Author Topic: Why the Chrono Cross Hate?  (Read 6789 times)

alfadorredux

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Re: Why the Chrono Cross Hate?
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2009, 09:07:51 pm »
To summarize things succinctly, fans wanted another game that was like CT. CC, while it has its own merits, bears very little resemblance to CT in terms of story, gameplay, characters, or (perhaps especially) tone. Because it wasn't what existing fans of the series wanted, its flaws tend to get blown out of proportion.

It isn't that it's a bad game, it's that it perhaps wasn't the right game for the Chrono franchise at that time.

utunnels

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Re: Why the Chrono Cross Hate?
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2009, 12:15:59 am »
HAHA, when I looked at the url, I recalled I posted it somewhere: http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,3151.msg157978.html#msg157978

That page was once deleted so I refered a google cache link.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2009, 12:18:18 am by utunnels »

Katie Skyye

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Re: Why the Chrono Cross Hate?
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2009, 04:17:26 pm »
11. Much less varied, interesting, and memorable musical score.

It's not that I don't like CC music...it's just that nearly every song is a blatant remix of the intro theme...it's a nice song, but how about some variety? Usually there's enough difference between songs that--even though you know it's a remix of some base piece of music--it sounds original.

Bah. I'll play it anyway, but I don't really consider it a spiritual sequel to CT--even if it is the literal sequel. I'll just play it as a stand-alone, and thereby save myself the aggravation of trying to compare it to CT.

Dapifer

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Re: Why the Chrono Cross Hate?
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2009, 05:28:44 pm »
I respect your opinion Katie, but I invite you to listen one more time to "Prisoners of Fate", that's the song you hear when fighting Miguel, and in the Water Dragon Isle during the Dwarves VS. Fairies scenario, and also for the first time when Kid gets poisoned(only for a little while, so it's hard to notice this is the actual first time).

This is the best song in the OST, IMHO. It always makes me feel like crying, it's powerful yet really sad, excellent song overall, the Dragon God theme is also one of my favorites, I like the OST overall, I can understand someone not sharing my opinion about it, but if you feel every song is a remix of the original, those two (Prisoners of Fate and Dragon God) are definitly not, and two of the greatest songs I have heard in a game ever.

I really invite you to listen to them... hey! I got a Youtube link for them:

Prisoners of Fate: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_U5nelkxMKQ
Dragon God: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbEoTownSrA&feature=related

I am not claiming you haven't heard them, just to listen to them one more time and see if you really don't like them, as I said before, I respect your tastes, and if you dislike them that's OK, but they are certainly not remixe. (as far as my untrained ears can tell anyways...)

Katie Skyye

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Re: Why the Chrono Cross Hate?
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2009, 05:47:06 pm »
I respect your opinion Katie, but I invite you to listen one more time to "Prisoners of Fate", that's the song you hear when fighting Miguel, and in the Water Dragon Isle during the Dwarves VS. Fairies scenario, and also for the first time when Kid gets poisoned(only for a little while, so it's hard to notice this is the actual first time).

This is the best song in the OST, IMHO. It always makes me feel like crying, it's powerful yet really sad, excellent song overall, the Dragon God theme is also one of my favorites, I like the OST overall, I can understand someone not sharing my opinion about it, but if you feel every song is a remix of the original, those two (Prisoners of Fate and Dragon God) are definitly not, and two of the greatest songs I have heard in a game ever.

I really invite you to listen to them... hey! I got a Youtube link for them:

Prisoners of Fate: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_U5nelkxMKQ
Dragon God: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbEoTownSrA&feature=related

I am not claiming you haven't heard them, just to listen to them one more time and see if you really don't like them, as I said before, I respect your tastes, and if you dislike them that's OK, but they are certainly not remixe. (as far as my untrained ears can tell anyways...)

Hey, I really like most of the CC songs (except the battle theme, so far),and I know that there are songs that are not blatant remixes...but so many of them ARE. It's not that they're not all (or most of them) excellent songs, there's just not as much variety of melody as I'd expected.

And the Dragon God song is epic. ^^ It sounded great in the CE playthrough. I have a feeling Prisoners of Fate loses a lot of the emotioal OOMPH when you haven't actually played that far into the game yet. I have no idea what's supposed to be going on in that scene, so to me it's just a melancholy song.

Dapifer

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Re: Why the Chrono Cross Hate?
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2009, 06:16:55 pm »
Oops... I didn't meant to spoil anything... sorry  :(

But yes, it is played in very tense and emotional moments, but the first time I played CC, I only realized this in the one scene that(for me at least) bears the most powerfull feeling, when you eventually finish CC, tell me what you thought about the scenes involving that song, and I will tell you why I thought the scene I mean is the most powerfull(I know it's kindda of a hassle what I am asking, but I don't want to further spoil anything u.u)

Zephira

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Re: Why the Chrono Cross Hate?
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2009, 06:46:43 pm »
Hey, I really like most of the CC songs (except the battle theme, so far)
Aw, but the battle theme came straight from RD! That's probably my favourite song in CC.

Yeah, the score for CC is great in its own right, but most of it is pretty narrow. I don't care much for the tropical themes prevalent in most of its songs. I wish they had kept more of RD's songs and overall tones, especially the one where they're walking towards Viper Manor after fighting the wolves.

Samopoznanie

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Re: Why the Chrono Cross Hate?
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2009, 02:49:32 am »

3. Element system removes almost all character individuality in combat and contributes to a Pokemon-like classification of characters by "color."

8. Development for the majority of character is severely lacking or completely nonexistant.

9. Most characters are silly and pointless.

Number three, I think was just a sign of the times. Pokemon was big; a lot of games were experimenting with similar systems. Even if it was annoying, it shouldn't really be surprising.

Numbers eight and nine, I actually agree with, and that was my main beef with the game. The rest of it, well, I can remember having some similar grievances at the time I played it. But upon re-playing CT a few times on the DS, years later, and playing through Radical Dreamers, CC and its themes / structure make a lot more sense. It's a separate game with some overlapping themes and references, and you don't need to have played CT to appreciate it. There are pluses and minuses to the approach.

For me, I don't have any grudge or disappointment toward CC as I used to. But I can sympathize with those who did / do feel that way. A number of people (like me!) bought a PSX just to play CC, and it was a bitter pill to swallow then, in that it was so different.

These days, I admire Kato's imagination and the trippy way he weaves various themes together, but the pacing of CC was such that I found it rather clumsy and incoherent at times. Especially the last chunk of the game.

I actually prefer what I've watched of Crimson Echoes to CC, myself. Even if it didn't use the original characters, the story gives you a much clearer understanding of things' significance in the Chrono world - chronopolis, lavos, frozen flame, etc - than CC ever did, IMO.

Zelbess

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Re: Why the Chrono Cross Hate?
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2009, 02:23:35 pm »
Quote from: Zeality
HAHAHA, yeah, Chrono Cross really suffers horribly from 1) characters that don't look like they all have Down's syndrome and 2) Dragon Ball Z ripoffs.
Amen, hallelujia! :) Finally, someone who agrees with me. I personally loathe Toriyama's style. In my opinion, changing character designers was a huge advantage for Chrono Cross. In a game with so many characters, you really need a character designer with a style that isn't so confining.

I personally like Cross more than Trigger; it might be because I played Cross first, but Trigger just didn't appeal to me as much. Cross has one of the most memorable atmospheres I've encountered in a game. It has a very distinctive style to it: colorful, bright, beachy - almost a bit Polynesian. A fun juxtaposition to the dark nature of the plot! I just love the game's quirks and eccentricities. The fact it's it's a bit "outside of the box" and did away with a few RPG norms is what makes it so refreshing to me. I loved the fact I didn't have to spend time grinding for levels and the ability to customize my characters with interchangeable elements as opposed to set skills. My only complaint with the large cast is that some of the characters were just awful, stat-wise. :P Gave me no incentive to use them, especially when some characters were just all-around amazing (like Harle).

For reference, though, my taste is a bit non-standard; I love quirky games like the Shadow Hearts series and adore the Suikoden series, which is known for it's large casts. My somewhat off-beat taste probably has a bit to do with why I prefer Cross over Trigger. :)
« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 02:29:40 pm by Zelbess »

alfadorredux

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Re: Why the Chrono Cross Hate?
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2009, 02:45:23 pm »
Add my name to the list of People Who Think That Toriyama Needs To Take Remedial Art Classes.

Seriously, I have never understood why anyone likes his art.  It's ugly.

maggiekarp

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Re: Why the Chrono Cross Hate?
« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2009, 03:12:47 pm »
Sometimes he draws some ugly dudes but for the most part his art is really whimsical and pretty in an old-fashioned way. Even if you think Magus looks SO ugly, you can't deny the monsters from Chrono Trigger are awesome looking and somewhat silly.

I think that's why most people really loved the turn into a cat sidequest, it was SILLY, like Chrono Trigger was.

alfadorredux

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Re: Why the Chrono Cross Hate?
« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2009, 03:41:30 pm »
Very well, I'll amend that to "Take Remedial Classes in Drawing the Human Figure", on the basis that I don't find Frog's character art nearly so ugly as that for the human characters.  But at the very least, someone needs to tell Toriyama that the semi-superdeformed-hypermuscular-pseudomidget style he's so fond of went out twenty years ago and isn't ever likely to come back in.

Truthordeal

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Re: Why the Chrono Cross Hate?
« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2009, 07:44:44 pm »
Very well, I'll amend that to "Take Remedial Classes in Drawing the Human Figure", on the basis that I don't find Frog's character art nearly so ugly as that for the human characters.  But at the very least, someone needs to tell Toriyama that the semi-superdeformed-hypermuscular-pseudomidget style he's so fond of went out twenty years ago and isn't ever likely to come back in.

I wish people would quit automatically associating Toriyama with his work on Dragon Ball Z and judging his entire body of work on it. And yes, the cut scenes themselves for CT were rip-offs of DBZ because it was the biggest show in the world at the time.

Anyone here who's played Dragon Quest 8 knows that his character and monster design for that game was awesome. Angelo's probably one of the coolest looking characters ever. Yangus was ugly, but it fit his character.

If he brings that to Chrono Break, it could easily overtake Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross, IMO.

V_Translanka

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Re: Why the Chrono Cross Hate?
« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2009, 09:38:40 pm »
Very well, I'll amend that to "Take Remedial Classes in Drawing the Human Figure", on the basis that I don't find Frog's character art nearly so ugly as that for the human characters.  But at the very least, someone needs to tell Toriyama that the semi-superdeformed-hypermuscular-pseudomidget style he's so fond of went out twenty years ago and isn't ever likely to come back in.

I wish people would quit automatically associating Toriyama with his work on Dragon Ball Z and judging his entire body of work on it. And yes, the cut scenes themselves for CT were rip-offs of DBZ because it was the biggest show in the world at the time.

Anyone here who's played Dragon Quest 8 knows that his character and monster design for that game was awesome. Angelo's probably one of the coolest looking characters ever. Yangus was ugly, but it fit his character.

If he brings that to Chrono Break, it could easily overtake Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross, IMO.

Amen to THAT! I don't even think Toriyama was really involved in the cut-scenes, which are the ONLY REAL BASIS for those, "OMG, it's DBZ again! LOL" arguments. His is a simplistic style, which lends itself to comparisons, I'll give them that, but it's still awesome and unique...

RySenkari

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Re: Why the Chrono Cross Hate?
« Reply #29 on: July 02, 2009, 02:03:39 am »
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1. No recurring playable characters.

Well, I'd have sure liked to play with Crono and co. again, but I liked the characters I was given. Not all RPGs can have the same characters come back from game to game, hell, most don't. :) Maybe Chrono 3 will let us if they ever get around to making it.

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2. Small game world is bland, cramped, and monotonous.

It's hardly bland, though El Nido did seem small to me. It was still a pretty big world once you explored everything. I guess I just miss my Epoch.

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3. Element system removes almost all character individuality in combat and contributes to a Pokemon-like classification of characters by "color."

I liked the element system, actually. It led to plenty of individuality, Glenn wasn't like Razzly, I can tell you that! Element system was quite fun.

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4. Character design is far inferior to Akira Toriyama's work in Chrono Trigger.

Eh, it was about the same, really. There weren't any stand-out characters like Schala was in Chrono Trigger, but that's just my opinion. I liked quite a few of the characters.

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5. Huge portions of the game consist entirely of empty filler in the form of dull fetch quests and monster hunting exercises.

Has this person played Lufia II? I really liked how Chrono Cross progressed. There are dull fetch quests in every RPG.

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6. Characters limited to three or less unique tech skills.

This I had a problem with, though giving all 40+ characters eight techs might've been a lot of work. I missed the old game, though.

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7. Virtually no double and triple techs.

This I also had a problem with. I miss those techs. Again, might've been more work than it was worth.

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8. Development for the majority of character is severely lacking or completely nonexistant.

I noticed this a bit, but all the characters I cared about were developed well.

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9. Most characters are silly and pointless.

Some, not most. I liked even the silly characters though, they were funny!

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10. Some plot "revelations" (like Lynx being Serge's father) make little sense and seem like pointless afterthoughts designed to cover for poor scenario writing.

Eh, this is entirely subjective. I liked most of the Chrono Cross-original plot revelations, though I agree that some of them were BS.

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11. Much less varied, interesting, and memorable musical score.

I LOVED Chrono Trigger's score, though this game was quite good as well. Not equally good, in my opinion, but still quite good.

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12. Numerous hints that Chrono Trigger characters were killed off in inappropriate, unsatisfying, and difficult to believe fashions.

This I completely agree with. I've gotten into HUGE arguments with people over Chrono, Marle, and Lucca's deaths. You mean to tell me that someone who can punch Cthulhu in the face can be killed that easily? BS BS BS BS BS. This was by far the biggest beef I had with the game, and it really killed my enjoyment of the game from a story standpoint, though the gameplay and other aspects were still quite fun. It doesn't mean that Chrono Cross sucks, though. It just means that in my opinion, that aspect of the story sucks. You can obviously defend it if you want, it's a completely subjective matter and I'm sure arguments over it will go on forever.

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13. Schala's appearence in Chrono Cross (wrong hair color, clothing, facial structure, etc) is a blatent continuity error.

Well, her appearance can easily be fanwanked away, but God did I hate what they did to Schala in Chrono Cross. My second biggest beef with the game. You mean to tell me that Schala's clone is Kid and that she suffered for 13,000 years? Dirty pool, DIIIIIIIIIRTY POOL. Whatever, I reject your reality and substitute my own. Hopefully someone resurrects Playable Schala before I die in 60 years.

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14. Supposed creation of humans by Lavos is another glaring continuity error.

This story idea I quite liked (and you can actually infer it from Chrono Trigger). No problem here.

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15. No interesting flying vehicle (like the Epoch) for players to explore the world in.

I had a bit of a problem with this too, but Chrono Cross is a different game, and the boat was nice, I suppose.

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16. Magus character completely invalidated and insulted through implication the he wasn't the one to find his long-lost sister.

Another thing I had KIND of a problem with, Guile is kind of cool but they should've made the Magus connection clearer. Again, subjective.

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17. No strong villian. Lynx's motives are about as clear as mud and the threat posed by the final bosses is far too vague to be tension-building.

They TRIED to make Lynx a strong villain by implying that he killed Lucca (I guess they had the same worries). He does do some pretty nasty things, and once you hit the Dead Sea (and later Chronopolis), FATE gets quite compelling as a villain. And then you get Lavos' big return, which was also pretty fun. The game's villains were fine.

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18. Final boss posesses no unique attacks at all, despite the perfect opportunity to make use of the classic Lavos attacks from Chrono Trigger.

Final boss was the Time Devourer dragon, dude. Fighting the Lavos Time Devourer isn't the idea, the idea is using the Chrono Cross. It might've been nice to see some Lavos throwback attacks but it didn't bother me.

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19. "Good" ending is pseudo-mystical nonsense followed by a brief movie that makes no sense whatsoever. Schala in modern Japan? What were they thinking?

This I agree with. Hated the ending.

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20. Fewer alternate endings, none of which as as clever or interesting as the Chrono Trigger alternate endings.

This I also agree with, though alternate endings aren't really a gamebreaker for me.

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21. Character have to physically hit enemies in combat before they can cast spells and use tech skills, which makes little sense and slows combat considerably.

I didn't mind this. Combat WAS a bit slow, but the battle system was fun and more interesting than the one in Chrono Trigger. At least the battles weren't as slow as Final Fantasy IX.

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22. Fixed rate level advancement removes all the fun and challenge of "building up" favorite characters.

I didn't like the fixed level advancement either. I don't mind grinding. I know some people hate it, so this is another subjective type thing. Maybe if there was the option to grind...?

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23. Loading times before and after combats are ridiculously long. Unlike Chrono Trigger, which had none.

Playstation games in general had problems with this. Can't be helped.

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24. Characters behave illogically. Those that joined your party when you were Serge will not help you when you are Lynx, even though they often know that you are the same person.

Didn't bother me much.

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25. Boring "weapon-forging" system largely eliminates fun of hunting down interesting weapons, armor, etc.

But it's fun to hunt down the materials! It's the same difference, really. I liked it.

IN CONCLUSION: I personally thought parts of the Chrono Cross storyline to be quite intriguing, though I was REVULSED at how they handled the connections to Chrono Trigger and I'll continue to be revulsed until they fix it in a Chrono 3. From a gameplay standpoint, the games are equally fantastic. I liked Chrono Trigger a lot, A LOT more, but the matter is totally subjective. Chrono Cross was a fantastic game, it didn't suck by any means. Judging by sales, of course, is improper (Transformers 2 will outsell Star Trek for Christ's sake), it's ultimately a personal taste matter.