Fuck Sexism

[Truthordeal]

Lord J, personally, I don't see these tropes as sexist either way. I do tend to use women less in RPGs because they have low attack power, and yes that is annoying as sin, but its hardly sexist.

Its like the stories we heard as children: "A long time ago a knight saved a princess from a dragon and they lived happily ever after." It's not sexist. It can be boring, but its not subjugating women to enjoy that traditional yarn.

Kato knows how to tell a story is all. If you're on this site, you obviously think its entertaining. And at least in this story the princess helped the hero kick the dragon's ass instead of sitting back like a helpless damsel.

As for Schala, well... http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YamatoNadeshiko, http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShrinkingViolet, http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShyBlueHairedGirl.

*shrugs* Its Japan. Their attitude towards women isn't what I would call progressive.

[ZeaLitY]

Schala would be the next worst instance of sexism in the game. She was written in a sterotype that is quite popular in Japan and also fairly popular here: the pure of heart, suffering female. She seems like a person whose spirit has been completely broken; she never acts on her own behalf and has no obvious sense of self-worth. This goes beyond kindness and mere altruism; it's revolting. There are moments in the game when I just want to kick her; then I realize that she was written this way by male scenario writers, and want to kick them instead.

Kid kicked their asses to the "moons" in Chrono Cross! The things you mentioned about Schala are why she's one of my least favorite characters in the series. Now Queen Zeal, there's someone interesting...

[Uboa]

Kid kicked their asses to the "moons" in Chrono Cross! The things you mentioned about Schala are why she's one of my least favorite characters in the series. Now Queen Zeal, there's someone interesting...

Too bad we never get to see her childhood...  Who in the real world could we compare her to in order to speculate about it?  

Why is Sarah Palin the first person who comes to my mind?  Doesn't even really fit, but it's kind of funny to think about.

Edit:  Maybe it does fit...

[Truthordeal]

Uboa, I'm going to take a stab here, put myself into fanboy mode and say that Schala's childhood probably wasn't all that happy. No I cannot prove this, as its mere speculation. Judging by how her mother acted during the course of the game, plus Janus refusing to call Zeal as mother, I'm assuming that there was some abusive behavior going on there.

It is possible that Kato didn't mean for Schala to be the Shrinking Violet trope, rather than just having an inferiority complex brought on by her mother.

And now, I remove myself from fanboy mode.

[Uboa]

I'm totally on board for Schala's childhood being utter hell, and with the inferiority complex speculation.  Mix that with trying to play mother to her brother and you've got a fascinating emotional concoction that just brims with insanity.  I wish that her madness could have been played out a bit more in the end of CT DS.  She probably would have ended up much crazier than Janus.

Edit:  Alright so I was in fan mode here, too.  Maybe I shouldn't be so apologetic.

[skylark]

To Truthordeal - No, it's Japan. I'm sure Kato made it intentional.

And the worst part is that Schala has no 'best friend or lover' for her to put her faith into. (And one can argue that Schala and Kid merge, so it's all moot.)

It just doesn't seem fair to me, that's all, cause I can really relate to her at points.

*looks back at the train tracks... and finds the train has crashed into the station*

O_O

Man, did I derail this sucker or what?

[Uboa]

I don't think you derailed it at all.  This is all pretty in line with the topic at hand.

[Truthordeal]

Wouldn't Schala's relying on a male character to inspire her be more sexist? Personally, I don't think so as its a love story trope, and that Magus seems to rely on her heavily for moral support as children and even in the new ending of CT:DS.

But if I didn't say it, someone would have and they probably wouldn't have been as nice about it.

[Lord J Esq]

And the worst part is that Schala has no 'best friend or lover' for her to put her faith into.

That would have been even worse, in my opinion. But Truthordeal beat me to it.

For the record, though, I like Schala. I think she's one of the most interesting characters in the game, and she definitely has loads of potential. She is, after all, the center of countless fanfics, and she did, indeed, go on to star in the next two Chrono games (albeit with blonder hair). I just don't like the almost sadistic totality of the writers' commitment to making her suffer. Indeed, in Chrono Cross they came up with something even worse for her than watching her family go mad and her world get destroyed: they fused her for thirteen thousand years to the most angst-ridden being in the galaxy.

Jeez, writers!

Edit: It's not the suffering per se that's so disturbing (although it is disturbing): It's the connections we're supposed draw between the magnitude of her suffering and the quality of her spirit.

[Uboa]

Edit: It's not the suffering per se that's so disturbing (although it is disturbing): It's the connections we're supposed draw between the magnitude of her suffering and the quality of her spirit.

Out of apologetic fan mode, I can agree with this 100%.

[Truthordeal]

Well, I'm glad that the people here are reasonable enough to not fall into the dangerous trap of declaring any woman that acts passively or in the traditional sense of femininity as a sexist depiction. The fact is with CT you get three strong women archetypes as PCs in the form of Marle, Lucca and (especially) Ayla, and then you have Schala who is more...for lack of a better word, submissive, to round it out. Hell, you can even go so far as to say that surviving her own ordeals makes Schala much stronger than the other three, despite never fighting, herself.

And as I've said before, the "girl relying on her boyfriend" trope isn't inherently sexist, as the main idea is probably romantic and the opposite happens quite frequently too.

[FaustWolf]

Quote from: skylark on Yesterday at 11:24:20 pm
And the worst part is that Schala has no 'best friend or lover' for her to put her faith into.

That would have been even worse, in my opinion. But Truthordeal beat me to it.

Is it the mere circumstance of Schala having a lover or super-best friend that would make it sexist, or rather great emotional dependence on said lover/superfriend that would make it sexist? I imagine it's the latter truth and J were referring to, but I'm interested in clarification on what's being insinuated.

[Uboa]

Well, I'm glad that the people here are reasonable enough to not fall into the dangerous trap of declaring any woman that acts passively or in the traditional sense of femininity as a sexist depiction. The fact is with CT you get three strong women archetypes as PCs in the form of Marle, Lucca and (especially) Ayla, and then you have Schala who is more...for lack of a better word, submissive, to round it out. Hell, you can even go so far as to say that surviving her own ordeals makes Schala much stronger than the other three, despite never fighting, herself.

And as I've said before, the "girl relying on her boyfriend" trope isn't inherently sexist, as the main idea is probably romantic and the opposite happens quite frequently too.

WRT Marle, Lucca, and Ayla, all I can say is that I wonder about the realism of their represented archetypes.  Likewise with the male characters.  Of course, we're analyzing a 90's videogame, so realism was probably not front and center in development.  

WRT Ayla in particular, I doubt you'll find too many tribal cultures with an Ayla running around.  She was a funny character, but definitely not my favorite female for that reason among others.

[Lord J Esq]

You, you've got the idea, Faust. Look at how badly they handled Celes' relationship with Locke. That could have been done so much better. As it is, it came off like a classified ad in the paper: Woman: In need of Man

At least Schala wasn't constantly melting for some guy. In fact, the only needy-needy in the game was Magus.

[Truthordeal]

But Magus is cool and a man so its ok. In fact, it shows how non-sexist Kato is because the evil guy is so super sensitive as to care for his sister to such a degree.

I was about half sarcastic in that rant.