Fuck Sexism

[Lord J Esq]

I stopped arguing because you guys care WAY too much about this shit.

People thrive on validation; you didn't get any here; now you're resorting to attacking other people's passions. I've encountered that tactic many times; it is very poor form.

I don't think you're working out on these forums, Serge. Maybe you should go find some other place to hang out, or at least limit your discussion to Chrono-related topics.

Springtime of youth my ass....

You're trying to start a fight, aren't you? I remember that tone. Not an intellectual or ideological fight; you're trying to start the online version of a plain old fistfight. Grow up or get lost, won't you?

Back on topic...I am really not interested in a debate on male circumcision, so I think I'll bow out for now. I'll check back in when the topic changes again.

[Truthordeal]

Despite the fact that his prior post proves he's a statist, Zeality of course is trying to tell me how to be a decent libertarian. Not a shock, seeing as how he's probably the most rabid atheist on here and constantly tries to tell me how to be religious. And of course, I'm ignorant since I don't accept your worldview.

But for once at least we have something we can agree on and that would be Teddy Roosevelt. He was the bomb.

And yes I can take his position on anti-trust matters as a libertarian, because the 1870's-1900's were riddled with the government's suppression of labor unions and allowing corrupt enterprises to build monopolies. Right now its easy to hate labor unions, but the fact of the matter is that the pendulum swung too far the other way, so that now the government is suppressing enterprises and allowing corruption among the labor unions, which led to Detroit ending up in the shape its in.

If we could repeat the economics of the 1920's, with all of the modern protections on the stock market and sans the draconian tariffs, both of which were the primary causes of the Great Depression, we might not have been hit so hard this business cycle.

But I've gone off topic again, haven't I?

In any event, circumcision's the least of our worries right now.

[FaustWolf]

So by having these arguments on the internets, we are actually doing something about the problems that occur in the world.

Much agreed. Certainly a type of soft power, and still below the power of movies, videogames, and other pop culture artifacts to reshape society -- mostly for the limited audience we get on a videogame board for a series without a single new entry in 10 years. Hopefully the kind of arguments we've been having are thought provoking enough that the audience goes off and starts researching the issues themselves, to better define their personal stances.

I think we've got a pretty good chance of having a good economic/health care/environmental debate, if someone wants to start that up. I'm actually really surprised at the criticism of Obama's cap & trade proposal for cutting carbon emissions; it's a far more market-oriented solution to the perceived carbon emissions crisis than taxation or pollution abatement requirements, and is typically advocated in undergrad econ textbooks.

However, I've always felt the government ought to hire all the unemployed to plant trees, which should take care of the perceived carbon crisis through their own physiology. Shazam, two problems solved at once!

[Truthordeal]

To be honest, FW, I don't know enough about the cap and trade plan, its implications or why it is being used to argue for or against it.

I don't know much about the environmental debate as a whole, except what I've heard about DDT's help in Africa. Until last year I wasn't even aware that people, reasonable, respected people considered the fact that man made global warming didn't exist or that there were theories regarding climate change as cyclical, like the economy.

My public school education basically hid those arguments from me for years, and now after 10 or so years of straight global warming indoctrination, I don't know what to believe. All I know is that I don't trust Al Gore any more to tell the US how to react on climate change.

[FaustWolf]

I actually had an econ professor who worried the global warming consensus wasn't backed up with enough evidence, and we might be worrying over something we really have no control over. His main issue was with the "hockey stick," and the fact that I haven't done enough research on it myself is why I lean toward calling it the "perceived carbon emissions crisis." If you're interested in examining possible flaws in the prevailing Global Warming consensus, the "hockey stick debate" is a good place to start.

Still, it seems to me that there's a definite scientific relationship between the amount of carbon in the atmosphere and global temperature, Venus being the prime example of a runaway greenhouse effect. If humans don't have an appreciable amount of control over the environment (compared to the Sun) and Earth is just destined to become like Venus no matter what we do, all the more reason to find other home planets.

EDIT: Briefly looking at the wiki article, it seems that the scientists behind the hockey stick have responded to the questioning of their methodology, and their original conclusions are pretty robust in light of new datasets and such. Interesting stuff to be sure, and everyone would do well to educate themselves more on the subject.

[ZaichikArky]

However, I've always felt the government ought to hire all the unemployed to plant trees, which should take care of the perceived carbon crisis through their own physiology. Shazam, two problems solved at once!

We think alike, Mr Faust. I always thought similar things. I really think that FDR's public works projects did a lot of good for the country and it would be really nice if Obama could do something very similar. New jobs... wooo! I like to take it a step further, if you will. I always approved of how in the good ole days, the government made prisoners actually... you know... WORK. I think that this needs to be employed again. The prisoners should be made to plant trees and clean up parks. You know, make being a prisoner actually feel like being kept in jail rather than being kept on vacation.

[FaustWolf]

Most agreed, though I'd prefer that prisoners be made to farm and revamp/teardown and rebuild homes for the poor. Since prisoners disproportionately come from the ranks of the poor and their activities can be attributed to...frustration and stuff, making prisoners provide for the poor might promote a self-limiting cycle where the standard of living for the poor gets better with larger prison populations, which in turn causes the prison population to decrease. Damn, I foget the name of the concept now. Self-limiting...feedback...something.

What kind of activities are prisoners engaged in nowadays? Can we find hints of sexism prevailing within Western prison systems? Watching Michael Moore, you'd think prisoners are mostly engaged in telemarketing and taking airline reservations.

[ZeaLitY]

I stopped arguing because you guys care WAY too much about this shit.

Oh, sorry, correction.

You guys care alot about it, but rather than getting out there and doing something about it all you do is sit on your computer and argue about it over the internet, which really gets you no where.
Springtime of youth my ass....

Ha, except my fourth dream is to make a career out of humanism, and if I can't, to promote it other ways by fighting religion and sexism. Public and motivational speaking is on the table, too.

(Uhoh, the secret's out! The religious cabal just updated their conveniently color-coded atheist threat assessment level of me to "Apricot".)

[ZaichikArky]

I will reply to you for my 200th post! I'm moving up the ranks, hurray~

Prisoners do give back to their communities at SOME prisons. There are stories of prisoners being employed as dog trainers for  service dogs. It really helps out the prisoners become motivated to change their lives around. There are some other examples like that that don't come to my head, but I believe the prison system in this country is kind of a mess. Millions of dollars in governmental funds are used to "upkeep" the prison system and to keep people on death row. I'm not sure if I'm a fan or not of execution, however I'm not a fan of all these funds going to prisons. Prisons should be given far less funding. They should be given only the necessary funding to make prison a safe place. There shouldn't be cable or anything promoting entertainment. And there is also the thing about prisoners being forced to do work. Planting trees or farming, doesn't matter, as long as they're being forced to work through their sentences. The committed the crime, they should be made to feel like they're being punished. And I really do think that like the guide dog training, it will give them a new perspective on life. If I ever ran anything, I would really try to push for programs like that.

I've watched a lot of programs about prisons , especially womens prisons, because I find it all rather interesting. Though I don't know the michael moore flick which you speak of... which one is it? I can't really come up with any examples of sexism inside prisons, but that's because I don't really look for that. Sexism is really not something I'm so entirely motivated to argue about just because I think that my country has far bigger problems and sexism actually is low on the totem pole...  

[Truthordeal]

I suppose the homoeroticism normally associated with prison life doesn't count as sexism?

And now I agree with you guys. I can't honestly support the government hiring people, simply because we don't have the money. But using the prison system as a means to find cheap labor...that's both clever and productive.

But before doing any of that, the US prison system needs to take out exercise equipment. That's possibly the most inane and counter-productive
idea anyone ever came up with ever.

[FaustWolf]

Good one truth. I wonder how prevalent the homoeroticism really is in..."The Pokey." Could be a sexist pop culture perpetuation of the "gotta-have-my-sex-even-if-I-have-to-stick-my-pickle...in-a-freaking-PIE" stereotype of men.

Zaich, I think it was The Big One I was referring to. Michael Moore likes to grandstand of course, so he was probably blowing up the perception of prison populations doing things like taking airline reservations.  I realize that I'm entirely uneducated on Western prison systems now.

[Mr Bekkler]

I hate the expression TLDR but this thread is really very long and I'm pretty sure it's just fighting back and forth after the first few pages, which i did read. I just wanted to toss in my idea on the topic the best way I know how: with "fun" comparisons and metaphors.


1. If somebody crashes their car into a tree, and totals the car, should they be allowed to drive again?

Yes. Just because they fucked up once, does not mean they are too immature to control a vehicle.
(Similarly, if someone has an abortion, it doesn't mean they are too immature to have sex. It's called "learning from mistakes" and it happens to a lot of people. Even Christians, Republicans, and men!)

2. If somebody is a vegetable in a hospital bed, with no brain function whatsoever, is it wrong to pull the plug?

No. Hardware with no software is useless and a body with no life is not a person.
(Similarly, a fetus with a heartbeat is human hardware, but the OS doesn't boot till it's pushed out of the baby factory. Unless you remember being in the womb. I sure as fuck don't.)

3. As a man, do I have any right to tell women they can use maxi pads but cannot use tampons?

No. I have no right to tell a woman what to do with her body, nor should I act like I personally know what it's like to experience gender-specific bodily functions that only happen to the opposite gender.
(This relates more to the fact that most of the people who debate about abortion and make laws pertaining to the subject are old, rich, white, male, and are not necessarily upstanding citizens themselves. It's all about the "pro-family" public view.)

You can tell I'm not against abortion by any means, and I do think Pro Choice is a great way to describe the view, albeit a little vague.

[Samopoznanie]

I hate the expression TLDR

I've never even heard of it. Dare I ask what it stands for...? The 1-2 year generation gap strikes again... 

[FaustWolf]

"Too Long, Didn't Read."

...IIRC. AFAIK. 1337.

[IAmSerge]

might I ask you what the former two of the three that you stated stand for?

I could never get IIRC...