Author Topic: So... Do you dream?  (Read 6568 times)

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: So... Do you dream?
« Reply #60 on: April 19, 2009, 12:41:29 pm »
See, that seems the obvious choice... But I figured someone like chrono eric might know a lot more.

chrono eric

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Re: So... Do you dream?
« Reply #61 on: April 19, 2009, 04:50:18 pm »
So... I need to ask ya'll a question.

What drugs (legal or illegal) out there can cause one to have a hallucination that one wouldn't really be able to tell it apart from a dream?  As if, recalling the previous' night's adventures one would have trouble knowing what was real and what wasn't?  Not a hallucination per se, but moreso a very realistic dream.

Are you asking if there is a chemical out there that influences dreams in such a way to make one think they were real, or a chemical that makes one hallucinate in such a way to make one think it is real / indistinguishable from a dream?

If the latter, then the deliriants, such as Datura stramonium, have an effect similar to the one you are asking about. Datura is legal as far as I know. This plant has some common names that you may have heard of - Jimson weed, loco weed, angels/devils trumpet. It is a common plant in the Nightshade family. Native Americans from central America have used this plant in religious ceremonies, as you might imagine, but it is extremely, extremely dangerous to do. The indians no doubt had the exact safe dosage to take down, because they used it mainly in vision quest / coming of age ceremonies that often lasted for days on end.

In the United States there was a particularly famous use of Datura during Bacon's Rebellion, where the British soldiers that were attempting to suppress it were drugged with Datura and went insane for over a week. I don't remember the specifics, so I don't know if they were deliberately drugged with it or if they inadvertently ate it themselves.

The effects of deliriants are qualitatively different than the effects of hallucinogenics. Deliriants cause one to hallucinate vivid images that are indistinguishable from reality, whereas hallucinogenics cause one to experience perceived alterations / distortions of reality. The reason why this plant (and most other deliriants) is so dangerous to ingest is because it contains atropine, scopolamine, and hyoscyamine - all anticholingergic chemicals that block acetylcholine in the central and peripheral nervous system. As one might imagine, there are a host of deadly side effects at high dosages including cardiac and pulmonary failure. Contrast this with the primary mode of action for traditional tryptamine / phenethylamine psychedelics, which only bind reversibly and transiently to serotonin receptors in relatively safe low dosages.

I myself have never attempted a journey on Datura. But a close friend of mine has. He spent 3 days experiencing life in a vivid, dream-like delirium during which time he could not distinguish reality from hallucinations. He saw dead relatives walking around and people that weren't there. He had a discussion with a man in an elevator only to turn around and find him gone. He saw potted plants sitting in the middle of streets and walked to avoid them. And after the first day he experienced an intense sickness, constant myoclonic jerks while fully awake, and nausea no doubt related to cardiovascular side effects. After that day, he experienced bouts of profound nausea and was on anti-nausea medication for six months. This persisted periodically and I suspect it was related to acetylcholine synapses in his brain attempting to regain homeostasis.

In summation, I would not recommend this. On Salvia, or Ayahuasca, you also have no idea that you are hallucinating because you are immersed in another world entirely. But these are short-lived and safe experiences, and the individual is typically immobilized for them. Datura is dangerous to yourself and to others.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2009, 04:54:51 pm by chrono eric »

FaustWolf

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Re: So... Do you dream?
« Reply #62 on: April 19, 2009, 05:39:28 pm »
Quote from: chrono eric
In summation, I would not recommend this.
As a followup to what you described in the previous paragraph, that is possibly the greatest statement of the decade.

What would the scientific explanation for those kind of experiences be? Is it basically induced schizophrenia? Lack of oxygen getting to the brain?

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: So... Do you dream?
« Reply #63 on: April 19, 2009, 05:45:03 pm »
Quote
Deliriants cause one to hallucinate vivid images that are indistinguishable from reality.

That's what I wanted.  Essentially I'm writing a story about a man who meets a person under the influence of some distortion (which I guess is going to be a deliriant).  At first he thinks it really happened, only to find out that said person was a figment of his imagination.  Awesome.  Thanks!

chrono eric

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Re: So... Do you dream?
« Reply #64 on: April 19, 2009, 07:22:23 pm »
What would the scientific explanation for those kind of experiences be? Is it basically induced schizophrenia? Lack of oxygen getting to the brain?

The experiences for entheogens/deliriants/psychedelics all seem to derive simply from an alteration of electrical activity produced by the chemicals binding to their respective neurotransmitter receptors at neuron synapses in the central nervous system. Traditional tryptamine entheogens (LSD, psilocin) are 5HT serotonin receptor agonists. They bind reversibly to these receptors, instead of serotonin, altering electrical activity in certain regions of the brain and thus the normal processing capabilities of the brain. When this happens in the visual cortex, visual hallucinations occur. The auditory cortex produces auditory hallucinations, etc. Alterations in the frontal lobe produce the profound thought processes / changes in conscious awareness.

In the case of dimethyltrpytamine / dreaming, DMT seems to be produced and regulated in the pineal gland and is associated with melatonin and circadian rhythm somehow. It has been hypothesized (though much research still needs to be done) that DMT regulates the visual / auditory / immersive world of dreaming. When smoked or ingested with a monoamine oxidase inhibitor, DMT immerses an individual in a completely different environment, often producing profound visions / encounters that can be compared to a dreamlike state, although the individual is fully conscious and the state feels much more real than a dream.

In the case of Salvia / Salvinorin A, it binds to kappa-opioid receptors in the CNS, although this is a novel approach that nature has chosen to produce an entheogenic experience in animals that consume the plant and it was completely unknown to science until a decade ago or so. It is unclear how this entheogen and kappa-opioid receptors in general produce the profound experiences associated with a Salvia trip.

In the case of Datura stramonium, alterations of electrical activity derived from cholinergic synapses in the CNS and particularly the visual cortex produce the surreal hallucinations. Since acetylcholine serves several important uses in other organ systems of the body, most notably cardiac and skeletal muscle control, this is what causes the potentially deadly side effects of Datura compared to other entheogens, which are typically harmless with minimal side effects.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2009, 07:24:26 pm by chrono eric »

FaustWolf

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Re: So... Do you dream?
« Reply #65 on: April 19, 2009, 07:32:15 pm »
Awesome chrono eric, you're like a leading authority on this kind of thing. The fact that I actually understand 75% of what you're saying proves that my Liberal Arts education was worth the investment.

I have a morbid fascination with these kind of things, probably for the same reason Boo does: writing material!! :D But to actually go through an experience like Datura must be unimaginably horrific.

chrono eric

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Re: So... Do you dream?
« Reply #66 on: April 19, 2009, 07:48:44 pm »
Awesome chrono eric, you're like a leading authority on this kind of thing. The fact that I actually understand 75% of what you're saying proves that my Liberal Arts education was worth the investment.

I have a morbid fascination with these kind of things, probably for the same reason Boo does: writing material!! :D But to actually go through an experience like Datura must be unimaginably horrific.

Heh, thanks. I tried to make the explanation as general as possible. I tell people to think of the brain as a living computer, and the neurons and the connections between them as living code. By altering electrical activity one temporarily rewrites that code, causing the brain to process information incorrectly. This (usually) returns to normal after the influence of the chemical has left the body.

It can be horrific, yes, but because much of the hallucinations are influenced somehow by the subconscious mind they can offer great learning experiences as well. Which is why these things have traditionally been used as religious sacraments. It is my opinion that the more intense and difficult the experience, the more one can learn about their self and their place in the universe. I can't imagine the hell my buddy went through tripping on Datura for days and having lasting side effects for months, but I can personally attest that the hell of a 15 minute 40x Salvia trip is well worth the subjective / consciousness altering experience that one undergoes during that time. And the more popular entheogens such as Psilocybe mushrooms are hardly hellish at all if done correctly and in a reasonable dosage. Most of the experiences can actually be quite safe, beautiful, and profound.

And technically, all of us may be "tripping" on DMT in a way every time we fall asleep and dream. I've had many good dreams, but many bad ones as well. The same can be said for entheogenic trips - they go either way.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2009, 07:50:15 pm by chrono eric »

Asafigow

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Re: So... Do you dream?
« Reply #67 on: April 20, 2009, 10:56:13 pm »
What the heck? Why is it that all you people do is talk about using drugs to create dreams? Why not do it the old fashioned way and omprove your pshyci?

chrono eric

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Re: So... Do you dream?
« Reply #68 on: April 21, 2009, 02:43:41 am »
I believe the discussion got sidetracked into talk of entheogens because several are known to influence dreaming - the most famous of which is dimethyltryptamine which likely regulates dreaming naturally in the human body. Which is a particularly fascinating concept, because it suggests that the brain deliberately uses an endogenous psychotropic chemical to cause an altered state of consciousness every night during sleep. This opens the door for several vital questions, such as: Why does the brain do this? And what significance do dreams truly have? Presumably dreaming is of evolutionary adaptive significance, and it somehow increases fitness in the organisms that possess this ability. So then how does this process possibly increase fitness?

And the final, amazing observation/side track is that nearly all multicellular life, including plants and every animal on the planet (as far as we know) produces dimethyltryptamine in their bodies. This is likely because it is simple to produce biochemically from the amino acid tryptophan. This raises an important question: Since DMT is produced naturally in presumably every animal species, and since it is produced in a primitive part of the brain that has prime importance in circadian rhythm, then do all animals that have this system dream? This seems to suggest that even the most primitive of animals can dream in a way. And this begs the question of why is it necessary, or of adaptive significance, for even simplistic brains to alter their conscious state every night?

But I digress.  :D

Mr Bekkler

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Re: So... Do you dream?
« Reply #69 on: April 22, 2009, 12:31:29 am »
What the heck? Why is it that all you people do is talk about using drugs to create dreams? Why not do it the old fashioned way and omprove your pshyci?

That's not all we talk about. It's just interesting because not many people talk about it at all. Personally, I like daydreams better than REM dreams or any kind of "drug" experience. But I daydream about the most mundane things, I won't list them here. Cable bills and stuff. Boring.

But extradimensional universes? That's an awesome concept, and even in line with the Chrono theme.  :)

Delta Dragon

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Re: So... Do you dream?
« Reply #70 on: April 23, 2009, 01:19:51 am »
I don't think I've ever day dreamed. 

teaflower

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Re: So... Do you dream?
« Reply #71 on: April 23, 2009, 12:48:42 pm »
Day dreaming is so much fun. I don't think I've ever really done it, but I think I've gotten close. To the point that I sit in my math class and I'm thinking of a story, when suddenly... WHOA. How did I get here?! How... how did she change the topic so fast?! What is that formula?! AGH!

I swear, I had three dreams last night. One was freaky (too freaky to discuss here, as it's somewhat personal), the second was about my crazy ass sister who decided she wanted to die and ran off into the rain to do so and my attempts to make her at least put on her coat while doing so (I think she was actually still wearing the coat when that happened), and the third featured a really tall guy who decided he needed to crash at my place while he figured out a party. He slept in a hammocky thing where my computer is.

I can get where I got these dreams, though. Not the freaky one, but... yesterday it was raining and I was very distraught. And also yesterday, I was talking to my really tall friend and he mentioned a party.

I also dreamt about Meko, a character from a story I recently started writing. Instead of being batshit insane, he was actually... not crazy. Strange, considering he's a serial killer who once attempted suicide shortly after surviving a robbery.

HyperNerd

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Re: So... Do you dream?
« Reply #72 on: April 23, 2009, 07:53:54 pm »
I had a dream I was a serial killer.
I'm pretty sure that's a bad omen...

Asafigow

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Re: So... Do you dream?
« Reply #73 on: April 23, 2009, 08:03:15 pm »
Don't worry Nerd. As far as dreams go, that could mean you're going to eat a lot of serial cereal.

chrono eric

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Re: So... Do you dream?
« Reply #74 on: April 23, 2009, 08:11:18 pm »
I had a craaaazy weird dream last night. And it was incredibly realistic too. :shock:

I dreamed that I had some sort of fatal disease that was terminal and would soon kill me. It also produced the symptom of making me not be able to think clearly - perhaps it was a brain tumor of some kind, I don't remember specifically from the dream. Regardless, it was an extremely realistic dream. I was in a house gathered with a group of people, like a support group, that had similar illnesses and we decided (almost cult-like) that if we committed suicide we would be reborn disease-free Battlestar Galactica style. Weird. So I went ahead and committed suicide in my dream and then I reawoke immediately after that in a shopping mall. My head felt crystal clear, it literally felt that way in the dream. A doctor of some kind was standing above me and he pronounced me cured of the mysterious illness. I felt elated, like I had been given a second chance at life, and then I woke up.

I have no idea what to make of that dream. It was maybe the weirdest dream I've ever had in my entire life now that I think about it.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2009, 08:14:58 pm by chrono eric »