the end, and it can be acheived by more than one method. In Magus' case, the game's developers used character revelation to acheive dynamism: Magus himself doesn't change, but the player's perception of him does. From a storytelling point of view, it's an unusual but legitimate choice.

And, judging from my current level of verbosity, I should go burn my pedant hat again.

[leena_zeal]

My objection against Magus is that he doesn't develop at all. He starts out as an emo who despises all life, and he ends up as one. All the other characters at least have a little thing they develop on, but this guy just doesn't. He's a very complex character, and they could have done so much with him, but they just missed their chance completely.

Well... I always thought of Magus as the dude with the most marked development in CT. We see the little brat turn into the warlord of the Mystics (through bits and pieces of his history, but still), and then turn into one of the seven heroes who stop Lavos. I percieved that as character development from the first time I played through the game (I might be wrong).

And I always thought of him as a well balanced, strong fighter (both physically and magically). Although it is a shame that he doesn't learn double techs, his triple tech with Marle and Lucca is one of my favorites, and his magic barrier was also a great contribution in boss fights (even against Lavos).

Still, you're entitled to your opinion.... Of course I hate you for it, you've called him "emo" so many times in the forums that now I can't get the image of him covering half his face with his blue hair, cut marks underneath the gloves and an awful kinda-like-MCR background theme... damn you!  

[Dark Serge]

My objection against Magus is that he doesn't develop at all. He starts out as an emo who despises all life, and he ends up as one. All the other characters at least have a little thing they develop on, but this guy just doesn't. He's a very complex character, and they could have done so much with him, but they just missed their chance completely.

Well... I always thought of Magus as the dude with the most marked development in CT. We see the little brat turn into the warlord of the Mystics (through bits and pieces of his history, but still), and then turn into one of the seven heroes who stop Lavos. I percieved that as character development from the first time I played through the game (I might be wrong).

And I always thought of him as a well balanced, strong fighter (both physically and magically). Although it is a shame that he doesn't learn double techs, his triple tech with Marle and Lucca is one of my favorites, and his magic barrier was also a great contribution in boss fights (even against Lavos).

Still, you're entitled to your opinion.... Of course I hate you for it, you've called him "emo" so many times in the forums that now I can't get the image of him covering half his face with his blue hair, cut marks underneath the gloves and an awful kinda-like-MCR background theme... damn you!  

Actually that's not correct, since we don't see that development in the game. We just learn (way later) that Magus is in fact that boy, Janus. And since the development stops here, he still doesn't have any development in the game. My perception of him didn't change, and it will not change. It changed when he became Magil, but he's so different from Magus, that I'm on the verge of saying they're different people altogether.

Anyway, it's pointless to continue. I explained why I don't like Magus and that's really all I wanted to achieve. You have got some valid arguments about his combat usefulness, especially since the CT:DS retcon, but alright. I won't convince you and you won't convince me.

Back to the topic now then, shall we? Magil or Guile, who's better.

[Mr Bekkler]

As for Dark Serge as a character (which I don't think should have been started to be discussed in the first place, it seemed like an unnecessary & poor non-argument that was just trying to jab the other poster's SN and was also off-topic)...I don't see him as any different than Lynx...who isn't any different than FATE (& sorta Wazuki)...mostly insane (Kefka did it better lol), but with some of the game's better quotes.

I'm just saying, if you're gonna say anything specific is bad, check to see that you can't prove your point wrong with something that fits the criteria but you find to be "good".

For instance, I think Guile looks stupid. I don't have a problem with his lack of character development. Norstein Bekkler, on the other hand, also has no character development, but I think he looks cool. If I had a problem with lack of development, that would mean Bekkler would be pretty lame, as well as almost every NPC and enemy in both (all three) games.

And "emo" is an adjective. Not a verb, and only a noun when you're talking about it as a genre. A person can not be "an emo". Magus isn't emo. He's a fucking wizard who leads a war with monsters against all humans, and tries to save his sister from a giant alien. If anything, he's fucking metal.

[leena_zeal]

Magus isn't emo. He's a fucking wizard who leads a war with monsters against all humans, and tries to save his sister from a giant alien. If anything, he's fucking metal.

Thanks for that, the "emo" mental picture got swept away 

[Dark Serge]

As for Dark Serge as a character (which I don't think should have been started to be discussed in the first place, it seemed like an unnecessary & poor non-argument that was just trying to jab the other poster's SN and was also off-topic)...I don't see him as any different than Lynx...who isn't any different than FATE (& sorta Wazuki)...mostly insane (Kefka did it better lol), but with some of the game's better quotes.

I'm just saying, if you're gonna say anything specific is bad, check to see that you can't prove your point wrong with something that fits the criteria but you find to be "good".

For instance, I think Guile looks stupid. I don't have a problem with his lack of character development. Norstein Bekkler, on the other hand, also has no character development, but I think he looks cool. If I had a problem with lack of development, that would mean Bekkler would be pretty lame, as well as almost every NPC and enemy in both (all three) games.

And "emo" is an adjective. Not a verb, and only a noun when you're talking about it as a genre. A person can not be "an emo". Magus isn't emo. He's a fucking wizard who leads a war with monsters against all humans, and tries to save his sister from a giant alien. If anything, he's fucking metal.

Uhh yeah, with emo I mean person who hates life and constantly talks about how shitty everything is and how he'll laugh if death finally comes for him.

So who's better, Magil or Guile?

[Mr Bekkler]

Magil is better, he's ninja magus. Guile just looks stupid.  Eh?

[leena_zeal]

Magil.
Shadow lurkers always have the upperhand on fruity wand wielders.
Not that I don't think Guile was a good character or anything, I just think that if you threw them in the ring togheter Magil would kick his ass (in a "Celebrity Deathmatch" sort of battle  )

[utunnels]

Guile could be awesome, if he had back stories. *shrug