Fuck Sexism

[Lord J Esq]

But Magus is cool and a man so its ok. In fact, it shows how non-sexist Kato is because the evil guy is so super sensitive as to care for his sister to such a degree.

I was about half sarcastic in that rant.

It's not that certain behaviors are inherently sexist (although some are). It's that, oftentimes, the thinking by which such behaviors are written is sexist. This usually comes through in the subtext, where emotionally needy women are revealed to be caricatures more than characters.

[Uboa]

Thank you!  I was trying to figure out the best way to articulate that point. 

[Truthordeal]

Given her (possible) past, and (known) future, I think Schala's neediness(wait...was she?) or inferiority complex are completely justified.

But, I suppose that's what you were getting at earlier. I just needed to fully explain that point, roundabout though my method was.

[Uboa]

Given her (possible) past, and (known) future, I think Schala's neediness(wait...was she?) or inferiority complex are completely justified.

But, I suppose that's what you were getting at earlier. I just needed to fully explain that point, roundabout though my method was.

Right, and I agree that it's not necessary that she would have been needy after everything she went through.  Just insane in one way or another.

[Lord J Esq]

Uboa: Off-topic, but by any chance is your user avatar a picture of No Face from Spirited Away? And, is your username connected with the avatar picture in any way?

[Truthordeal]

It looked like that meme owl to me.

Edit: The Orly Owl, that's it.

[FaustWolf]

Look at how badly they handled Celes' relationship with Locke. That could have been done so much better. As it is, it came off like a classified ad in the paper: Woman: In need of Man

But...but she's a GENERAL, not some opera floozy!

But I'll take a look at the script of FFVI now that I found it on teh google, I'm really interested. Did you have a particular weakly-written scene in mind that seemed to lean on common stereotypes J, or did you just get that impression overall? As I recall, Krispin had a high opinion of Celes; I'd be interested to hear his take on the character now that she's been brought into question. I don't remember enough to argue either way, but I did think it was cool how she...hunted for fish for Cid after the world blew up...? I seem to remember something about that, and getting my arse handed to me by zombie dragons during that part of the game.

[skylark]

Wow, I did not mean to sound sexist when I wrote that. O_O

What I meant is that she doesn't really have anybody - she's all alone, technically.

I don't think anybody should be by themselves. It's a horrible feeling. I know.

If it's a friend, lover, pet, anything (within reason, that is), I guess with someone supportive around you , life is always at least a little more bearable. At least that's my stance.

That's all I meant by it.

Of course, if the matter's been cleared, then nevermind. :p

[Uboa]

In reply to Lord J:
Uboa is actually a "character" from the indie game Yume Nikki.  It's a pretty obscure game with an even more obscure plot and a depressing but fitting ending.  Uboa, is a kind of genderless and terrifying ghost that appears suddenly in place of one of the other "characters", leaving open a wide field of speculation on the connection between the two of them.  Of course all of Yume Nikki's "plot" is pretty much speculation.

[Lord J Esq]

Look at how badly they handled Celes' relationship with Locke. That could have been done so much better. As it is, it came off like a classified ad in the paper: Woman: In need of Man

But...but she's a GENERAL, not some opera floozy!

But I'll take a look at the script of FFVI now that I found it on teh google, I'm really interested. Did you have a particular weakly-written scene in mind that seemed to lean on common stereotypes J, or did you just get that impression overall? As I recall, Krispin had a high opinion of Celes; I'd be interested to hear his take on the character now that she's been brought into question. I don't remember enough to argue either way, but I did think it was cool how she...hunted for fish for Cid after the world blew up...? I seem to remember something about that, and getting my arse handed to me by zombie dragons during that part of the game.

Don't get me wrong: Celes is my favorite video game character of all time, which is really saying something. Just thinking about my last sentence, my left hand found its way over my piano, and all of a sudden Celes' theme came out. I'd never played it before...I don't even like Celes' theme. But as far as characters go, she made enough of an impression on me that I would do spontaneous stuff like that even at the mention of her.

Anyhow, to answer your new question: It really is a sign of the progress we've made that you didn't immediately and clearly understand what I meant. Your confusion deserves a fuller reply than I could write tonight, so I'll let it go for now. Perhaps somebody else will cover it for me. If not, and if my schedule permits, I'll write about it in the near future.

[Truthordeal]

My guess is how devoted she was to Locke, to the point where she jumped off a cliff to try to kill herself, and then gave that up when she saw a bird wrapped in his bandanna(or at least a bandanna that looked like his). At the beginning of the World of Ruin half of the game she does seem a little...shall we say, desperate, to find him. Not to mention Locke always swearing to protect her.

Or maybe it has to do with Locke seemingly using her to replace his late fiancee Rachel, even as he finds a way to bring her back from the death?

I can only assume what your getting at. None of that really seems inherently sexist to me, so much as its the makings for a great romance, which easily became probably one of my favorite subplots of FF6.

But of course, Lord J can eloquate his own thoughts much better than I can.

[Thought]

I'm slightly surprised that Samus hasn't had more of a discussion. Sure, she's not a SE character, but she's an odd case that seems worthy of at least a few comments.

On one hand, she is a wonderful example of female excellence: she'll save the day, rescue the princess (well, baby/giant metroid thingy), and break the awesomeness scale while doing it.

But on the other hand, she's still often depicted as a stereotype. In order to survive in a man's world, she's had to lose most traces of being a woman. She's an awesome character who happens to be female, not an awesome female character. Though, to be fair, the games don't give her much character development. And let's not even talk about the bikini shots that are traditional for beating the games under certain time limits.

FF1-The only female PC was White Mage...

Negatory, good buddy. White Mage was male (at least in the original).

4 had Rosa, who played the generic Damsel in Distress for practically the entire game, while Rydia's summons were ok, but generally came back to bite you if you used them too much, as most summons do.

Rydia's character really deserves more credit. She had a crappy childhood but wasn't waiting around for some man to save her, she was busting heads and callin' monsters. At the time, that was pretty kick ass for a woman's role in a game. Take THAT, Princess Toadstool!

10 involved Yuna(summoner) and Lulu(black magic woman), both of whom I honestly could not stand. Plus there's the fact that the entire damn game was basically a romance novel produced by Square Enix. Worse thing to tarnish my PS2.

Bah, FFX is one of my favorites due to its delicious level system (the sphere grid) and the return of unique character roles. Lulu's look was totally designed to be a boy's wetdream (most sexist victory pose ever), but she had a strong personality and tended not to take crap from anyone (Auron was really the only one she'd defer to). He BF died, but she carried on. Her charge died, but she carried on. Sure, she could have used more character development, and a redesigned character model, but she was a surprisingly strong character. Possibly because she was the black magic user, and those tend to be harsher individuals.

As for Yuna, while she shared a lot of Schala's self-sacrificing nature, she was still very head strong and independent. I'm particularly reminded of her decision to marry Seymour being leverage to getting him to confess; she was turning the stereotypical female role upside down and she used it to dominate, rather than be dominated. Then later she goes through a marriage ceremony to get the chance to re-kill Seymour. And she was the one who made the final decision not to get the final aeon and find another way to defeat sin: Spira's history did a 180 based on her. In a male-dominated society, she was challenging the power structures. Not even Auron could keep her in check when she made up her mind.

There are a lot of interesting female leads in different final fantasy games, and in their other franchises as well.

It aught be noted that, in general, having a lead role doesn't mean it's not a sexist role. It just generally means that there is more screen time for that role to develop, sexist or otherwise.

[Zephira]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090714/lf_nm_life/us_couples
I just saw this on Yahoo! news and thought it was interesting. According to that study, only the employment status of the husband affects the longevity of marriage, and it doesn't matter whether or not the wife is employed. I'm curious, is this because most men don't care about job status, or because most women are pushing that man-must-be-the-breadwinner stereotype?

And about Samus: The first time I played Super Metroid, I thought she was a man named Metroid. At that age, if the character had a gun, ship, or other big weapon, I expected it to be a guy. (Though honestly, Metroid is a much cooler name than Samus  )

[Truthordeal]

Let's try to not be too hard on them, Zephira. I honestly wouldn't want a deadbeat for a spouse either.

Now, hypothetically, if my wife wanted to be a stay-at-home mom, do house work and be there for our children during the day, I certainly wouldn't mind. That'll probably provide a much healthier family life for the children themselves. The second income would be missed, sure, but love is more important than a supplementary income, a lesson many couples could learn from today.

In the traditional stance, yes, the male is usually expected to be the one to bring the bacon home, while the female is the one that fries it. Its more acceptable for a woman to be the one that stays at home and watches the children than a man. I suppose as long as the woman chooses to be the housewife rather than have a career, its ok. That sentiment appeals a lot to some women.

But, if you are going to be a housewife, please get a marketable skill. If there's one thing that the "Men are Terrible and Will Hurt You Because This is Lifetime" channel has taught me, its that your husband will abandon you and the kids, run off to Maine and you'll lose everything and have to rely on your female friends.

Sarcasm is so underrated. Haha.

[Thought]

In the traditional stance, yes, the male is usually expected to be the one to bring the bacon home, while the female is the one that fries it.

Sorry, I failed my save check vs history rant:

That is about as traditional as white wedding dresses (which is to say, it is totally not traditional). Before the rise of the middle class, it was expected that women would work outside of the home. Course, it was expected that children would work outside of the home... and of course, pre-industrial revolution it was expected that everyone would work inside the home, except for harvest times, when everyone would work outside the home. Anywho, point being, the wife being unemployed bit is largely a modern invention that originated as an economic status indicator.

That sentiment appeals a lot to some women.

Meh, that sentiment appeals to me, and I'm not a woman (at least last time I checked; I'll let you know if I go all Kafka on y'all). Maybe that's why I married someone who will almost assuredly always make more money than me (people tend to pay scientists since they contribute to society. Historians, not so much).