Fuck Sexism

[ZaichikArky]

You guys are so philosophical and analytical! This has been something I've sucked at all my life! Usually rhetorical and philosophical discourses either really irritate me, or just bore me, but not so much this time.

Z's posts are usually around 80% rhetoric, 20% Springtime of Youth, but that doesn't mean you necessarily have to fall in with his rhetoric to admire his passion and drive in pursuing his rhetoric.

Yeah, I agree. I do not fall into the rhetoric. I never have and probably never will, and as for the spring time thing, it's encouraging for me : ). This is kind of negative, but I almost feel like my spring time is over because I'm not nearly as active as I used to be a few years ago or more... but it doesn't have to be that way. I guess I just want to be selfish right now in my life and focus on building my career rather than pressing social issues that others fight about.

Zaichi, common sense dictates that if feminism is something you're not passionate about, or even feel yourself adverse to at times, then there's no reason for you to support it or the way it's being pursued. There are plenty of other, dare I say, more pressing, issues that require the attention of intelligent men and women. I think at the moment, feminism has a great deal of support with guys like Z, J and FW.

I used to be more passionate about environmental issues... the only problem with this is that the core issue of being an environmentalist is becoming at LEAST vegetarian... this is just something very hard for me to do, such a big change in my life. I'm not sure if I could do it... so I've kind of resigned myself to being more low key about that passion. I don't think it's a bad thing for men, well anyone really,  to be interested in the feminist movement, but I am weary of the effects discussion on a web forum will be really helpful. If that's all you do, I"m not really sure that is so helpful at all... though if you take your discussions and apply it to the real world, I guess that is progress. It's like what I mentioned about the chivalry. How many men have actually been in relationships and tried to be as non sexist as possible with the "benevolent sexism"? I'm just curious as to how it works, I think it's a bias for me, but I can't see it work in my relationship. That doesn't mean it won't work in others, I'm just interested in the effects of this.

There's ultimately going to be a significant tug of war as our society, now shaped increasingly by feminism, tries to iron out more humanistic sexual norms. For thousands of years women were taught to cover as much of their bodies as possible, as if the feminine form was somehow inherently sinful, which was anti-humanist; now that the sexual revolution has taken place we're bombarded by images of bare skin, particularly within the context of marketing, and I would argue that this, too, is anti-humanist.

I do agree with the concept about men being animalistic being negative, but I don't really think there is anything wrong with any way a woman choses to dress. I'll explain. Like you said, a woman was expected for most of civilization to cover up as much as possible. Only in the last couple decades has she felt freer to dress in any way she likes. In Japan, I saw many more girls I would classify as "slutty" than here in the US. There may be a word for it... I know there is a word in Hebrew! Anyway, I shall try to find a picture of what I mean...

http://www.japaneselifestyle.com.au/japan_picture/albums/upload/tokyo/shibuya/normal_shibuya_fashon_IMG_7054.JPG , this isn't working right now... sorry.

I have tried to find an accurate representation of the kinds of girls I used to see every day, and this was the very best I could do because the rest of the pics I found were harajuku style fashion.

Well think those two girls, but with a TON of more makeup and strange hair style, shorter shorts, huge high heels ans really skimpy shirts no matter what the weather. My best friend in Japan was Israeli, there is a term for girls like that in Hebrew- "frecha"  so a game for us would be to always make each other be aware of these kinds of girls by saying "frecha" whenever we'd spot them. Maybe the English equivalent would be "bimbo" or something.

Anyway, I kind of disrespect girls like this a little, but at the same time, I think it is perfectly respectable. These girls have nice bodies (most of the time anyway) and if they want to dress slutty, let them. The very nature of "dressing slutty" is really condemned. No matter WHAT you say, it has a very negative connotation! Dressing provocatively, looking like a whore... Maybe the best you can say is dressing in a skimpy outfit and no one ever says that.

I do admire girls who dress like that because they are showing their individuality and showing that they don't care about what others think of them. It is very feminist if you really look at it... as for society, society is what needs to change. We need to look at girls like that not necessarily that they are sluts, but that they have a legitimate reason to dress in any way they feel like. Can men dress like skanky girls and get away with it? Sure, if they like...  but women naturally have the better advantage. I'm not sure if society is really ready to see men dress like slutty women. That is something it is not nearly prepared for. And I don't say that because it's good, it's unfortunate. It would make me , as well as a large chunk of the female population happy :3.

1. Be the best human you can be. This seems rather after-school-specially, but one of the best ways of addressing issues of intolerance, particularly in a society where there is a sense of social justice, is to be better than your opponents. I take my inspiration from a misheard lyric: one should be "more human than a human." When basically good people are confronted by great injustice, they will awaken and behave properly. The challenge is in getting them to wake up.

2. Be vocal. This doesn't mean talking about feminism, it means talking in general. Being the best doesn't matter if other people don't realize that you are the best. Self-advertisement is the key. People like the idea of being humble and saving the world, but if you are the best, then the world will get saved along the way.

3. Get involved with your community. For example, be a Big Sister (or Big Brother): helping children is a way to help stamp out prejudice while they are young. But perhaps you'll march in a local parade, become an intern for the mayor, etc. This puts you, as a woman, in a leadership role which is needed in society.

4. Hold society's feet to the fire. If you see negative sexism, make sure everyone and their mom knows about it. Write to congress, write to the president, write to the supreme court, write to newspapers.

5. A distant fifth would be to speak or write academically about feminism. Enough has already been said and written on the topic, now is the time when action is needed. But failing that, it can't hurt.

Thank you, that was very informative. At some point, I think I do want to be more active, but due to my unfortunate experience with environmentalism, I'm a little weary to be more active about anything these days. When I'm ready, I do want to do it... just not so much these days. I do write complaints and I talk about things on web forums, that is all I really want to pursue right now.

[FaustWolf]

Oh, I totally didn't mean to suggest women shouldn't be able to dress skimpily, just that they should be able to do so without conservatives hollering about their "sluttiness" or men whooting at them obnoxiously. One might say, "Hey, if you don't want that kind of attention, dress more conservatively!" But aye, there's the rub -- it's always women who have to exert self-control because men are assumed incapable. Is the rape rate any higher in nudist colonies than in mainstream Western society?

The individual who defines themselves by their relationship status inherently seems to be immature in their relationship perspectives. They are "dating just to date."

Agreed, and I suspect this might be a huge problem in societies marked by sexism and more particularly, homophobia. Any guy who hasn't dated in awhile is automatically suspect of being gay, and fear of this may make men feel compelled to enter relationships when they're really not pursuing emotional connections or intimacy.

[ZaichikArky]

Oh, I totally didn't mean to suggest women shouldn't be able to dress skimpily, just that they should be able to do so without conservatives hollering about their "sluttiness" or men whooting at them obnoxiously. One might say, "Hey, if you don't want that kind of attention, dress more conservatively!" But aye, there's the rub -- it's always women who have to exert self-control because men are assumed incapable. Is the rape rate any higher in nudist colonies than in mainstream Western society?

Ok, I see. I remember this one bitch having this huge fight with a friend of mine because he suggested that women who dress like that should expect men to give them attention... unwanted or not. You know, it's kind of hard to say. I would like to say "No, a woman should feel free to express herself in anyway she likes without unwanted attention by men", but at the same time, what is she really trying to do by dressing up like that? I seldom find that it is because of her creative freedom... it is almost always because she WANTS attention from men. So yeah, I do think that if she didn't want attention, she should just dress more conservatively...  So it's kind of a fine line to cross. I guess that if I chose to dress like that (not that I really ever will, but I sometimes come close during certain rare occasions and when I do, I do get a lot of attention from men), I wouldn't mind men looking at me, but I wouldn't want rude whooting either... I'm not sure how I would feel about men trying to proposition me. I would probably feel like they have the right to considering the kind of impression I would be making >_>; considering the amount of times I've been propositioned, I just kind of deal with it.

[ZeaLitY]

Z's posts are usually around 80% rhetoric, 20% Springtime of Youth, but that doesn't mean you necessarily have to fall in with his rhetoric to admire his passion and drive in pursuing his rhetoric.

Yeah, I agree. I do not fall into the rhetoric. I never have and probably never will, and as for the spring time thing, it's encouraging for me : ). This is kind of negative, but I almost feel like my spring time is over because I'm not nearly as active as I used to be a few years ago or more... but it doesn't have to be that way. I guess I just want to be selfish right now in my life and focus on building my career rather than pressing social issues that others fight about.

Fuck you.

It is NOT fucking rhetoric. I've elucidated clear examples with clear principles and clear ideals based on common sense humanistic ethics. You people fucking disappoint me. How what is what I've said fucking rhetoric? Like this:

From this world, we've already removed worse sexism, worse abuse, worse religion, worse torture, worse exploitation, worse usury, worse laws, worse conditions, and worse ideas.

That's dramatic, but is it "rhetoric"? No, unless you fucking think that having a life expectancy of 35, living in filth, not understanding how the world works, and suffering all your life from oppressive feudalism and disease in the Dark Ages is somehow a better system than the modern one. Humanity has lifted itself out of darkness by fighting tooth and nail, all while people like you were saying "change isn't needed" or "you can't change anything" for centuries. Female suffragists had to fight a generation of women who felt they were embarrassing them as a sex or doing more harm than good, but they won. And now, people like you fucking take it for granted that you can vote.

The story isn't fucking over yet until equality is achieved. No one can force you to not have a defeatist attitude, but you're not going to pour water on the precious few flames of humanistic idealism kept alive in this world. It is so fucking easy to simply take the path of least resistance; to be part of any business and make a lot of money without ethical concern; to ride existing sexist attitudes as a man to have less responsibilities or as a woman to avoid demonization; to believe in religion and faith to avoid fear of death or the responsibility of finding some personal meaning; to simply take what you can get in the way of pleasure care about this world or humanity.

Not me. And not anyone who stands with me.

particularly within the context of marketing, and I would argue that this, too, is anti-humanist.

Marketing to lower-common denominators and reinforcing ignorance for profit motive is on my short list of business evils. I feel sick every time I go to the movies and sit through the truly classless commercials before the movie begins; at the Carmike, there's been one starting with this guy saying, "When you want video content, you want it NOW!!", bringing to mind some kind of indignant, screaming baby-consumer who wants to be entertained with minimal thought. There's an entire culture of this stuff, and marketing's been a part of it, right back to the days of telling you cigarettes are a cure-all.

The main problem that history shows us with the womens' rights movement is that they will gain some footing, make some progress, and then suddenly stop.

This isn't any kind of point at all. Naturally, when you're trying to change the world, it doesn't happen overnight, and naturally, there are some choke-points or moments of swift passion once an idea catches on in the spirit of the age.

[Zephira]

Zaichik, you don't have to be a vegetarian if you're an environmentalist. Just watch No Reservation's segment on Ted Nugent in Texas. He's a HUGE environmentalist; he has his own reserve stocked with wildlife and plants. For every tree he cuts down, he plants two more. For every animal he hunts, he breeds or rescues two more. And the best part? He's a hunter. He hunts and eats his own meat.
While I would do my part for the environment, I would just die if I ever had to be a vegetarian. It just makes no sense at all.

"If you don't want attention, dress conservatively" also has to be one of the more retarded lines I've heard. Yes, it's good advice in that it works, but that's also the unfortunate part. It's summer, and we've been getting over 100 degree weather here recently. My brothers get to walk around outside in nothing but shorts and sandals, so why can't I go out in a bikini without being kicked out of fast food joints or being gawked at in the street?

The problem with DoA's swimsuit edition is not that it has skimpy outfits - heck, I like it, they're very pretty models, and the breast jiggle is hilarious - but the way it's being marketed. It doesn't rely on its controls, art and entertaining physics to sell itself, but the "fact" that men will buy it only for the hot chicks. It's like making a FPS for black people where the opposing teams are fried chicken and watermelons that bleed kool-aid.

[Truthordeal]

Fuck you.

It is NOT fucking rhetoric. I've elucidated clear examples with clear principles and clear ideals based on common sense humanistic ethics. You people fucking disappoint me. How what is what I've said fucking rhetoric?

Z, I meant rhetoric in the broad sense of "language meant to please or persuade."

I realize now, seeing the other contexts of that word, that it was probably a bad word choice on my part and that probably gave the wrong impression of what I meant to say. I'm sorry.

It is so fucking easy to simply take the path of least resistance; to be part of any business and make a lot of money without ethical concern; to ride existing sexist attitudes as a man to have less responsibilities or as a woman to avoid demonization; to believe in religion and faith to avoid fear of death or the responsibility of finding some personal meaning; to simply take what you can get in the way of pleasure care about this world or humanity.

Second of all, quit trying to demonize me for not being as progressive as you on sexism, when you yourself told me to step back from the matter and educate myself on it. And quit trying to demonize other people for trying to live their lives in a way that doesn't fall into your ideology of what you think they should do.

No one's  talked about doing any of that on this forum. No one. Even I, who said that I don't believe that women are oppressed in this country, have laid out several ways to end discrimination and promote equality among the sexes. They're not nearly as progressive as your ideas, sure, but they're a damn good start. Baby steps.

[ZaichikArky]

Z, quit taking things so goddamn personally. You are the ONLY one who always does that in these discussions and it really is counter productive. You want more people to take your rhetoric more seriously? I would cut out all the insults because it only makes you look like a little kid trying to participate in big boy discussions.

Zaichik, you don't have to be a vegetarian if you're an environmentalist. Just watch No Reservation's segment on Ted Nugent in Texas. He's a HUGE environmentalist; he has his own reserve stocked with wildlife and plants. For every tree he cuts down, he plants two more. For every animal he hunts, he breeds or rescues two more. And the best part? He's a hunter. He hunts and eats his own meat.
While I would do my part for the environment, I would just die if I ever had to be a vegetarian. It just makes no sense at all.

I understand what you mean, but I do tend to believe the environmentalists when they say the meat industry is probably the biggest negative impact on environment... A large portion of environmentalists claim that you have no right to call yourself an environmentalist if you eat meat because you contribute to the massive degradation of not only the surrounding environment, but the ecosystem at large. If I want to be more serious about my commitment to the environment, the biggest change I could make would be to stop eating meat. But I'm not really ready to try that.

As for that guy, he sounds really cool. It sounds like he's very hardcore and serious about self-sustainment. I would consider him to be an exception because he hunts and kills animals for his own consumption rather than participating in the meat-cultivation industry.

[Zephira]

The thing about consuming meat is that you can choose where to get your meat from. Buy meat from Safeway or QFC or other massive chain stores and you're probably contributing to a negative meat-cultivation industry. But if you buy your meat from a local farm you still get a proper diet, and that meat is probably a lot healthier (and tastier) than what gets sold at chain stores. Probably more expensive, but it's worth it.

[Truthordeal]

The thing about consuming meat is that you can choose where to get your meat from. Buy meat from Safeway or QFC or other massive chain stores and you're probably contributing to a negative meat-cultivation industry. But if you buy your meat from a local farm you still get a proper diet, and that meat is probably a lot healthier (and tastier) than what gets sold at chain stores. Probably more expensive, but it's worth it.

Oh yeah! One great thing about SC is that its farming country. You can go down the street I live on and see cows. Most of the grocery stores around here are run and supplied locally, and you'll get better produce and meat than you'll get at Wal-Mart, I tell you what.

[Vehek]

I'm rather ignorant about local industries and businesses, but is that much of an option where she lives?

[ZaichikArky]

I'm rather ignorant about local industries and businesses, but is that much of an option where she lives?

Yeah, I don't think that would be too much of an option to me, unfortunately. I could try to find a local farm, but most of the local farms around here produce dairy and not meat. Is it even possible to buy farm-fresh meat online? Maybe it is, but I think that's kind of outside my budget : (.

[Andrelvis]

Z, quit taking things so goddamn personally. You are the ONLY one who always does that in these discussions and it really is counter productive. You want more people to take your rhetoric more seriously? I would cut out all the insults because it only makes you look like a little kid trying to participate in big boy discussions.

Zaichik, you don't have to be a vegetarian if you're an environmentalist. Just watch No Reservation's segment on Ted Nugent in Texas. He's a HUGE environmentalist; he has his own reserve stocked with wildlife and plants. For every tree he cuts down, he plants two more. For every animal he hunts, he breeds or rescues two more. And the best part? He's a hunter. He hunts and eats his own meat.
While I would do my part for the environment, I would just die if I ever had to be a vegetarian. It just makes no sense at all.

I understand what you mean, but I do tend to believe the environmentalists when they say the meat industry is probably the biggest negative impact on environment... A large portion of environmentalists claim that you have no right to call yourself an environmentalist if you eat meat because you contribute to the massive degradation of not only the surrounding environment, but the ecosystem at large. If I want to be more serious about my commitment to the environment, the biggest change I could make would be to stop eating meat. But I'm not really ready to try that.

As for that guy, he sounds really cool. It sounds like he's very hardcore and serious about self-sustainment. I would consider him to be an exception because he hunts and kills animals for his own consumption rather than participating in the meat-cultivation industry.

Why is eating meat bad for the environment? AFAIK eating plants, especially grains, is much worse, since they require a much larger parcel of land to be grown than cattle, and thus make deforestation worse.

[Uboa]

As far as buying better meat on-line goes, your best bet is probably going to be ordering a quarter buffalo from a strictly grass-fed buffalo ranch, which will run you about $600 (actually a really good deal), and you'll definitely need a chest freezer.  Other than that, wild caught sardines are still not on any endangered lists, and you can get those from Amazon.

There are many reasons why it's really not a bad idea to go at least half-and-half on plant and animal sourced protein, including health reasons.  Cutting back on meat and still getting enough protein really isn't hard with the supplements available today, it's just a matter of mixing up some powder with milk or juice.  Nature's Plus shake mixes are actually really tasty, and they're made of all plant sourced proteins (blend of rice, pea, and soy to be specific).

(I really wasn't going to drag this thread off topic, but since it was headed that way anyway...)

[ZaichikArky]

Why is eating meat bad for the environment? AFAIK eating plants, especially grains, is much worse, since they require a much larger parcel of land to be grown than cattle, and thus make deforestation worse.

Do some research. Eating plants isn't bad for the environment... Especially if you eat local farm plants (much easier to do than farm-fresh meat)

http://www.emagazine.com/view/?142 is a good article explaining in detail about all the ways eating meat is bad for the environment.

[Uboa]

Why is eating meat bad for the environment? AFAIK eating plants, especially grains, is much worse, since they require a much larger parcel of land to be grown than cattle, and thus make deforestation worse.

The problem is that most of those grains are grown specifically to feed cattle.  If we didn't produce so much meat, we'd need to produce far far less grains and soybeans.  Deforestation for soybean crops is a result of mass demand for cattle feed.