Author Topic: Fuck Carrie Prejean and the California Beauty Pageant  (Read 7655 times)

KebreI

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Re: Fuck Carrie Prejean and the California Beauty Pageant
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2009, 04:44:25 pm »
God, this topic has brought out the inner frightened moderate in everyone.
I am not frighten in the slightest of voicing my thoughts. I don't wish to go around with a red paint tagging walls and shouting my creed on the streets.  Am I a moderate just because I don't yell and scream obscenities? Am I a moderate because I can easily tolerate a conflicting stance? No.

Jutty

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Re: Fuck Carrie Prejean and the California Beauty Pageant
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2009, 04:45:06 pm »
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What relevance did that have with the Miss America pageant?
Believe it or not, beauty pageants have at least a slight veneer of focus on inner beauty as well, easily referenced with the "I want world peace" cliché answer for finalists.

I'll agree with that when I see an overweight person in one. I still think it's her prerogative and this is just trying to be pushed as news. Exactly the type of thing I would expect to see on Faux (Fox) News.

ZaichikArky

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Re: Fuck Carrie Prejean and the California Beauty Pageant
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2009, 04:47:14 pm »
Quote
But aside from the content of what she said, I felt she could have expressed herself far more articulately, and that alone makes me glad they didn't give her the crown.

I dunno. Would you rather she said:

I personally believe the U.S. Americans are unable to do so because, uh, some, uh...people out there in our nation don't have marriage, and, uh, I believe that our marriage like such as South Africa and, uh, the Iraq everywhere like, such as and...I believe that they should, our marriage over here in the U.S. should help the U.S., err, uh, should help South Africa and should help the Iraq and the Asian countries, so we will be able to build up our future for our...

IAmSerge

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Re: Fuck Carrie Prejean and the California Beauty Pageant
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2009, 04:58:38 pm »
My PERSONAL opinion is that Gay marriage should not be allowed under 2 reasons:

1: Marriage is a Biblical, Judaic, and Islamic principle that has been stated to be between a man and a woman.
2: Being something of religion, the law should have no hand in this.

Now, let me expand on my explanation:
Marriage has been taken from religion and into state to become a legal binding between a man and woman.  Personally, this is a breach of church and state to me, but that doesn't really matter or apply to the topic at hand.  Altering the lawful version of marriage will most definitley anger a numerous amount of people who consider lawfully married and religiously married to be the same thing (which in many cases it is the same thing).  Altering the lawful bersion of marriage will then give the effect that, since lawful and religious are considered the same, that the religious version is altered as well, and that would be a breach in church and state (I really am not going to go into church state thing... anything marriage related is like this, so w/ever).  This is where I get my viewpoint from.

It may have been "proven" that people are born homosexual, but many other things have been so-called "proven" and then proven otherwise.  People are gay, maybe not by choice per-say, but I believe that if a person's settings and life can affect their actions and attitude, that they can affect their sexual preference as well (no matter how unrelated their life and lifestyle is to their preference).  Under that viewpoint, if someone can be "turned gay" from their past and their present, then their future also should be able to have a chance for them to be "turned un-gay".

I'm not saying I hate gays.  Some of my best friends are gay.  Some of the coolest people I know are gay.  But if we can see someone go from straight to gay, I'm pretty sure there have been cases that people have gone from being gay to straight (albeit rare because of probability... say that theres a 1/10 chance he will become gay and then a 1/10 chance he will turn back. thats a 1/100 chance that he will go from one to the other then back).

Now, here is my personal solution to the problem:
Though I personally do not support homosexual marriage.... ....I never said I didn't support the theory that there can be a homosexual equivalent of marriage.  Religiously, homosexual marriage is wrong.  Lawfully, marriage gives a couple numerous different advantages over being apart (though I do not know the statistics of what being married changes, so I really cannot list them).  Being religiously wrong or otherwise, I personally believe that homosexual couples should be allowed to enjoy the same advantages (and disadvantages) that married couples have.  There should be a homosexual equivalent to the lawful side of marriage.  My only stipulation to this is that it not be called marriage, but go under some other name (but not some stupid politically correct term like "lawfully bound" either. that would be stupid).  Not being called marriage, religious fanatics should have less right to complain (and they SHOULDN'T complain either).

I, myself, am a Christian, and I do personally stand against having a religiously bound version of gay marriage, because it is against my religion (I mean, if there was a religion out there that was 100% all for homosexual marriage, be my guest).  However I do think that homosexuals should be able to enjoy the rights and liberties of heterosexual couples through their own version of marriage.

(on an unrelated topic, you can bash fox news all you want for it having a conservative bias.  just about all the other news stations have a liberal bias, anyways)

-Serge out.

Jutty

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Re: Fuck Carrie Prejean and the California Beauty Pageant
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2009, 05:01:50 pm »
It's against everything I stand for. I'm republican.

KebreI

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Re: Fuck Carrie Prejean and the California Beauty Pageant
« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2009, 05:03:27 pm »
Hey Serge, marriage was in ancient china before the major spread of Judaism and the like.

teaflower

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Re: Fuck Carrie Prejean and the California Beauty Pageant
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2009, 05:10:50 pm »
... I've never voted before... I'm too young.

Yes, the world is shaped by conservatives and liberals. I just want the right to think what I want to and have no one try to make me think like they do, or worse tell me I'm thinking wrong. You give two people a piece of literature and they come back with two very different ideas of what it meant and all that good stuff. That's all fine and dandy, but when person A tries to make person B think like they do and tells them they're thinking wrong, that's not cool.

IAmSerge

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Re: Fuck Carrie Prejean and the California Beauty Pageant
« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2009, 05:13:01 pm »
Hey Serge, marriage was in ancient china before the major spread of Judaism and the like.

Despite if what you say is true or not, our lifestyle and our government derived it from Christianity originally.  Also, I would be shocked to hear of gay marriages being accepted in ancient china...  it sounds like one of those kinds of things that would get you killed in ancient times....

And teaflower: Agreed

Thought

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Re: Fuck Carrie Prejean and the California Beauty Pageant
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2009, 05:52:02 pm »
Sorry, but when someone supports the systematic oppression of an entire group of people born a certain way beyond their control, I'm going to "give them shit" about it...

Near-sighted people of the world unite! We have been forced to wear eye-shackles for too long! People say that Diver's Licenses = 20/20 vision, I say that that is nothing but ignorance and hate spe-
Oh wait, you were talking about homosexuals.

Systematic oppression of an entire group of people born a certain way beyond their control is fairly standard. The question ought to be if that gene expression could be harmful to the individual and others if left unregulated.

It is acceptable to force near sighted individuals to wear corrective lenses when driving because, though they were born a certain way beyond their control, they are potentially dangerous to themselves and others if left unregulated.

Given that homosexuals are not a danger to themselves or others (well, no more than any given human), they ought not have specific regulations applied to them.

Point being, genetics is a red herring.

Exactly the type of thing I would expect to see on Faux (Fox) News.

It's only a clever play on words if you don't have to explain it.

1: Marriage is a Biblical, Judaic, and Islamic principle that has been stated to be between a man and a woman.

Marriage has existed in other cultures too. Romans and Greeks also practiced marriage and while the gods were consulted to see if a union was auspicious, it wasn't inherently a religious ceremony.

While Western society evolved from the Medieval Society, which had Christian overtones, that society evolved from Roman tradition before it (and that from Greek tradition). Indeed, the Justinian Code still forms the backbone of the modern legal system.

Additionally, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all have conflicting beliefs about marriage; which should be held above the others? Does a divorce only require I throw a sandal at my wife? Can I take three more? If I die without producing an heir, should my brothers be forced to sleep with my wife in order to produce one?

While it is perfectly valid for individuals to vote based on their belief systems, as a society of individuals from a myriad of backgrounds, we cannot apply a single cultures definition of marriage to government laws.

2: Being something of religion, the law should have no hand in this.

No hand in religious marriage ceremonies, I agree. However, insofar as any legal benefits are a part of marriage, the law must have a hand in it. You can't have it both ways. Either, legally, no marriage can be recognized or, legally, every marriage must be recognized. I'd be largely happy either way.

So either remove the legal rights that a heterosexual spouse has, or grant those legal rights to a homosexual spouse.

It may have been "proven" that people are born homosexual, but many other things have been so-called "proven" and then proven otherwise.

As said above, genetics is a red herring. Let us assume, for a moment, that homosexuality is entirely a choice; so what? Being a Republican is entirely a choice, being an Atheist is entirely a choice, seeing the new Star Trek movie is entirely a choice. If we allow freedom in what religious, political, or entertainmental beliefs a person might have, why not in sexual practices as well?

To note, at least some forms of homosexuality are genetic (there are, at the least, different genetic variations that can manifest as homosexuality). A recent study, for example, linked male homosexuality to a gene that increases either the fertility or sexual drive in women (their aunts, specifically). And by recent, I mean in the last year. And by last year I mean “I can’t remember yesterday with details, I doubt I can provide any more information on this.”

Religiously, homosexual marriage is wrong.

Actually, I'd argue that, as a Christian, you should be a supporter of homosexual marriage. As a Christian, you should be imitating Jesus, yes?

Do you recall the Sermon on the Mount? If someone strikes you on your right cheek, offer the left. If they force you to go with them one mile, go with them two. And I take from that: if someone tries to "infringe" on what you say sex should be, give them what you say marriage is as well.

Do you recall the disparaging remarks made about Jesus? That he was a friend of "sinners and tax collectors"? Christians should be the friends of homosexuals (regardless of if homosexuality is a sin or not). However, Christian opposition to homosexual marriage has become a barrier to this possibility. And, if you are Christian, and believe that homosexuality is a sin, then you should want these people to be saved? Excessive Christian opposition to homosexual marriage (and indeed, homosexuals in general) forms a barrier to the very potential. If a homosexual hears "God hates fags" from the mouth of a "Christian," why should they listen to anything else they have to say? Christians, then, are a barrier to homosexuals accepting Christian beliefs.

Christians should be the best friends homosexuals have; that we aren't is a sin (poetically speaking).
« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 05:58:11 pm by Thought »

nightmare975

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Re: Fuck Carrie Prejean and the California Beauty Pageant
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2009, 05:59:01 pm »
it sounds like one of those kinds of things that would get you killed in ancient times....

Homosexuality was an executable offense in Great Britain. I remember Ian McKellen saying that in an interview once.

I kinda wish I could find that interview now.

FaustWolf

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Re: Fuck Carrie Prejean and the California Beauty Pageant
« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2009, 06:31:01 pm »
Quote
But aside from the content of what she said, I felt she could have expressed herself far more articulately, and that alone makes me glad they didn't give her the crown.

I dunno. Would you rather she said:

I personally believe the U.S. Americans are unable to do so because, uh, some, uh...people out there in our nation don't have marriage, and, uh, I believe that our marriage like such as South Africa and, uh, the Iraq everywhere like, such as and...I believe that they should, our marriage over here in the U.S. should help the U.S., err, uh, should help South Africa and should help the Iraq and the Asian countries, so we will be able to build up our future for our...
Touche, Zaich, touche. I agree that Carrie Prejean did a better job expressing herself than her predecessor.


I don't believe her answer has been quoted in this thread yet, so this is a great time to drop it:
Quote from: Carrie Prejean
Well I think it’s great that Americans are able to choose one way or the other. We live in a land where you can choose same-sex marriage or opposite marriage. You know what, in my country, in my family, I do believe that marriage should be between a man and a woman, no offense to anybody out there. But that’s how I was raised and I believe that it should be between a man and a woman.

I fault the media with often shortening her answer by cutting out the first two sentences. At least I hadn't been aware of that part of her response before I saw it on Wikipedia. When I said she could have been more articulate, I was referring to:

You know what, in my country, in my family, I do believe that marriage should be between a man and a woman...

That's the kind of sentence that shouldn't survive the beta test phase of an RPG...Unless the writer's point was to make the character seem mildly airheaded. More critically, in this extremely harsh economy such a minor bit of grammatical awkwardness could prevent a person from landing a job if it happened during a hiring interview.

However, now that I examine the whole answer more closely, there is also a problem with this:

Well I think it’s great that Americans are able to choose one way or the other. We live in a land where you can choose same-sex marriage or opposite marriage.

We are not quite there yet; the choice only exists in somewhere between two and four states in the US if I remember correctly. This is like saying women could choose to vote in the US in 1865. Ms. Prejean's answer belies a lack of appreciation for the greater meaning of the gay marriage movement: it's about making sure people are valued as full human beings everywhere, and that States can't "choose" whether to value human beings.

What makes the gay marriage debate so tricky is that gay marriage really isn't "possible" in most religions owing to the fact that marriage as a religious concept arose in part to promote reproduction ("be fruitful and multiply"). When asexual genetic recombination is made possible by science, things will get really interesting, but until then, American citizens will have to learn to separate marriage in the religious sense from marriage in the legal sense. I don't think gay marriage advocates are arguing for the government to barge into churches and force clergy to conduct gay marriages (or at least I personally would not go so far as to advocate this). The movement is simply asking the government to afford gays the same legal rights and priveleges hetero citizens enjoy. Conservatives have to realize that their personal beliefs aren't under attack here, just the harm they're doing to fellow human beings.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 06:38:17 pm by FaustWolf »

Thought

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Re: Fuck Carrie Prejean and the California Beauty Pageant
« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2009, 06:55:17 pm »
We are not quite there yet; the choice only exists in somewhere between two and four states in the US if I remember correctly.

True, but the question was (since this hasn't been posted either):

Quote from: Perez Hilton
Vermont recently became the fourth state to legalize same-sex marriage. Do you think every state should follow suit? Why or why not?

She didn't answer the question, but that is generally to be expected. Given the context, it is quite possible that she was referring to the situation in Vermont and the other states specifically. Or, alternately, she could have been referring to voter choice, and not explicitly marriage choice. That is, she could have been saying that it is great that voters can decide if they want to allow it or not (which indicates she isn't aware that voters have had no say in some of those cases), not that individuals get to be married or not.

The movement is simply asking the government to afford gays the same legal rights and priveleges hetero citizens enjoy.

They have the exact same rights currently, and in every state. A homosexual man is just as free to marry a woman as a heterosexual man and they'll get the exact same privileges, and a heterosexual man is just as barred from marrying a man as a homosexual man and the exact same privileges are withheld.

Things are perfectly equal, according to the letter of the law. Not so much according to the intent, however. Which is really just me splitting hairs.

Jutty

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Re: Fuck Carrie Prejean and the California Beauty Pageant
« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2009, 06:55:55 pm »
Exactly the type of thing I would expect to see on Faux (Fox) News.

It's only a clever play on words if you don't have to explain it.

I like to assume everyone's a moron.

nightmare975

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Re: Fuck Carrie Prejean and the California Beauty Pageant
« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2009, 07:02:29 pm »
Exactly the type of thing I would expect to see on Faux (Fox) News.

It's only a clever play on words if you don't have to explain it.

I like to assume everyone's a democrat.

Fix'd

Jutty

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Re: Fuck Carrie Prejean and the California Beauty Pageant
« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2009, 07:04:25 pm »
Exactly the type of thing I would expect to see on Faux (Fox) News.

It's only a clever play on words if you don't have to explain it.

I like to assume everyone's a democrat.

Fix'd

Nice  :lol: