Serge = Janus Theory

[Philosopher1701]

Wow.

We are discussing Tolkien's mythology in a thread about a theory at Chrono Compendium.

Who would have thought?    

[Daggart]

Christianity and Judaism have a story about how God made man from the dust of the ground. Because of this, "Dust to dust" is a commonly heard at funerals.

Arni village talks about life coming from the sea. It seems to me that "What came from the sea has returned to the sea", or whatever the varian on that was, is simply another form of dust to dust.

Someone said they think serge is Janus. Someone else refuted that. Then it was said he's Janus reincarnated. Someone pointed out that the innate is completely wrong for that. Then it was said that that wouldn't matter if he were reincarnated...

That argument is entirely circular. it states that He's Janus simply because that would be nifty, and that anythig contradcting that in the story doesnt mater because its a reincarnation so he can be very different... but then why should he be consitered Janus? It doesnt work if every point denying the possibility is thrown away but every point affirming it (blue hair and an amulet) is accepted as evidence.

(I'm not attacking anyone here. It just seems like the argument is a bit falacious.)

IF it was Janus reincarnated, its with more than enough differences for him to be an entirely diferent person and therefor, from a practical standpoint, the speculation seems like pointless complication.

[Daniel Krispin]

Christianity and Judaism have a story about how God made man from the dust of the ground. Because of this, "Dust to dust" is a commonly heard at funerals.

Arni village talks about life coming from the sea. It seems to me that "What came from the sea has returned to the sea", or whatever the varian on that was, is simply another form of dust to dust.

Exactly right. People tend to connect things in such ways. The reason the Judeo-Christian traditions follow Man being created from dust is that in the Enuma-Elish, the creation account of Babylonia, the high god Marduk defeats the godess of chaos, Tiamat, and her battle-commander Qingu. The victorious gods set the defeated gods to work digging irrigation, but to alleivate this work, the gods take the blood of Qingu, mingle it with earth, and create Man, to fulfill this task of digging so that crops may grow. Plants growing from irrigated mud and dust was extremely important in that culture - thus, I think, people connected their origins with coming from the fertilized earth. Floods and excess of water were a fear, however, thus the godess of chaos is Tiamat, the personification of the underwater ancient seas. Further west in Egypt, the water of the Nile and its flooding, however, was seen as a symbol of life. People that live directly on the sea and depend on it no doubt see it as their life... contrast to those from inland who would be in great fear of it and see it as death. Anyway, as you said, this is likely just showing Arni's connection with the sea.

Oh, and as for the Tolkien thing... most of modern fantasy, and certainly its existance in its current form, owes itself to Tolkien. It is the pillar upon which the foundations stand, and the form from which most else of that type is derived, however loosely. More than that, however, he brough fantasy from out of the realms of child-tales, and allowed it to be commonly accepted. Thus to speak of Tolkien in this is to look at the basic fantasy archetype, which I think is permissable.

[Philosopher1701]

Good point, Daggart!  

[Philosopher1701]

Well, does anybody see any real potential in this theory?

[Sentenal]

You mean the theory that Serge is Janus?  No, it takes way to much assuming, and disregarding.

[Philosopher1701]

I have just always felt that Serge was supposed to be a much more important character than the way he was presented.

It seems to me that the script suggests that he has a personal connection with Kid/Schala.

[V_Translanka]

That can kind of depend somewhat, depending on how exactly you deal with the problems regarding Kid (from the poisoning to recruiting her).

[Philosopher1701]

Here is an idea that is somewhat farfetched:

Janus: One among you will shortly perish.


Janus predicted the death of Crono.


Serge "predicted" his murdering of Kid.

[Daniel Krispin]

Here is an idea that is somewhat farfetched:

Janus: One among you will shortly perish.


Janus predicted the death of Crono.


Serge "predicted" his murdering of Kid.

You must be joking. Premonitions are hardly a unique circumstance! True, Serge has some foresight, as does the child-prince Janus, but the ability to read and feel omens being a commonality is hardly grounds for them being the same.

Can this theory not simply die once disproven? The fact of the matter is simply this: Serge looks different, thus his bone structure and DNA is inherently different. On the physical side, they are surely not the same. Likewise, mentally: Janus is swift to angry speech, Serge is silent and compassionate. The only caring Janus shows is for his sister, whereas Serge cares for everyone in his group and, indeed, if the path goes differently, spurns her company upon first meeting. If he was truly Janus, and had any trace of such a mindset, that is not a very caring or brotherly way to act, considering they had been seperated by millennia. Thus their emotions differ as well. So what then remains? The soul? Perhaps, but nothing can be proven either way for, if the soul does not make its presence apparent, neither then would it have any influence on their caring for Schala, thus it may be discounted.

So there we have it, and I hope finally. Even if Serge WERE Janus, he is so changed that he is inherently a different person, and his caring for Schala is no different than that which any other would give to her, had they known her as well as he did. In fact, his love of her is far more amorous, and if he is truly her brother, that would be a strange thing. If Serge is Janus, Janus is dead. But to even assume this, one must raise only the loosest connections possible. And are we not forgetting Guile in this? Yes, there was an intent for someone to be Janus: Guile. Why then would they, if they lacked the time to tell his story, covertly mean another to be Janus? It is quite the absurd stretch.

It's as simple as that.

[Sentenal]

They decided not to make Guile Janus because that would have made Guile too imporant not to have in your party.

[Daniel Krispin]

I was under the impression that in the interview they decided to cut it for reasons of space and time: they really didn't have the resources to add another such an important character.

[Sentenal]

Well, here is the question conserning it.

Is there any connection between Guile in CC and Magus in CT? Both use black magic, have purple hair, and float. The only difference that I can tell is their dress and the fact that Guile uses a staff. I was thinking that they could both be different adult versions of Janus (from CT). Of course, it's been a while since playing CC, so I could be totally wrong. There are some other character connections (I.E. Frog and Glenn) but Guile and Magus raises the most questions. Thanks for the great game.

Masato Kato: To let the cat out of the bag, in the early stages of development, Guile was indeed meant to be Magus. In our original plan, the true identity of Guile was supposed to be Magus after the events in Trigger. (At the end of Trigger, Magus [a.k.a. Janus in Trigger and Magil in Radical Dreamers] disappeared into a Time Gate to go searching for his big sister, Schala, who was lost somewhere in time.) However, as the game's development progressed and we decided to use such a huge number of playable characters, we decided not to make him be Magus. We thought it was impossible to portray the relationship between Magus and Schala adequately in this game. So we changed tracks, made the colors of the Magus character design paler, and turned him into Guile, the magician. In a way, it's a pity, as I really would like to have seen the valiant figure of Magus come to life again.

I've been flamed to much on GameFAQs for arguing this a proof of the mass character approach hurting development of at least one character.  Its really annoying when you have explicit proof like that, and people still flame you and call you a fanboy.

[Daniel Krispin]

Alright, my memory must have been messing with me. Thanks for clearing that up.

On a side note, it's always interesting to see that, and how he refers to Janus as a valiant figure. Too often, I think, his dark and gloomy side overshadows this. Perhaps the intent really was that he was redeemed after CT - RD seems to show a stern and shadowy, yet not evil, character... and Guile himself, though not Janus, does have enigmatic but not evil ways about him.

On a further sidenote, I'm not sure how anyone could really brand you as a fanboy for maintaining that. Strange people...

[Sentenal]

Its because I think a ton of CC suffers from characters that suffer from lack of development, and many of them could be done away with.  And that I think CT is better.  I don't really take those guys seriously anymore though.  Anyway, I don't want to bring that over here.