Fuck Sexism

[Zephira]

I am pro life in most cases.  I can understand abortions for the exteme cases such as if the mother had the baby, she would die.
But if its just an irresponsible teenager who had an "accident", I don't give a shit and its your own damn fault.
If you don't have the money to support a baby, put it up for adoption.

My frustration is people who think like this.

What if the women was impregnated by rape?
What if she and the man were being perfectly safe, pills and condoms and whatever else, but it still failed?
What if the family didn't have enough money for a child, and the kid would grow up and suffer in squalor?
What if it happened to you before you were prepared to start your life, or before you were finished with school?

Is it fair to throw another unfortunate soul into an already overpopulated world? If you can't afford the child, the whole family, child included, will suffer. If you put it up for adoption, that's just more burden on an already strained economy.

And about that 'irresponsible girl in high school' scenario. She gets pregnant through an accident. Neither she nor her mate want the child, but thanks to reasoning in that quote, she isn't allowed to get an abortion. So, she suffers nine months of pain and sickness, then gives birth. From that point on her whole life is devoted to this unwanted child. She drops out of school to care for the kid and can't afford any further schooling. So, her career never kicks off. She mooches off her parents, her boyfriend, or asks the state for money. Her and her child just become another unnecessary drain on tax dollars that could be put to better use.
Now, if she DOES get the abortion, she is only out of commission for a couple of weeks. After she recovers from the swab she goes back to school, graduates, and possibly attends a college. She and the boy who got her pregnant the first time might end up getting married later on in life and, after both get a firm start in their careers, might decide to start a real family. By this time they are financially secure and comfortable in their relationship, so they will actually be able to care for their child.

I don't know about you, but if I wound up pregnant before I was able to actually give my child the good life it deserves, there is no way I would go through all nine months of a useless pregnancy.

[V_Translanka]

That's why there should be sex/procreation licenses. If you get someone pregnant but can't afford it, you should be auto-castrated or something...People that are that kind of stupid and irresponsible don't need to be making little versions of themselves for ANYONE to have to take care of...>_>

[Zephira]

It's either stupid people, or people stupidly out of luck. Condoms can break, and birth control pills don't always work. What irks me is when the unlucky people get lumped in with the stupid people and are denied the right to a good life, all because of one piece of plastic that broke or one pill that didn't work.

This anti-abortion mentality is why we have so many large, poor families. Yeah, kids are nice. Yeah, life is nice. But knowingly bringing a child into a poor existence is just cruel.

[ZeaLitY]

Thanks for your perspective, Zephira. Like the ass on my Facebook who reminded everyone grieving over Michael Jackson that he was a "CHILD MOLESTER DAMNED BY GOD", it's amazing how Christlike Christians can be. The peace and love that Jesus preached is so evident in modern Christianity. <3

[IAmSerge]

What if the women was impregnated by rape?
What if she and the man were being perfectly safe, pills and condoms and whatever else, but it still failed?
What if the family didn't have enough money for a child, and the kid would grow up and suffer in squalor?
What if it happened to you before you were prepared to start your life, or before you were finished with school?

Look, as I said before, adoption would be a very reasonable solution for the majority of the above cases.

With the rape situation, I can understand that the whole experience would be traumatic and scar the girl for life... which, I would condsider that to be one of the more extreme cases in which I wouldn't mind an abortion.

Look, theres a reason that my religious beliefs limit sexual relations to married couples.  Not because my religion is being an ass to unmarried people but because it usually just works out better that way.

In my opinion, if you're not responsible enough to have a baby, you aren't responsible enough to have sex.

And, ZeaLitY, seriously, if I saw those people doing that, I would personally go up and call them dumbshits to their faces.  For they, just as often as other things, are an extremely personal insult to my beliefs.

[V_Translanka]

The only excuse should be if a condom breaks, the pill doesn't work and the morning after pill also doesn't work (all of which adds up to a minute percentage under even 1%, I believe)...If you don't use all of those resources available to you and still end up with an unwanted baby (through consensual sex), I don't really feel that sorry for you.

[Zephira]

Alright, adoption, sure. Let your child grow up in what's essentially a human farm and drain money and resources that could have been used for better purposes. I'm sure that kid would be real happy to know that you gave him away and he has no family.
Yeah, adoption is great since you're taking someone else's kid and not contributing to overpopulation. But, wouldn't this overpopulation thing be better managed if the people who orphaned that child had just aborted in the first place?

Okay, going completely abstinent until you marry is pretty noble. But, what if you never marry? What if you never find Mr/Mrs. Right? I highly doubt that even you would want to die a virgin in such a case.

In my opinion, if you're not responsible enough to have a baby, you aren't responsible enough to have sex.

I'm not talking about irresponsible people here. I'm talking about responsible people who had this all planned out, but they aren't ready for a child and had an accident. If a faulty condom or pill leads to pregnancy, it doesn't make the couple irresponsible. What do you say to these people, who themselves carefully until now? Their whole life could be ruined by broken plastic.

[Truthordeal]

Eh, might as well stop by here.

I don't like abortion. If someone close to me was mulling it over, I'd try to convince them not to go for it. But I can't control the situations of strangers some 3000 miles from me.

More than likely, I'd be considered pro-choice, because I'd rather have women have the right to decide than have the government decide for them.

I cannot condone late-term or (especially) partial birth abortions except in case of an emergency, though. If you decide to terminate, do it in the first six months. That's not that too tough a request, is it?

Tiller the Baby Killer wasn't hated because he did abortions. He was hated because he did them as the baby was alive. That, to me, is too inhumane to be a choice.

[ZaichikArky]

Eh, might as well stop by here.

I don't like abortion. If someone close to me was mulling it over, I'd try to convince them not to go for it. But I can't control the situations of strangers some 3000 miles from me.

More than likely, I'd be considered pro-choice, because I'd rather have women have the right to decide than have the government decide for them.

I cannot condone late-term or (especially) partial birth abortions except in case of an emergency, though. If you decide to terminate, do it in the first six months. That's not that too tough a request, is it?

Tiller the Baby Killer wasn't hated because he did abortions. He was hated because he did them as the baby was alive. That, to me, is too inhumane to be a choice.

You really need to educate yourself on late term abortions and why they occur. Because that douchebag made it a federal law to outlaw "partial birth abortions", thousands of women are caught up in loopholes which prevent them from aborting their severely deformed babies.

First of all, partial birth abortions represent .17 percent of all abortion cases(in the US). Second of all, over 90 percent of these cases, the fetus is substantially deformed or delivering it would cause substantial damage to the woman delivering it.

And your example, this "Tiller the Baby Killer" guy. Did you know that almost all of his cases of partial birth abortion were due to either of those scenarios I mentioned? Either the baby was severely deformed or the mother was in grave danger delivering the baby? Actually, in his case, it was not even proven that the late term abortions that he performed were done without reason. I find it sickening that he was murdered for being a champion of womens rights... but there are a lot of fucked up people in this world.

Because no one understands the severity of the partial birth abortion act, women will continue to be in danger of being forced to deliver their babies to full term. This is really a stab in the heart of people who are not only pro-choice, but feminism as well...

[Lord J Esq]

There really is no explanation but bigotry or ignorance for opposing a woman's right to control her own body. There's no logical or economic or ethical or psychological rationale for it. It can only be the case that those who oppose this most elemental freedom either do not understand their own belief, or possess an ulterior motive.

For the bigots, the ulterior motive group, it all comes down to controlling women's sexuality and self-determination; it really does. It's that simple. They don't care about the unborn children, and they're not fooling anybody with their sanctimonious blather. They widely oppose contraception, even though contraceptive usage would reduce the abortion rate. They universally oppose the social programs, environmental regulation, and public institutions that help children make it to adulthood in one piece. And their permissive attitude toward male sexuality reveals their hypocrisy to anyone with the mind to look.

As for the ignorant--the larger of the two groups and including Compendium members like IAmSerge and Truthordeal--it's all about believing whatever their trusted religious and political authority figures tell them to believe: the actual issue and the substance is irrelevant. It just so happens in this case that the issue is abortion and millions of people's lives get ruined when professional, legal abortion care is denied to everyone who wants it. People can be conditioned, like dogs, to believe almost anything. At the same time, critical thought is not exactly one of our species' most consist and reliable traits. That's a recipe that will explain every bad popular movement in history, including the so-called "pro-life" movement, a movement which makes no sense for anyone whose aim is not to oppress women. Everyone who leaves religion (or at least leaves fundamentalist religion) goes on to remark on how blindly they allowed their faith to be shaped by others. No duh. But that's what faith does to you: With faith, the most obvious things in the world can become utterly obscured. That's why intelligent, well-meaning, thoughtful, and intellectually crisp people who are otherwise religious can nevertheless be so deeply wrong on so many topics.

Frustrating? Yeah. But I take a lot of satisfaction in knowing that the religious basketcases have lost their political stranglehold on American politics and will be returning to fringe group status. Hopefully it will be less than a generation until we can establish full abortion care access for everyone.

Anyone who really loves kids so much should get their own rather than telling someone else what she can and can't do with her own body.

[Lord J Esq]

And your example, this "Tiller the Baby Killer" guy. Did you know that almost all of his cases of partial birth abortion were due to either of those scenarios I mentioned? Either the baby was severely deformed or the mother was in grave danger delivering the baby? Actually, in his case, it was not even proven that the late term abortions that he performed were done without reason. I find it sickening that he was murdered for being a champion of womens rights... but there are a lot of fucked up people in this world.

I forgot about Truthordeal's sick comment about Dr. Tiller. Thanks for pointing it out. Dr. Tiller did good work--and this was despite being harassed on a daily basis, having his clinic violently attacked, and even being shot. He endured all that and kept providing abortion care to the women who needed it, because he understood their need and was willing to risk his own life to do what he could to help. He was one of the few remaining healthcare providers in the country of several key late-term abortion procedures. He knew no new doctors were coming into this because of the harassment, the lawsuits, and the domestic terrorism that comes out of these anti-choice squads. He understood the importance of his work, and he paid a very high price for seeing his convictions through. I don't use the term but rarely, yet Dr. Tiller was a real hero. He knew his life was at risk and he held fast anyway. His absence will mean that hundreds of women in the years to come will suffer serious health problems or even death simply because there is no doctor brave enough to resist the Jesus-loving torch and pitchfork brigades. Without access to the best abortion care, they will be reduced to more dangerous alternatives. That was the specific intent of the criminal who murdered Dr. Tiller.

I don't think most people realize just how serious this is. The right has moved so far to the right right that they are literally stepping into the realm of domestic terrorism, and as a result we have "dumbshits" (to use another person's word) coming on to public forums like this one and basically advocating for terrorism--or at least condoning it--without having any clue whatsoever that that is what they are doing. This really is the darkness before the dawn. I'm glad America is finally beginning to move away from that terrible precipice, but in the meantime these proud conservative vigilantes are only going to get more dangerous as they realize that their power is fading. Perhaps there aren't enough data points to make a clear line yet, but we've had eight acts of fatal right-wing terrorism in America so far since Obama took office (zero from the left wing). They're a dangerous bunch, and they're getting it from organizations like Fox News, Focus on the Family, and mass media personalities like Rush Limbaugh and Michelle Malkin. Dr. Tiller isn't going to be the last innocent victim.

[Zelbess]

Thank you, Lord J Esq for mentioning everything I ever wanted to say and more. Denying abortion is blatantly sexist. I sometimes feel this country has regressed back to the dark ages, considering the  horrible levels of female sexual oppression that exist currently. Just look at the government funded "Purity Balls", where young girls swear their virginity to their fathers and promise to wait until marriage. Adolescent females are swearing their virginity not to their mothers, not to themselves, not to their god, but to their fathers. They are essentially giving control of their sexuality to a man. (It's pretty metaphorical for what the right-wing government and religious groups would like women of America to do.) Boys are not involved in these events - they have seperate events, where - you guessed it - they are taught to be "virginity warriors" for women. People don't fret over male sexuality - it's female sexuality people aim to repress and control. A very enlightening book to read about society's approach to female sexuality is "The Purity Myth" by Jessica Valenti. It's a real eye-opener!

But if its just an irresponsible teenager who had an "accident", I don't give a shit and its your own damn fault.

An inherently sexist attitude is revealed in this one line. "Irresponsible teenager" - singular. Last time I checked, women don't get pregnant on their own. Society loves to dump blame on the woman and often wholly leave men out of the picture. Women have to deal with carrying the child and the life-altering consequences of pregnancy. Men? They can run, and frequently do. Yet it's the woman who is often given the scarlet letter of shame, and labeled as "irresponsible", "stupid" or "whore". The man's involvement in her condition is often completey overlooked.

Also, on the subject of Dr. Tiller's death, I can't help but to notice the blazing hypocrisy. Pro-lifers... who kill. Whatever happened to "all life is precious"? I guess only republican, Christian, morally-conservative life is "precious". The irony also exists in the fact that pro-lifers are usually republican, which typically supports the death penalty, rights to firearms, and emphasis on war over diplomatic relations. None of these things are very conducive to life, to be frank. "Pro-Zygote" or "Pro-Fetus" might be a better term for them. Or even better yet, "Anti-Woman".

My vocal experience is limited to karaoke'ing Robert Palmer, but I want to say something like, even if you do have them removed and there's a slight difference, perhaps it can be overcome or even used to an advantage if it expands your range. This is a pretty unqualified opinion, but there are at least several good high-profile cases in which athletes or other public figures have injuries that threaten their livelihood and are told they'll never have it the old way again, only to lay down serious effort and do the impossible. Mental conditioning plays a lot in this recovery, so in addition to believing that they'll recover, believe with total conviction that you'll have the strength to overpower any hiccups from the removal. It's probably very painful to consider this, but as long as you engender that complete faith in your resolve and alacrity, you can rest knowing there will be a future no matter what the outcome. Make yourself an ∞ multiplier in this equation.

Thanks for the great support, Zeality! Everyone else, too. I'll be mentally-conditioning myself for a positive outcome! I know Josh Groban said getting his tonsils removed in his early twenties helped him tremendously vocally, so maybe that will be the case for me as well.

[Boo the Gentleman Caller]

I sometimes feel this country has regressed back to the dark ages ...

If that's the case, I'm coming to your castle to take you over!  Rape and pillaging, ho ho ho!

"My fate is to live among varied and confusing storms. But for you perhaps, if as I hope and wish you will live long after me, there will follow a better age. When the darkness has been dispersed, our descendants can come again in the former pure radiance."—Petrarch

[Zephira]

I'm going to have to go with Zelbess and thank Lord J for articulating what I couldn't. I heard about Dr. Tiller's murder, but I never got the chance to really study what he did. It really is sickening how someone can get killed for trying to help people.

And good luck, Zelbess! I know you'll pull through this just fine because you still have to sing Radical Dreamers for us

[FaustWolf]

Hmm, Truthordeal might feel more welcome in the Tiller debate if we showed him the wikipedia article on Dr. Tiller so he doesn't have to take just our word on the nature of his practice. This is a small gesture, but it's always important that debate be based solely on facts and not anecdote.

Granted, info seems to be limited, but I trust the Wall Street Journal fairly well. The guy who shot him was probably not aware of the exact nature of his medical practice, driven instead by visions of intact 6-month old fetuses being ripped from the womb and cut into small pieces. Even if something like that has happened in Tiller's clinic, allowing the child's life to trump the mother's life is an extreme position most pro-lifers don't even espouse, judging from the ones I've met.

What's really interesting is that the Wiki article states Tiller has actually been thoroughly investigated via trial and acquitted of all charges. This is precisely why the legality of abortion should be viewed as a positive development for people on both sides of the debate; pro-lifers should be interested in knowing whether there are cruel excessess happening (I'm sure that if Tiller was cutting up viable fetuses into little pieces and laughing maniacally whilst so doing, this would have come up at trial), and pro-choicers should be interested in making sure conditions at clinics like Tiller's are safe. Much better to have Tiller operate at a clinic than in people's garages or in apartment rooms.


But I feel the real injustice here is that human society is going in circles over the morality of this issue when all it takes to eliminate the possibility of abortion for a specific couple while preserving the possibility of having children in the future is a little snip-snip, a little freeze-freeze, and a little double checking before engaging in sexual activity. What, is that too frightening for the civilized gentleman? If sex isn't worth a little snip-snip, then sex must be overrated indeed.