Author Topic: Fuck Sexism  (Read 118891 times)

Truthordeal

  • Dimension Crosser (+1000)
  • *
  • Posts: 1133
  • Dunno what's supposed to go here. Oh now I see.
    • View Profile
    • Youtube Account
Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2009, 01:12:13 pm »
I don't see why you're getting upset with me over my beliefs, or more importantly, my articulating of them.

I've stated before, I don't like abortion. I don't like the concept of someone burning a fetus to death. But I also see the other side of the coin, and more often than not support a woman's right to choose.

Is it so appalling that someone disagrees with your beliefs that you have to label them as a right wing nutcase, religious zealot, bigot or any of the other fabulous names posted below?

BTW, I'm not considered a conservative. I'm considered a libertarian. I love the free market, but want women to have the right to choose, gays to be allowed to marry and honestly, I don't care if pot gets legalized or not. I'm still not gonna smoke it, but it could do a lot of good, economically and humanitarian wise.

And, thanks for the article FW. I understand there are extreme cases for late term and partial birth abortions. But those cases should remain in the extremities.

Another thing here though. I wish people(not directed at you guys, specifically) would quit trying to draw moral equivalencies between people and other historical events.

Case in point, from the wikipedia article
Quote
Columnist Jack Cashill compared the trial to the Nuremberg Trials of Nazi war criminals,[29] while NYU Professor Jacob Appel described Tiller as "a genuine hero who ranks alongside Susan B. Anthony and Martin Luther King Jr. in the pantheon of defenders of human liberty."

I'm reasonable enough to know that Tiller wasn't exactly Dr. Mengelee. I also know that he wasn't even close to the stature that MLK was, and to make either of these comparisons is a crime against logic.

Zephira

  • Bounty Hunter
  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1541
  • You're not afraid of the dark, are you?...Are you?
    • View Profile
    • My deviantArt page
Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2009, 02:28:44 pm »
The reason I get so upset over your beliefs is there are others in your belief who are trying to abolish abortion completely, and the majority of practitioners in your belief make it very hard for a woman to get an abortion at all. The availability of an abortion is like like a safety net (albeit an expensive one). If that is made completely illegal, I fear that I might wind up accidentally pregnant and unable to fix it. And before you pull up the 'irresponsible teenager' card again, I wouldn't engage in any sexual activity unless fully protected. I've put too much time into my college and future to career to throw it away.

Sure, articulate your beliefs, but know that people will be upset by it, just how we upset you with our beliefs.

Truthordeal

  • Dimension Crosser (+1000)
  • *
  • Posts: 1133
  • Dunno what's supposed to go here. Oh now I see.
    • View Profile
    • Youtube Account
Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2009, 02:38:48 pm »
I understand that. And I think its more a matter of perception than anything. The media will get the most vocal Christans, i.e., Pat Robertson, to talk about abortion to stir things up. They do the same with people like Nancy Pelosi on the economy or torture to get their ratings up.

Eventually everyone sees that opposite side(Christians, liberals) by the figureheads that the media picked out, even though in most cases they don't represent the people they say they do.

ZeaLitY

  • Entity
  • End of Timer (+10000)
  • *
  • Posts: 10797
  • Spring Breeze Dancin'
    • View Profile
    • My Compendium Staff Profile
Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2009, 04:20:20 pm »
Look, theres a reason that my religious beliefs limit sexual relations to married couples.  Not because my religion is being an ass to unmarried people but because it usually just works out better that way.

This is a typical example of anti-human religious policy. It speaks leagues about how pessimistic and negative faith's view of humanity is. The rule precludes the idea of mature, adult humans who can have consensual sex for their own mutual pleasure without procreation or deeper involvement. The religious point to irresponsible teens and unwanted pregnancies and cry foul, evoking their idea of human corruption and original sin, with salvation only available through their God. Then, with the veneer of trying to help the situation, they promote abstinence, which only makes the issue worse by cutting out contraceptives and safe sex from the equation, in turn creating more unwanted pregnancies and sexually-transmitted disease instances. And then they cry fowl again! Here's a fantastic example:

http://digg.com/world_news/Pope_Benedict_XVI_is_a_Global_Health_Nightmare

Congratulations, Pope Benedict! Your speech against condoms and effort to restrict their distribution will no doubt contribute to AIDs incidence and unplanned pregnancies all over Africa. The Bush administration did the same by tying federal dollars in with abstinence programs for schools, and they fell flat. And all of this comes from your faith's dick view of humanity and antiquated idea of morality. Anti-human.

Quote
And, ZeaLitY, seriously, if I saw those people doing that, I would personally go up and call them dumbshits to their faces.  For they, just as often as other things, are an extremely personal insult to my beliefs.

Hah, and they'd meanwhile call you a dumbshit for not being hardcore enough to take your stone age beliefs to the streets and protest like they do. It seems you're still part of Nixon's silent majority, oh-ho! If only rational thinkers and scientists could choose what and what not to "accept" about the universe as you Christians pick and choose what to endorse from the Bible. Not man enough to take the truly controversial bits, eh? You'd better hope God doesn't pull an Abraham-Isaac to test your meager faith!

Quote from: Zelbess
Yet it's the woman who is often given the scarlet letter of shame, and labeled as "irresponsible", "stupid" or "whore". The man's involvement in her condition is often completey overlooked.

[Oops! Didn't use something in correct context here.] Anyway, yeah, this is a terrible situation.

Quote from: Truthordeal
I've stated before, I don't like abortion. I don't like the concept of someone burning a fetus to death.

It would behoove you to develop a reasonable foundation for your position. Pro-choicers have one based on science, human development, and biology; pro-lifers are usually of the "my pastor told me its bad so it's bad" variety. What really strikes me is how the abortion question starkly illuminates religion as a naked emperor. When I was in the LDS church, I thought, "why is there a debate on this? Shouldn't the Prophet or whoever ask God when the spirit enters the fetus? Is it conception; is it birth? They should figure it out and then make a conclusion." Haha, was I a sap, or what?!

Quote from: Truthordeal
Is it so appalling that someone disagrees with your beliefs that you have to label them as a right wing nutcase, religious zealot, bigot or any of the other fabulous names posted below?

Even if you aren't running out and committing acts of domestic terrorism, you're still promulgating an anti-human view that's been complicit in the ruining of several lives. This is like when a group of guys are around and someone makes a sexist joke about the female period with full misogynist rancor. If you don't speak up, you might as well be affirming it. I've not hesitated in the past to make conversations suddenly turn awkward with my objections to things like that, and neither should people hesitate to call out policies that stigmatize and endanger women, derail entire lives, and promote baseless religious ideologies.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2009, 06:02:51 pm by ZeaLitY »

Lord J Esq

  • Moon Stone J
  • Hero of Time (+5000)
  • *
  • Posts: 5463
  • ^_^ "Ayla teach at college level!!"
    • View Profile
Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2009, 05:43:17 pm »
I understand that. And I think its more a matter of perception than anything. The media will get the most vocal Christans, i.e., Pat Robertson, to talk about abortion to stir things up. They do the same with people like Nancy Pelosi on the economy or torture to get their ratings up.

Eventually everyone sees that opposite side(Christians, liberals) by the figureheads that the media picked out, even though in most cases they don't represent the people they say they do.

I see what you're doing. When you're outmaneuvered in an argument, you resort to saying that everybody on all sides is being misled (in this case by "the media"). Then you list some major right-wing personalities and essentially offer them up as a sacrifice in the debate, implying that the millions of impressionable conservatives who listen to those personalities are not extremists but are just plain good folk.

I have no doubt that if you were feeling empowered rather than outgunned at this point in the argument, you would be pressing ahead with your anti-choice views in their true form. As it is you are trying to tailor your delivery to suit your opponents, without actually ceding any ground.

You would not win any more arguments than you already do, but you would get more credit for being honest and logically consistent rather than trying to offer ideological compromises you don't really believe in.

One of Lord J's comments on Battlestar Galactica tailored the word "slut" to describe a male character, and it was satisfying.

ZeaLitY...first of all my comment wasn't even on this site. It was in my own journal. Second of all, I felt so bad about using the word "slut" in any context--male or female--that I retracted it on my own volition just a few hours later. I guess I can't stop you from referring to my original usage, but, if you must, then I want to make clear to the community that that's not a word I am comfortable using, which you implied.

KebreI

  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1607
  • A true man never dies, even when he's killed
    • View Profile
Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2009, 05:53:43 pm »
Quote from: Zelbess
An inherently sexist attitude is revealed in this one line. "Irresponsible teenager" - singular. Last time I checked, women don't get pregnant on their own. Society loves to dump blame on the woman and often wholly leave men out of the picture. Women have to deal with carrying the child and the life-altering consequences of pregnancy. Men? They can run, and frequently do. Yet it's the woman who is often given the scarlet letter of shame, and labeled as "irresponsible", "stupid" or "whore". The man's involvement in her condition is often completey overlooked.
But as you have just shown those woman then in turn blame the men, after all there are responsible. True Woman get more of the shame but to say the men deserve it is just as sexist.

Then again I will never be happy with the current set up for abortions. I am in support of abortion in more cases then just rape, harmful for the mother, etc. If she doesn't want it then its her body. I am conflicted with that statement though because it may be her body but it's the fathers child as well. In no way do I believe that one persons choice should prevent hen from having the child. The other way too, if the father wants an abortion but the mother wants the child then she should have it. With modern medicine though the embryo could be given to another host in the earliest of stages, but still that's hardly a solution.

Zephira

  • Bounty Hunter
  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1541
  • You're not afraid of the dark, are you?...Are you?
    • View Profile
    • My deviantArt page
Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2009, 05:57:17 pm »
Then let it be a group decision. It's something boyfriend/girlfriend or husband/wife should work out together. But along that same line, it should be the family that makes the decision of whether or not to abort, not the government, church groups, or whoever else.

ZeaLitY

  • Entity
  • End of Timer (+10000)
  • *
  • Posts: 10797
  • Spring Breeze Dancin'
    • View Profile
    • My Compendium Staff Profile
Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2009, 06:01:47 pm »
One of Lord J's comments on Battlestar Galactica tailored the word "slut" to describe a male character, and it was satisfying.

ZeaLitY...first of all my comment wasn't even on this site. It was in my own journal. Second of all, I felt so bad about using the word "slut" in any context--male or female--that I retracted it on my own volition just a few hours later. I guess I can't stop you from referring to my original usage, but, if you must, then I want to make clear to the community that that's not a word I am comfortable using, which you implied.

Well, damn. I figured this was coming. You need to put production of "The Quotable J" on the fast-track.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2009, 06:06:28 pm by ZeaLitY »

Daniel Krispin

  • Guest
Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #23 on: July 05, 2009, 06:23:35 pm »
Alright, adoption, sure. Let your child grow up in what's essentially a human farm and drain money and resources that could have been used for better purposes. I'm sure that kid would be real happy to know that you gave him away and he has no family.
Yeah, adoption is great since you're taking someone else's kid and not contributing to overpopulation. But, wouldn't this overpopulation thing be better managed if the people who orphaned that child had just aborted in the first place?


Actually, it doesn't usually affect the child in that way. My own mother was adopted, and I'll have you know that there is a connection between her and her adopted parents as strong as any other familial bond.

Okay, going completely abstinent until you marry is pretty noble. But, what if you never marry? What if you never find Mr/Mrs. Right? I highly doubt that even you would want to die a virgin in such a case.

Why not?



You know what, forget it. Too many words. Simply put, my frustration is the utterly anti-intellectual tenor of these debates. For all their appeal to science, it's no more in that province than the true liberty was a part of the Reign of Terror. You have to stop assuming some sort of self-righteous high-ground in these debates, as though because of the creed you follow you suddenly have brighter eyes than the rest. That's the same problem that gave us the crusades and every other war of ideology. The assumption that one must be apriori correct. And, more than this, painting all the other's with a demon's brush. It's not good intellectualism, and it's certainly not good science.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2009, 06:46:41 pm by Daniel Krispin »

Zelbess

  • Porrean (+50)
  • *
  • Posts: 68
    • View Profile
Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2009, 08:36:14 pm »
Quote
But as you have just shown those woman then in turn blame the men, after all there are responsible. True Woman get more of the shame but to say the men deserve it is just as sexist.
In no way did I insinuate that men alone "deserve the shame"; you are imagining some sort of bias in my post that is simply not there. :P I made no mention of women desiring the majority of blame placing upon men; I did, however, make a genuine social criticism on the fact that society views an unwanted pregnancy in a completely skewed way. More often than not, the woman is lambasted as "stupid", "irresponsible", and told statements like "You messed up, now live with the consequences", completely overlooking the male's contribution the situation as well as his responsibility to take care of the child. Look up the term "slut shaming" sometime; it applies perfectly to situations like these. The fact is, men are responsible for the situation equally as much as the woman, yet our culture frequently chooses to overlook that fact. That was why I pointed out the use of singular nouns in IAmSerge's post; it completely overlooked the fact that it "takes two to tango" and was a prime example of the culturally ingrained sexist bias when it comes to criticizing teenage pregnancy.  Both sexes should be included; if two people had unprotected sex and ended up with a pregnancy, then both should be hailed as irresponsible and take responsibility for their actions, not just the woman because she is the one who must deal with the longterm consequences, not only due to pregnancy, but because of culturally ingrained gender roles that dictate the woman is supposed to be a child's primary caretaker.

I personally do not think sexual activity - premarital or otherwise - should be "shamed", nor should unwanted pregnancy; I think attaching a stigma to human sexuality is ridiculous. But at the same time, I think if the criticism must exist (and it will until the public's traditional attitudes towards sex miraculously revolutionizes itself), it should be applied to both sexes involved.

Quote from: Zephira
Then let it be a group decision. It's something boyfriend/girlfriend or husband/wife should work out together. But along that same line, it should be the family that makes the decision of whether or not to abort, not the government, church groups, or whoever else.
Well said! :) My only beef is that the men should only have a say in what the woman should do with her unwanted pregnancy if he plans to support the child and be an active participant and father in it's life. If he plans on bailing and denying his responsibilities, then his opinion should mean squat.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2009, 09:12:15 pm by Zelbess »

Daniel Krispin

  • Guest
Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2009, 09:24:36 pm »
What if it's not sexuality per se, but rather the indulgence of human desire where there is the danger of it possessing the participant. I'm just thinking what the stoics might have to say on this, and they, too, would attach a stigma, but the stigma is more upon the idea of pleasure for its own sake. They would say let things indulge their needs, but nothing more. The way most treat it is in the way of it being something uncontrolled, hence the stoics would disagree with it according to their moral framework. What would you say to such a thing as that?

However, on another note, since, as you have said, it certainly is the responsability of both parties involved, why is the modern response then to absolve both of the responsibility (ie. have an abortion), rather than enforcing responsibility upon both? Personally I would much prefer the second option. Absolving people of responsibility is not a good way of running a society - if you will, there's my social commentary. This is one of the perils involved in abortions. Not to mention pregnancies in which abortions might be desirable are for the most part quite avoidable and, as you have said, it does take two. Except in instances such as rape, there is a willingness in both parties and, in some manner, in engaging in such activity they do enter into a sort of social contract in which their actions have reprocussions. The question of whether or not they want it after the fact is moot, in doing what they do - most especially unexusable since there are such methods as birth control - they have the responsibility for the outcome. To admit abortion, save for the most extreme circumstances, might be a disrespect of the woman.

Yes, you heard that right. It may be a disrespect. I believe it is Kant - though I only know this via my brother's ramblings - that speaks to the effect that criminials are punished because we respect them as humans. We act in accordance with the law to honour their choices. They have broken the law knowingly, hence to respect that decision, their human faculty of choice, we punish them as the law dictates. To remove that dehumanizes them. Likewise, becoming preganant is almost always done knowingly - that is, the knowledge that there is that risk. Barring more extreme cases (and it's better to argue the rules, rather than the exceptions), this is how it is. To remove the consequence of those actions is to disrespect the choice that was made, and in effect dehumanizes the person by removing the consequences to her decesion to have such sex. Such is one philosophical proposal which delves into the nature of choice itself.

So this is one of the problematic elements that arise. The issue is hardly clear-cut. This is a question that might be raised that is neither religious nor scientific, but rather philosophical. Indeed, it doesn't even deal with such issues as the nature of life, but merely with the issue of choice in and of itself. And it's something that I think is difficult to deal with. As I've said, these pregnancies are for the most part quite avoidable. If they have made that choice not to avoid them - through abstinence if that is the moral conviction of the person, or through birth control if that is the case - then to offer them an 'out' is to entirely disregard it.

I suppose I cannot get past the problem of the willingness involved. The choice is made already. If I went out and got myself into a dilemma which would require much work to get out of, and knowingly did so, would you consider it right that I could be excised from that responsibility? Perhaps it is an act of kindness, but even that act of kindness can have severe negitive reprocussions, as the sense of cause and effect can be tainted. Of course, an equal responsibility does lie upon both parties. These are social issues that are all connected to the issue of abortion that are not often addressed.

Nor, for that matter, is the validity of the statement that a woman should do as she wishes with her own body. Firstly assuming that one does have absolute supremacy over their own body (something that is taken true apriori, but is never actually proven to be the case... in the natural world this is certainly not the case, seeing as members of a species will sacrifice others for their own survival, in which the sanctity of the individual certainly does not exist), there is the problem of if the child is part of the woman, and if so, at what point does individual identity begin? (This is even putting aside the issue of what is 'life', and if life has sanctity... if it does not, there is nothing ethical wrong with killing... and if there is, what constitutes life?) Indeed, it is made all the more difficult by the fact that we have already assumed individual sanctity in the case of the woman... does this not extend then to an unborn child? And if it does not, then at what point does the growing creature become an individual human? At birth? What makes that the proper line, or are we arbitarially assigning it? Often it appears that while with the one hand we are applying an argument of personal right to the woman, we are ignoring that of the unborn child... and even if we assume that there is a difference... where does that difference occur? And if we cannot judge that difference, do we have a right to then arbitrarially choose?

Furthermore, there is the issue that, genetically, the unborn is not solely the mother's, but has elements of the father in it as well. As such, though it is in the mother, and connected to the mother, it is not entirely the mother's, save by a social distinction we have put on it in this current place and time. But if one wants to speak purely scientifically, there is a strong element of the father within it, and therefore to abort it is to damage something that is part of the father's body as well. Again, it may be inside the mother, but does that physical connection constitute a 'part'? If I lose my arm, is it no longer mine? If you were to cut off my arm, and take it, could you justly claim it because it is no longer connected to me? Therefore even if abortions are to be done, they should be in some part the decision of the father... right? Because though the woman has to undergo nine months of labour, what makes the time and work spent more valuable than the investment the man has put into it? Only if you can make a value judgement and quantify time and the like, and judge it greater and lesser and what not. And by what standards is that being judged to be so onus that it is worth an abortion?

You see, the arguments that are being made rely on a whole host of philosophical preconceptions that are only clear if they are assumed apriori and then has everthing else built upon it. But when one examines these foundations we run into some grave issues. Most importantly, we run into places where decisions and judgements are made rather arbitrarially, which makes any sort of scientific credence difficult to apply. Therefore the ethical nature of abortion really is not something easily solved, and goes beyond only the rights of the woman involved. To hold it only at that is dangerously simplistic at best. I don't think this issue has nearly yet been resolved, not religiously, not scientificially, and certainly not philosophically (probably the most important.)

One thing must be added. And that is the dilemma of views being tainted by preconception. What I mean by this is that Zelbess, for example, speaks that 'unless the traditional public view toward sex changes...', implying a very puritan and old-fashioned viewing of sex. However, when I look at the typical public view, I see it rather free and liberal. Now unless there is a difference between Canada and the US in this, it means that both she and I look at the same system yet, because of our natural bias, focus on different things to endorse our own world-view within that. That should serve as a warning to us that our views of the way things are are always filtered through some fashion of bias, no matter how objective we should hope to be.

I'm not really giving answers with this, because at this point - perhaps at all points - clear and decisive answers are horridly difficult to come by, and even more impossible to agree upon. But they are questions to be considered.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2009, 09:36:51 pm by Daniel Krispin »

alfadorredux

  • Entity
  • Mystical Knight (+700)
  • *
  • Posts: 746
  • Just a purple cat
    • View Profile
Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2009, 09:36:57 pm »
You know, I've been watching this discussion for a couple of iterations now, and what bugs me is that most of the people posting here (not all, but most) seem to assume that birth control is 100% effective. Guess what? It isn't. Not even vasectomy or tubal ligation is an absolute guarantee that a woman won't get pregnant (the failure rate for either of those is on the order of 0.01%, IIRC, but it does happen). Both parties can take absolutely every precaution against pregnancy and still have it happen.

ZeaLitY

  • Entity
  • End of Timer (+10000)
  • *
  • Posts: 10797
  • Spring Breeze Dancin'
    • View Profile
    • My Compendium Staff Profile
Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2009, 09:38:30 pm »
You know, I've been watching this discussion for a couple of iterations now, and what bugs me is that most of the people posting here (not all, but most) seem to assume that birth control is 100% effective. Guess what? It isn't. Not even vasectomy or tubal ligation is an absolute guarantee that a woman won't get pregnant (the failure rate for either of those is on the order of 0.01%, IIRC, but it does happen). Both parties can take absolutely every precaution against pregnancy and still have it happen.

All the more reason to have legal abortion. I even know someone who did this after her birth control failed. If abortion hadn't been available, her life would have been significantly impaired.

Zelbess

  • Porrean (+50)
  • *
  • Posts: 68
    • View Profile
Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2009, 09:53:47 pm »
Quote
However, on another note, since, as you have said, it certainly is the responsability of both parties involved, why is the modern response then to absolve both of the responsibility (ie. have an abortion), rather than enforcing responsibility upon both? Personally I would much prefer the second option. Absolving people of responsibility is not a good way of running a society - if you will, there's my social commentary. This is one of the perils involved in abortions. Not to mention pregnancies in which abortions might be desirable are for the most part quite avoidable and, as you have said, it does take two. Except in instances such as rape, there is a willingness in both parties and, in some manner, in engaging in such activity they do enter into a sort of social contract in which their actions have reprocussions. The question of whether or not they want it after the fact is moot, in doing what they do - most especially unexusable since there are such methods as birth control - they have the responsability for the outcome. Or, so it should be, I think. To admit abortion, save for the most extreme circumstances, is a disrespect of the woman.
Look, the fact is a woman (or man, if he chooses to stay involved) should not have to sacrifice the outcome of her entire life for one irresponsible moment or lapse of judgment. Forcing a child upon a woman or couple and saying, "Ha, bet you'll learn your lesson now!" is not the right approach. What I mean by "responsibility" is both parties owning up to the fact they created a potential life together, and making the best choice for themselves and their situation, whether that be keeping the child, adoption or abortion. Responsibility involves admitting their mistake and taking the proper steps to educate themselves and learn better, more responsible behaviors as well. You may prefer the option of having the child, but it's not your right to say what a woman should or should not do with her life and her body. Later in your post, you argue whether abortion is morally justified or not, and how complex the situation is; the fact is, because of the many different approaches to morality, there will never be an answer wholly agreed upon. That is why it's so essential to leave the choice open and let the women (or couple) decide for themselves and act in accordance to their own beliefs and moral system.

As for the father having a say in the fate of his child, to me, he only reserves that right if he plans to man-up and be a father to the child, emotionally and financially supporting it in life. If he chooses to abandon the woman while she is pregnant, then to me, he gives up his right to have a say in what the woman will do concerning her pregnancy. You can't just abandon your potential child and then claim, "Well, even though I don't plan on raising the child, I don't like the idea of my genetic spawn being aborted. Because it is half mine, I should be able to have a say yet dump all the responsibility on my wife/girlfriend".

Quote
You know, I've been watching this discussion for a couple of iterations now, and what bugs me is that most of the people posting here (not all, but most) seem to assume that birth control is 100% effective. Guess what? It isn't. Not even vasectomy or tubal ligation is an absolute guarantee that a woman won't get pregnant (the failure rate for either of those is on the order of 0.01%, IIRC, but it does happen). Both parties can take absolutely every precaution against pregnancy and still have it happen.
Very true! My father had a vasectomy, and it spontaneously reversed itself and my mom ended up pregnant. Not to mention, the birth control pill's failure rate is placed at about 1 to 5%, when used properly! Women increase this risk by not taking their pill at the same time everyday, missing pills, or taking antibiotics while on the pill. Certain other medications and supplements can lower it's effectiveness. It's definitely still very much up to chance, it seems. :P Discovery Health Channel's show "I Didn't Know I was Pregnant" is very well living proof of that. A lot of those women were on the pill, had husbands with vasectomies or were deemed infertile, and still became pregnant.

Daniel Krispin

  • Guest
Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2009, 09:57:27 pm »
You know, I've been watching this discussion for a couple of iterations now, and what bugs me is that most of the people posting here (not all, but most) seem to assume that birth control is 100% effective. Guess what? It isn't. Not even vasectomy or tubal ligation is an absolute guarantee that a woman won't get pregnant (the failure rate for either of those is on the order of 0.01%, IIRC, but it does happen). Both parties can take absolutely every precaution against pregnancy and still have it happen.

All the more reason to have legal abortion. I even know someone who did this after her birth control failed. If abortion hadn't been available, her life would have been significantly impaired.

And by what standard do you consider the life impaired? Don't yell at me, it's a valid question. You're assuming your own standard of worth to be correct, after all. But you must consider that the impairment of a life according to how you measure success might not be evil absolutely. This is the error of many of your arguments, in that you base them upon such an assumption that the actualization of life in this manner is the highest good. What if it is not? Or, what if the value of the unborn is greater than that of the impairment? That is, it is a question of value and value judgement. You are setting a very high value upon certain successes of life, but you are making those judgments arbitrarially according to your preference. That is a difficult and dangerous way of arguing. By what exterior measure do you hold up these two things and say that this is better than that, that this is more valuable then that? You cannot assume it self-evident or that if one disagrees it's from a backward mind. Where is the proof for this?

Like I said, don't yell, it is a valid question, because it's something you don't address at all. You treat your statement as though it's a given that your assertion that 'life would have been impaired' is far worse a thing than the abortion. But in some ways you're quite often begging the question. Your solutions are contained in your premises, and they all work together very neatly, but only if you believe things to be as you believe them to be, which is a conundrum and rather illogical to those who don't.