Ocean Palace Incident, Magus, Gurus, and the Epoch (TTI, or is it?)

[Prisoner of Time]

This will be my first post here but I have read various threads and articles on the Compendium for a few years.  I am finding some issues with the theory of TTI as it relates to the Ocean Palace incident in the Keystone timelines.  As you know, in the Lavos timeline, absent of any action by the Crono team, Janus and the three Guru's are shipped into the future during the Ocean Palace disaster.  They show up in their respective era's, simple.

As the Crono team continue to travel through time they eventually challenge Magus and win, interrupting his summon spell for Lavos, sending the Crono team to 65M BC and Magus to 12,000 BC. (maybe slightly earlier but it is irrelevant)  The important piece of info is that Magus appears from the time gate before the Ocean Palace incident.

Magus, posing as a prophet, convinces Queen Zeal to dispose of the 3 gurus.  (Melchior is on Mt. Woe obviously, though there is no concrete evidence of the whereabouts of Belthasar or Gaspar)

Since the gurus are not present in the Ocean Palace, they are not sent into the future.  Janus may or may not be there since he is not detained but it is irrelevant because the Magus that is sent back to 12,000 BC will emerge from the gate no matter what happens to the Janus from that point on.

I don't believe that TTI applies to the Guru's since they are traveling into the future from a point in a time line that no longer exists.  If they are prevented from traveling into the future because of a time traveler other than themselves, (Magus) then they will not emerge from the gates in the new time line.

*** It is debatable whether Janus even would emerge in 5** AD.  If he did, it would be because he was sent there in the new Ocean Palace incident (before Crono team interfered but after Magus arrived in 12,000 BC and had the guru's detained).  That Janus WOULD show up in 600 AD and likely have lived nearly identical to the way Magus did, but when summoning Lavos and being interrupted by the Crono team would vanish into the DBT, likely along with that version of the Crono team so that Magus could appear in 12,000 BC.  If he did not appear in 5**AD he was not in the Ocean Palace incident.  Then, in 600 AD, the world would have been completely different.  Cyrus would be alive, Glenn would not be Frog, even though Frog would still emerge from the gate in 65M BC with the Crono team because of TTI, and Guardia would have likely had much less wartime hardship from the Mystics.

Back to the Gurus.  When Crono team initially warps to 12,000 BC from 65M BC to a point after Magus arrives they are banished from the age via Schala's seal on the gate.  When they travelled into the future of the newer time line there would be no Belthasar, and consequently, no Epoch.  Melchior would not exist in the new time line in 1000 AD but is irrelevant to the Epoch part of the quest.  Gaspar MAY be at the End of Time since that is not part of any particular time line and time runs perpendicular to the time lines.

I do have a theory of how the Guru's WOULD appear regardless of changes to a time line based upon pocket dimension theory.  Since they are gated away during the original Ocean Palace Incident while inside Lavos's pocket dimension, and since that pocket dimension exists for all time that Lavos does on the planet, perhaps they are simply exiting the pocket dimension at specific points in time, regardless of the time line.  The only problem lies beyond the game of Chrono Trigger and into Chrono Cross.  After Lavos is defeated by the Crono Team in 1999, Lavos and his pocket dimension cease to exist after that point in time so Belthasar would not appear in 2300, so no Chronopolis, no time crash, no Neo-Epoch, ect.

I look forward to input from anyone who wishes to give it.

[Acacia Sgt]

You are forgetting TB (Time Bastard), which is the action that claims the character to the DBT the moment it's other self time traveled, which prevents doubles.

According to the Earthbound elder, Janus and Melchior were swallowed by a black gate during the incident. This could be TB in effect. If so, same thing happened to the other two Gurus wherever they would be at the time. And since TTI makes the four appear regardless on their destinations (however, only knowing the events of the original time line, except Gaspar of course), whole thing works out.

Definetly, Janus has to appear in 5XX AD, considering the way 600 AD is after the events. Cyrus still death, and what seals the deal, The Mystic Trio still knows Magus.

[FaustWolf]

Ninja'd by Acacia Sgt on this, but here goes anyway...

Welcome to the Compendium, Prisoner! Have you looked up the theoretical "Time Bastard" phenomenon in the Compendium encyclopedia yet? Though I think that's described alongside TTI, so you may be familiar with it already.

According to the present prevailing theory (Time Bastard), or at least how I interpret it, all Gate openings are preserved across dimensions. Let's say Robo steps into the Millennial Fair gate during the good ending and ends up in Good 2300AD. All's well. Now let's say Robo angers a uber scientist, who sends a Ninja Panda back to 1000AD to dismantle Robo before he's able to step into the Gate to 2300AD. Does the uber scientist win out? No! Robo still pops out of a gate in Good 2300AD even though Robo no longer exists to enter that Gate. That's because Robo still stepped into the Gate in a now-"overwritten" dimension, and that action is preserved across dimensional shifts.

So because the Gurus all entered Gates and time traveled, the fact that Magus has overwritten that original dimension with his actions doesn't make a lick of difference. Even if the Gurus are all devoured by Giga Gaia before the Ocean Palace Incident, Melchior will still pop out in circa 1000; Gaspar will still pop out in the End of Time; and Belthasar will still pop out in 2300AD.

A corollary to the Time Bastard theory is that any copy of the original time traveler in the new dimension will suddenly vanish at the point in time at which the original time traveler left. Let's say there's a new dimension in which Crono accidently steps on Magus' foot during their battle, sending him to a medieval hospital and preventing Magus from putting the finishing touch on his Lavos summon. Now Lavos doesn't appear to send Magus back to 12,000BC. What happens? Magus vanishes in his hospital bed suddenly! And appears in 12,000BC! But the Magus who appears in 12,000BC isn't the Magus with an injured foot; it is the Magus who finished his summoning spell in the now-overwritten dimension.

I hope that made sense (and I hope I got it right, this is the first time I've tried explaining to someone else).

EDIT: Hey, now that I think about it...doesn't this imply that Magus died during his fight with Lavos in the "very very first" timeline in which Lavos destroys the world in 1999? The Magus who parades as the Prophet has knowledge of Crono & co., proving that the Magus Crono & co. defeated in his castle was the first to time travel. Well, the Prophet's absence in the flashback on North Cape proves it equally well I suppose.

[Acacia Sgt]

EDIT: Hey, now that I think about it...doesn't this imply that Magus died during his fight with Lavos in the "very very first" timeline in which Lavos destroys the world in 1999? The Magus who parades as the Prophet has knowledge of Crono & co., proving that the Magus Crono & co. defeated in his castle was the first to time travel. Well, the Prophet's absence in the flashback on North Cape proves it equally well I suppose.

I always took it for granted that Magus died in that time line. Considering 2300 AD is ruined despite what happens until Crono and company fight it and defeat it.

[Prisoner of Time]

You are forgetting TB (Time Bastard), which is the action that claims the character to the DBT the moment it's other self time traveled, which prevents doubles.

According to the Earthbound elder, Janus and Melchior were swallowed by a black gate during the incident. This could be TB in effect. If so, same thing happened to the other two Gurus wherever they would be at the time. And since TTI makes the four appear regardless on their destinations (however, only knowing the events of the original time line, except Gaspar of course), whole thing works out.

Definetly, Janus has to appear in 5XX AD, considering the way 600 AD is after the events. Cyrus still death, and what seals the deal, The Mystic Trio still knows Magus.

The elder states that they fall into black gates, but that is in the time line in which Crono has rescued Melchior and interfered in the Ocean Palace.  In the time line which occurred when Magus was posing as a prophet but BEFORE Crono Team traveled into 12,000 BC to free Melchior it was impossible to have the gurus in the Ocean Palace to be sent into the future in the first place.  TTI only applies to a change in a time line resulting from that time traveler traveling back in time.  Since the Gurus' absence from the Ocean Palace was a result of Magus's time traveling into the past they do not have TTI.

So unless the black gates from the original Ocean Palace incident dropped the Gurus and Janus out of the pocket dimension which is supposed to transcend time into the time period regardless of the time line they would never exist in the future of the new time line. (though Janus may have been present in the Ocean Palace under that time line)  Again, the only hole in this theory that comes to mind is that Lavos's pocket dimension ceases to exist after 1999 so Belthasar could not have been sent to the saved future directly from there.

The more I think about it though, the more that I think that the pocket dimension is the only way that Belthasar, and in turn, the Epoch, could exist in 2300 for Crono to interact with after the gate is sealed.  Other than saying that the Entity gated them anyway, even though they were not in the Ocean Palace.  

[Prisoner of Time]

Ninja'd by Acacia Sgt on this, but here goes anyway...

Welcome to the Compendium, Prisoner! Have you looked up the theoretical "Time Bastard" phenomenon in the Compendium encyclopedia yet? Though I think that's described alongside TTI, so you may be familiar with it already.

So because the Gurus all entered Gates and time traveled, the fact that Magus has overwritten that original dimension with his actions doesn't make a lick of difference. Even if the Gurus are all devoured by Giga Gaia before the Ocean Palace Incident, Melchior will still pop out in circa 1000; Gaspar will still pop out in the End of Time; and Belthasar will still pop out in 2300AD.

Thank you for the welcome!

I've read the "Time Bastard" theory and agree 100% with it.

My problem with TTI of the Gurus is that in all variations of the time line containing Magus's appearance in 12,000 BC from the time gate both the entry point AND the exit points of the Guru's time travel are wiped from existence before getting a chance to occur. 

This is different from Crono traveling back in time from 1000 AD to say, 950 AD and changing the time line so that he never enters the gate in the first place.  Even though the new time line does not contain an entrance point for Crono, it does contain an exit point for the gate in 950 AD.  To balance the equation, TB eliminates the Crono in 1000 AD in the new time line because the old time line Crono emerges from the 950 AD gate.

[Acacia Sgt]

Once again, TTI makes them appear regardless of what happens and is given the first time one time travels.

They time traveled in the original incident. It's done, their existence in the other time periods have been guaranteed thanks to that. They have now TTI.

During the incident with Magus but not Crono the black gates would claim them regardless of how things went that time since they don't have TTI unlike their original selves.

As proof, if you return to 1000 AD after the battle with Magus, Melchior is still in his hut. He is still there thanks to TTI.

[chrono eric]

Yes, as mentioned, TTI theory preserves the act of appearance in a timeline, or more specifically - the instance of time travel itself. Regardless of what happens to change the timeline to alter the instance of their original time travel, the gurus should still appear in their respective times due to TTI.

Otherwise, as one might imagine, a paradox would occur. Take the grandfather paradox as the classic example:

Time traveller goes back in time at Time X to kill his grandfather and succeeds, thus at Time X in the new timeline the time traveller does not travel back in time because he was never born, repeated ad infinitum.

This paradox or ones similar to it would arise if TTI was not preserved in instances where the original action of time travel was altered. Unless I am misunderstanding your standpoint on this?

[Prisoner of Time]

Yes, as mentioned, TTI theory preserves the act of appearance in a timeline, or more specifically - the instance of time travel itself. Regardless of what happens to change the timeline to alter the instance of their original time travel, the gurus should still appear in their respective times due to TTI.

Otherwise, as one might imagine, a paradox would occur. Take the grandfather paradox as the classic example:

Time traveller goes back in time at Time X to kill his grandfather and succeeds, thus at Time X in the new timeline the time traveller does not travel back in time because he was never born, repeated ad infinitum.

This paradox or ones similar to it would arise if TTI was not preserved in instances where the original action of time travel was altered. Unless I am misunderstanding your standpoint on this?

I completely understand the situation that you have described but I believe that it is drastically different from the situation with the Gurus.  I think that a much more accurate term for TTI would be Time MODIFIER'S Immunity, which would eliminate the grandfather paradox issue yet account for the mechanics of time line changes.

Let me see if I can better explain where I am coming from:

In the case of the grandfather paradox you ARE eliminating the instance of initiating time travel because the time traveler is not born in the new time line.  HOWEVER, because of TTI, or TMI as I have described above, the time traveler will always appear in the past, being written in as an event in time.

The case with the Gurus is different because they are traveling into the future FROM a time line that no longer exists TO a time line that no longer exists.  In other words, NEITHER the instance of entering OR exiting a gate is preserved.

This is opposed to the grandfather paradox that people use to justify TTI in which case one does occur because by definition a time traveler's first action in the past cannot be changed by him/her because then it would not be the first action.  Even if the traveler were to travel to one minute before they would originally emerge from the gate, to kill their former self emerging from the gate, the actual event of emergence would precede any action taken and thus be preserved.

Finally, if Magus had arrived in 12,000 BC, though AFTER the Ocean Palace Incident and changed the time line drastically, the Gurus, and the original Janus WOULD unconditionally appear from their gates because the entrance into the time gates would be preserved because of the absence of interference from the Prophet.

The simplest way to put my argument is that in order to preserve TTI, the interaction with the time gate must occur at the earlier part of the time line, whether that is exiting the gate when traveling back in time or entering it when traveling forward as the Gurus did.

[Vehek]

I'm not sure I understand some of your points.

TTI only applies to a change in a time line resulting from that time traveler traveling back in time.

they are traveling into the future FROM a time line that no longer exists TO a time line that no longer exists.

TTI says the traveller arrives at the same point in the new timeline as they did in the earlier timeline.


Can you give a good reason why travel to the future shouldn't count?

[Acacia Sgt]

The case with the Gurus is different because they are traveling into the future FROM a time line that no longer exists TO a time line that no longer exists.  In other words, NEITHER the instance of entering OR exiting a gate is preserved.

It doesn't matter. The way I see time traveling, you aren't ON the time line during the time traveling, but exiting and entering it again. As such, TTI deposits the traveler in the current time line always. If the time line is sent to the DBT, it doesn't matter, as the new one will be now taken into account when depositing the traveler. And this repeats as many times as needed.

For example, Melchior's arrival is 1000 AD. Just 1000 AD, not '1000 AD of X time line'. That's why Melchior would still appear in 1000 AD since it's only the time that is taken into account, not the time line.

[Prisoner of Time]

TTI says the traveller arrives at the same point in the new timeline as they did in the earlier timeline.

I feel that the TTI theory needs to be modified.

Can you give a good reason why travel to the future shouldn't count?

Because both the acts of entering AND exiting the time gates were sent to the DBT after Magus altered the time line.

The only way that I can think of that the Gurus would appear in the new time line is if they were gated to an alternate dimension which transcends time (similar to Lavos's pocket dimension) and then dumped from the dimension into their respective eras.  I don't think it could have been Lavos's pocket dimension because he was defeated in 1999 and presumably the pocket dimension would not have existed further, which means no Bethasar in Cross.

It may have been the Entity seeing as it had the power to draw Dinopolis from the Reptite dimension in Cross.  This would also explain the TB incident described by the Elder regarding Melchior and Janus.

[Acacia Sgt]

How would the Gurus have been sent to an alternate dimension, if you can still visit them in the current one?

Melchior is still in his hut, the Nu with Belthasar's memory in the dome, and Gaspar on The End of Time. If they were sent to another dimension, Crono and company wouldn't be able to see them, as they don't move through dimensions, just time.

Imagine this when trying to revive Crono, it would be impossible as Belthasar wouldn't have been there to have the Nu make the dolls. Or even before, they wouldn't have gotten the Epoch as no Belthasar would have been there to finish it.

Or better yet, the first travel to 600 AD would have eliminated the Gurus from appearing if going by your theory.

[Prisoner of Time]

How would the Gurus have been sent to an alternate dimension, if you can still visit them in the current one?

I'm not sure you understood what I meant.  I was not saying that they were sent to an alternate dimension in the sense of having the planet, Lavos, time flow, ect.  I merely said that the only explanation I saw for them appearing in their respective eras was that they were gated from Lavos's pocket dimension to some similar time transcending dimension, possibly created by the Entity, then sent back to the time line to guarantee their unconditional emergence in their respective ages.  Since the "dimension" transcends time they can be sent into their eras directly from there.

Melchior is still in his hut, the Nu with Belthasar's memory in the dome, and Gaspar on The End of Time. If they were sent to another dimension, Crono and company wouldn't be able to see them, as they don't move through dimensions, just time.

Imagine this when trying to revive Crono, it would be impossible as Belthasar wouldn't have been there to have the Nu make the dolls. Or even before, they wouldn't have gotten the Epoch as no Belthasar would have been there to finish it.

That is why I have provided the above explanation of why they still do appear even though I don't believe that they should.

Or better yet, the first travel to 600 AD would have eliminated the Gurus from appearing if going by your theory.

No it wouldn't because the future created by the first time traveling incident BECAME the time line so the Gurus would still appear.  I never said that a new dimension was created simply by time traveling.  The Gurus would still appear even though the time line was changed because the change did not prevent them from being present at the Ocean Palace incident.

I need to diagram this when I get a chance.  It should clear things up.

[Acacia Sgt]

It doesn't matter. The way I see time traveling, you aren't ON the time line during the time traveling, but exiting and entering it again. As such, TTI deposits the traveler in the current time line always. If the time line is sent to the DBT, it doesn't matter, as the new one will be now taken into account when depositing the traveler. And this repeats as many times as needed.

For example, Melchior's arrival is 1000 AD. Just 1000 AD, not '1000 AD of X time line'. That's why Melchior would still appear in 1000 AD since it's only the time that is taken into account, not the time line.

They only need to be present in the Ocean Palace the first time it happens (original time line). Once it's done and they have time traveled, in any other alternate time line they are no longer needed there as TB would do the work instead wherever they would be, while TTI will make them appear in their respective eras (and again, though not exactly the same versions of them).