Discussion: Nature of the Entity in CT&CC and Bosh/Balthazar's Role

[DBoruta]

This has been bugging me for quite some time, ever since I observed that The Guru of Reason's (Bosh/Balthazar) role in CT was actually larger than what was spelled out for us, I've been thinking that while Kato had it right that the planet really was the "Entity" repsonsible for creating the gates, it wasn't purely the planet's will that guided Crono & Co. through the  events of CT.  In other words, I think Kato only had it half-right and tried to make something canon that conflicted with pre-established but seldom-discussed canon from CT.  Here's the evidence:

- In the very beginning of CT, if you try to sell Marle's pendant to Melchior, he tells you to hold onto it and keep it safe. 
- When you meet Balthazar for the first time, he speaks about Death Peak and about how now is not the time to climb it, and that "they", the dolls he created, must show you the way.  This foreshadows you having to climb Death Peak and there is a right time  (using the Chrono Trigger) to climb it.  In other words, there are STRONG hints that Balthazar had prior knowledge of the heroes' needing to come to him to climb Death Peak. 
- Balthazar also asks if you have ever seen his creations, the Blackbird and the Ocean Palace, although this could be chalked up to his slowly losing his mind....
- Balthazar dies completing his Wings of Time and leaves a message for Crono & Co. explaining why he  completed the Wings of Time, and explaining that he knew they would be able to open the sealed door, which means he also had knowledge of their being to the Kingdom of Zeal.  He even creates a copy of himself in the Nu to help guide Crono & Co. 
- When it comes time to use the Chrono Trigger, Balthazar not only knows how to activate it (may have had prior knowledge in Zeal), but has made preparations for the heroes to climb Death Peak, and depending on whether or not they have a clone, he guides them to Nornstein Bekkler in 1000 A.D. 


Here's my thoughts on the matter: 

The planet is the "entity" in one sense.  The planet is responsible for the gates being formed, however, it is hinted that Balthazar played a much larger role in the events of CT than what is commonly accepted.  He may not have guided all the events as he did in CC, but he did have more of a hand in the events of CT than what he is being given credit for. 

The planet is responsible for the gates but I don't believe in the sense that is commonly accepted.  I see the planet-as-entity as a physical and temporal phenomenon.  Lavos is buried in the core of the planet, which in itself could be considered a strong electromagnet.  So, with a pocket dimension interacting with a strong electromagnet, time and space can't help but be distorted and have holes and connections be made.  In other words, it's the planet's reaction to Lavos in its core that makes the gates form in the first place. 

Now in CC, you see some even crazier stuff happen, where time periods don't bend together, but timelines do!  The most violent example of this is the planet pulling Dinopolis out of its timeline to counter-act Chronopolis.  Kato says that the planet pulls Dinopolis from its timeline into the one where Chronopolis is present, but is that a "conscious" act of the planet-as-entity?  I don't think that's the case.  Instead, I would think that this resulted of interactions between Lavos, the planet, and the Frozen Flame, causing a massive dimensional distortion (a la Fringe - thank you J.J. Abrams), where Dinopolis crossed over. 


What are your thoughts on this subject - I'd like to see a debate going on this.

[ZeaLitY]

There does seem to be some foresight from Gaspar and Belthasar. The Belthasar foresight is problematic, however, because the preparation of the dolls depends on knowing ahead of time that Crono would die at the Ocean Palace. And predetermination is so antithetical to the Chrono series, and all other cases of temporal mechanics...

[Xenterex]

Predetermination/Ontological paradox really only comes into unethical standing with the Chrono "series" from Cross, particularly in the events that I would cite as being uncharacteristic and direct interference of authorship involvement in the story (via Belthasar) rather than thought out events played out by character. 

In CT, I think it makes the story within the game make more sense.  As an example, how does the name "Lavos" using prehistoric word roots, persist through millions of years into a computer storage bank?  By Lucca hearing the words in person from Ayla then passing that information down through time via her technological contributions (or at least influences) to the future?   However, there could be some exception/alteration made to these cycles via entities outside, or in some control over, the time flow of this world; the Entity and Lavos.

My personal take I got from CT is that the distortions in time (primarily the gates) are created as a result of interactions (and maybe even strategic moves) between the Entity and Lavos.  Ignoring the events of CC entirely, it becomes possible for the entirety of CT to be largely predetermined.  Crono and company could have made contributions to the timeline that ultimately don't change the future.  With the alleged death of the Entity, they could just be living out a dream that doesn't change, or simply putting up the best defense the Entity could (too little, too late?) and it not stop the Lavos future.

However, I find that particular result a little too depressing and disappointing, but i certainly would say there are conflicting elements in the extent of how much the Gurus and the Entity can have on the flow of time in the series.  And I would attribute that to Kato/Team creating events for the sake of convenience in creating convolution.

I would say the in the case of Melchoir's comment pertaining to the pendant, he might recognize it for its intrinsic value to the royalty more so than to the time line and not want to deal with the legal issues of his possessing the item.  Both Crono's trial and King Guardia's are heavily influenced by their interactions with royal property.

Back to address the original question posed at the start of the topic:  my thoughts are that the various gates are actions taking between both the entity and Lavos to influence time in favor for themselves.  A time based chess game, so to speak.  The primary gate that leads Crono to the past/future to meet Frog and Robo I'd say are events initiated by the Entity.  Bringing Magus to the past and to Zeal, then the portals to scatter the guru's and Janus, a move by Lavos.  Lucca saving her mother, a move by the Entity.  Crono's revival however, I'd say that the Trigger was not created by or involved with the Entity as I think that either the Entity has effectively died by that time in the game, or Lavos has more power over the Entity, with the Trigger designed to operate against Lavos' influence over time.