Fuck Sexism

[Lord J Esq]

Somebody needs a hug for Christmas.

So, you've aired your grievances. Now maybe you should offer some prescriptions. How would you like business here to be conducted differently? What changes do you want to see? But, before you answer that, consider these bits:

The General board is for just that: general discussion. If you don't like the existing fare, you can always start some other topics, or simply avoid this board. If you want more discussion on the other boards, then hop to it and go fire up a few topics. You can't tell other people how to interact on the boards; you can only control your own contribution.

If you're upset that other Compendiumites are getting along well together, then invest in some friendships of your own on these boards--or, if that's not your thing, then don't, and don't worry about it when others do. Don't be snide about the relationships they forge. Don't call anyone a "pretty little face" or belittle them for opening up and sharing their lives. If you're feeling left out, that's fair: Tell us what we can do to make you feel more welcome. That's a much better road than the one of personal attacks that you've just started down.

As for myself, I know that it can be a challenge (to put it mildly) to find oneself in disagreement with me on a political issue. I give people what they give me, ten times stronger. If they give logical arguments, I give even better ones. If they make fools of themselves, I make fools of them even worse. I'm kind of ruthless that way. It's a personal conviction of mine: People should not pontificate if they don't have solid ground to stand on, and they should enter into debate with a critical mind--and only if debate is what they truly seek. The commonness of these deficiencies is a big contributor to the nation's cultural problems. I understand why people might not like my style. Honestly, I can sympathize. I don't actually expect everyone to align themselves with me every time I type out a position. I wouldn't even want that. I don't want drones or minions or followers or whatever. In fact that's the opposite of what I want: What I want is for people to think for themselves, and there's not enough of that. I don't want to live in a world where people get along because they don't think about anything.

I live "by the sword" when it comes to ideas. If somebody shows me that I'm wrong, or relieves me of an ignorance, I am enriched for it. But I hold all humans to the same standard: Anyone, if they want to air their ideas to the world, must be prepared to defend those ideas in debate. Those who eschew this profound onus, who come into a debate full of opinions but short on reason, are mooks. And I'm very good at putting together the argument with the person making it.

Politics is not some academic sport. It's a very contentious place where, in times past, people were killed and wars fought for disagreements of ideas. We live in a better era now, but that doesn't mean the essential contentiousness has gone away. We can surely all "agree to disagree," but that doesn't actually resolve anything. There are many threads on General Discussion (although perhaps they have been a bit blurred of late) where non-contentious subjects can be safely and warmly discussed by all. If you want less "jackass" Josh, then go to those threads. I'm well-mannered there. Usually! But in the political threads, I'm all business. Because why else bother? If getting along with people were my dominant wish, I wouldn't have an opinion on anything. That I do have opinions is a testament to my passion on those subjects.

Which brings me to the issue of sexual equality, my top social passion. Reducing two of our female community members to "pretty little faces" is not cool. Accusing me of "incessantly flirting" with someone just because she's female and I'm male, or because we've met in person, is not cool. Don't say stuff like that. If you have sincere complaints, PM the people involved, or talk to an administrator. I can recommend Radical_Dreamer.

*hugs Kebrel*

[FaustWolf]

*hugs Kebrel*

And thus did the true holiday spirit shine through Lord J Esq. I cried a little man-tear while reading that.

I would always prefer an honest outburst to a dishonest one. I have little to add, but Kebrel, note that Lord J did practically tear Zephira's liver out and eat it when she made that fat comment a week or so ago; he's not showing any favortism here as far as I can see. We've all had our livers nibbled -- or perhaps sliced and diced -- by J in debate; this is something each of us on the Compendium share if we've been so brave (or so unwitting) as to speak up on an issue he is also passionate about. It's a downright frightening experience!

Although Krispin and nightmare seem to have left for the time being, I really admire Truthordeal's and GenesisOne's willingness to continue engaging here despite what is a more-liberal-than-not atmosphere. If the discussion atmosphere seems oppressive here due to personality clashes, perhaps I should be weighing in with some moderating position more often -- and piss off J with moderat-ism, haha!

If Sajainta and Zephira are admired widely here, it is because they earned this through their dedication to the Chrono series, smart discussion, and fanworks, just like any other member of any gender identity here, and not because they're turning the Compendium into some kind of sappy sorority. I have probably been seen posting sappier things to male members here than they have to one another. If I had the ability to take up knitting, why, I'd probably send around a scarf or two as well. Sadly, I am limited to digital products as expressions of community and appreciation for my fellow Chrono fans.

On the Chrono discussion front, there are still some things to look forward to. While fanwork took a major hit due to the C&D, there's still the following:

*Crimson Echoes discussion. The story is still there for the viewing, and there are enough complexities therein that I feel a separate discussion forum will be warranted whenever it's judged safe.

*Flash Projects. Neo-Fusion and tushantin are working on some and are champing at the bit for feedback and participation. Chrono Trigger Unglued is still going, and Clovis would probably appreciate more feedback on that as well. We're on the lookout as new ones pop up from time to time.

*Fan fiction. Smokey just came out with an eight-chapter piece, Skylark's been waiting patiently for me forever to give feedback on a giant work of his (I don't think we have it up in fact, I should discuss that with him and see if he wants to release); there's Chrono Helix; the ongoing RPs; and then there will be Winter's Fragments and then the Dream Splash! 2010, which should be really really groovy with all kinds of multimedia contributions. I wonder if we shouldn't start the Splash early and make it run longer this time around for missing one in 2009 due to the uproar, but we'll see. Part of that is the admins having enough time for logistical setup.

But in short, I think we can look forward to a more energetic New Year that reminds us of the magic that drew us here in the first place. Returning to the subject of social activism at the Compendium, we've seen an uptick in feminism/pro-feminism specifically because several members here have made this subject a priority in their lives. I'm not sure our discussion here will save the world, but I appreciate that we've been able to feed off one another's enthusiasm, and been encouraged in that way to pursue our interests in this field.

Now, if you'll all excuse me, I have a strange craving for fava beans. I think I'll have a friend for dinner...

[FaustWolf]

Okay, I'm looking for feedback on this one Reddit user's responses to an article, and what the next feminist/pro-feminist volley should be. The user's initial comment has been downvoted to the point where you have to voluntarily click on a little (+) sign to see the exchange. This is a small border skirmish within the greater war for sexual equality.
http://www.reddit.com/r/feminisms/comments/aii9l/gendered_gifts_galore/

The exchange starts with the user in question delivering: "This is fucking pathetic" and it goes from there. I could simply say, "show me the stats" to his (or heck, could be her) last response, but nor was I fair in providing any articles on the aboriginal gender role reversal I mentioned. In fact, although I distinctly recall learning about such aboriginal societies in Sociology class in high school and college, it's a difficult subject to research because those societies are small and have specific names. The singing pygmies of Africa might be a weak example; I could have sworn there was a specific society in Africa, Indonesia, Madagascar, or Australia or someplace in which women were violently aggressive while men had all the nurturing qualities.

So, I guess I'm inviting the following:

*Help me identify some aboriginal societies (or even Western subcultures) that exhibit either stark gender role reversal or greater balance than what we have currently. I could at least trade that for the stats I'd be asking for, so I'm not standing on weaker ground than the opposition;

*Suggest how the stats he/she mentions could be critiqued even in general ways and jump in there to help fight the good fight!


We could also have a discussion here about why the feminist movement should find gendered gift advertisements something worth identifying and deconstructing.

[ZeaLitY]

In the future, the best course is to just downvote. This guy is a regular troll. He's not interested in the opposing argument, nor looking for any kind of substantive discussion. Posting something incendiary usually just lures a hapless replier who opens the floor and topics up to even more trolling.

Sadly, without more reinforcements, we can't really downvote trolls to the hidden threshold. I'd say it's not worth it to argue with this idiot. He's never, ever going to acknowledge that gender stereotypes motivate children and adults on either side of the marketing equation, even subconsciously or from learned, thoughtless tradition. Without that concession, he'll always be angrily asking what the point is and calling it fucking pathetic. Replying to him just gives him more targets for his idiocy. It could be productive if he walked into an obvious trap, but he's setting something up here that's a little harder to prove, then violently thrusting the burden of proof on you with sexist indignancy.

Yuck, though. I have to say, I was unprepared for the repulsiveness of male apologists. They really are completely despicable.

[MsBlack]

(Written before I saw Z's reply.)

Yeah, looks like Appanouki's another one trying to sabotage the subreddit.

It's been experimentally proven to be biological. Girls and boys statistically make different choices, when you control for culture. They've even shown this with monkeys.

Without having much knowledge of these oft-invoked studies, I'd suggest:

• Such experiments typically use participants (human or otherwise) who have already been raised into gender roles.
• Bias from the conductors of the experiment—not double-blind.
• Valid experiments use small samples or are overwhelmed by the experiments that contradict them
• Most importantly: Even if there are genetic predispositions or trends in a given sex, these do not reflect the whole sex and are not even guaranteed to manifest in those who do have such predispositions. Playing to such predispositions encourages their manifestation, limiting options and reaffirming gender roles

[FaustWolf]

In this case there were enough downvotes to hide where the discussion went from that point forward. I'm aware of Appanouki's history but I'm still interested in engaging these people, because it's a real battle, and real arguments have to be made in non-Internet life over this same sort of thing. This is a place where we can sharpen our feminist and pro-feminist debate skills, among both feminists and nonfeminists. In non-Internet life it's never as easy as just downvoting a troll; we have to out-argue them in realtime and let the observers judge. Although, the upvotes and downvotes basically give the observer an explicit voice that isn't necessarily present in real life debate, so that can be viewed as one of Reddit's strengths as a form of social commentary and discussion.

I've found some surprisingly good discussion at Reddit, to the point where we could probably take all this thread's participants over there (if we haven't already). Then again, it's a double-edged sword since each discussion thread gets buried over time to service Reddit's purpose as a sort of viral news aggregator.

MsBlack, I feel those are fantastic observations. I'd still encourage you to copy/paste those over, but looks like the user's getting downvoted so much it won't even be seen by the majority of people just blowing through. Maybe we could start a topic on these kinds of studies specifically, if we can find these supposed studies and present them as a Self.Feminisms newspost with accompanying critique.

[tushantin]

Sorry for being simplistic on this matter, but times have changed, yo. Gone are the days when females were considered nothing more than baby spewers, or even to keep the penalty of Eve's sins. Well they're still considered as baby-spewers today (not by EVERYONE though) but they have much more value as individuals as any of us males today. A woman can take her pride and join anything, anywhere and anytime and can do all what men can do.

But it all comes down to perception and strength.

Males were tough ever since the beginning of time, giving them an alpha position. But quite to the contrast females considered beauty OVER strength, giving an impression that brains and appearance are better than brawn in some cases. Despite that, strength often has taken up leadership, and even so a woman's intellect is always needed even for leaders (most WISE leaders).

Sometimes sexism is taken the wrong way. Women ARE born different from Men. Be PROUD of that difference! Now I'm not saying that either of the genders should be suppressed or oppressed by one another, but it's the law of nature. Females aren't supposed to take up physical strength.

But that doesn't limit them, of course, for they CAN develop physical mass if they wanna.  Depends what appearance they prefer; 1) Madona 2) Arnold Schwarzenegger.

There are various things that women can do that males can NEVER accomplish. There are many views that they can see that men can never grasp. Do note that this is why men really need women subconsciously. To be complete.


Of course, even today, there are some people who still cling onto the old thoughts and being offensive to women. Sometimes you can do somethin about it, sometimes not. If someone was so disrespectful to MY girl, mother, cousin, etc. I'd give em a big middle finger.

As I always say, difference MATTERS! Be different, and be proud to be different!

[FaustWolf]

There are various things that women can do that males can NEVER accomplish. There are many views that they can see that men can never grasp. Do note that this is why men really need women subconsciously. To be complete.

See, this is something I used to believe through and through as well; I inappropriately labeled it the "feminine mystique" because I hadn't actually read Betty Friedan's book at that point. It's still on my reading list, but I think she meant the "feminine mystique" as something negative that was confounding women's lives, rather than some kind of awesome mystical qualities and powers associated with femininity.

I start out with this seemingly pointless point because I think Betty Friedan and I might really have been looking at some of the same things, although obviously our cultural perspectives differ widely. I attached a sort of mysticism to femininity: women were the caretakers, the healers, the givers of life, the holders of shapely beauty, the ones who could cover up blemishes through arcane sorcery, the ones with the higher magic ratings in RPGs. Because, obviously, someone who can wear high heels and not trip wouldn't be able to do that without a high magic rating!

But I think Friedan found some negatives within that same set of sentimental attitudes. Maybe she was worried that, if women are regarded invariably as the ones who nurture, then society will have a tendency -- sometimes rock solid and observable in legal codes, sometimes softer and more nebulous -- to guide them into reproduction. More dangerously: if we honor the mystical cooking abilities of a middle class stay-at-home-mom in the US during the 1940s, or the fact that Abigail Adams did a right good job of advising her husband the second President of the United States, it might fool us into thinking we've given them their due when, maybe, we really haven't. That 1940s stay-at-home-mom might have preferred to go into cancer research, and maybe Abigail could have been president herself -- and a better one -- if things had been different.

I have to reach back into history because I can't think of too too many prominent examples who are more recent, and that is good. But the work of feminism isn't done once certain trends have been started, because there are still deeply-rooted problems to be dealt with. Not to mention that a single major ultraconservative backlash could obliterate the gains we've made during the past century. Ultraconservative backlashes have been doing this throughout history, possibly; it would be irresponsible of feminists to think that their work is now finished in the United States and other countries that have had successful feminist movements lately.

There's a significant amount of misogyny still seething within at least some sections of Western society, at level I didn't recognize until I began digging deeper and even finding it within myself -- it's a thing that becomes programmed over time. The belief that there is a mystical connection between men and women, and that one needs the other to be complete, can be harmless and romantic on the one hand. On the other, it can make men and women feel compelled to enter relationships or sexual encounters they might have been better off not pursuing, or maybe didn't even truly want to pursue aside from feeling that society demanded this of them. It is also a slap in the face to homosexuals, who get by just fine without their mystical better half; I suspect you didn't mean it in this sense, but it's still a concept we have to be careful with.

Now, if an individual man or woman finds meaning in traditional roles, I won't begrudge this of them, and I suspect most feminists wouldn't either; feminism's goal is simply to uproot that "mystique" in the sense in which it acts as something that actively shapes people's lives and constricts their choices. Indeed, feminist economic programs could empower some sections of women to choose traditional roles, and don all that magical mystique they've been locked out of due to sheer poverty; in the United States Sojourner Truth did a great job of (blowing the lid open on the fact that some women might have very much enjoyed being sheltered housewives, spending time with their kids as opposed to working their hands raw in the fields and factories.


Feminism doesn't mean we can't embrace our differences as traditionally defined; it means that when we do, we're really doing that because it floats our boats and not because we feel forced to due to some external command, whether that command is hard-coded or implied repeatedly. At least, this is my personal take on what the movement means.

EDIT: It's true, of course, that men can't bear children; I really consider that the final frontier of separation between the sexes. As I've been saying all along...

[ZeaLitY]

Women are routinely raped and physically oppressed in other parts of the world. And the first world is still one in which women are socially oppressed in a variety of ways, whether legal, religious, or cultural.

There is a lot of work to be done.

[GenesisOne]

If you’re going to combat against gender oppression, here's my suggestion for a good starting place (remember, it's only a suggestion, not a command):

Take your fight to the Islamic people over in the Middle East, where their governments reinforce the strictest theocracies in the world.  There, women aren’t allowed to vote.  They need written permission from a man to study, work, or travel.  The religious police are everywhere making sure that women are covered, that women aren’t driving cars, and other gender-oppressive actions.  These religious police are no better than the Taliban, and those guys are scary enough.

You're right.  There is a lot of work to be done.

[Jutty]

[FaustWolf]

Take your fight to the Islamic people over in the Middle East, where their governments reinforce the strictest theocracies in the world.  There, women aren’t allowed to vote.  They need written permission from a man to study, work, or travel.  The religious police are everywhere making sure that women are covered, that women aren’t driving cars, and other gender-oppressive actions.  These religious police are no better than the Taliban, and those guys are scary enough.

The question of properly combating the hard-coded sexism present in some countries foreign to feminists in the USA/Canada/Europe/Developed East is an important one. It must be done, but how to do it is a question I'm still unclear on. I'm worried that if feminism as it exists in non-Islamic countries appears imposed, like cultural invasion, it could potentially be rebuffed. I'd rather find ways of supporting movements that already exist in these places; donating to a microlending organization like Kiva could empower women in some Islamic countries, though I still need to check out how Kiva aid is targeted; but I think that's what I'm going to settle on. There's also the possibility of providing logistical support like Internet organizing tactics, and supporting feminist-positive media creators in those places...again, that's a "somehow."


As for that tongue-in-cheek pic Jutty posted, I happen to think feminists can be quite attractive.

[ZombieBucky]

this just fired me up.
today i was at my cousins house with my brother and sister. i have three cousins from this particular relative: will, sam, and cassie. will and sam recently got an xbox360, along with guitar hero. they invited me and pat to play with them, and who am i to decline? ive been told i have a good sense of rhythm, but i have trouble hitting the fifth button.
then megan asked if she could play.
i personally feel that megan is very rhythmically gifted. shes the kind of person who sings out math formulas to remember them. so i told her that as soon as this song was over, id let her take the controller.
will then said no.
he didnt say why, but he said something about her not knowing how to work it right. keep in mind that will is about 12 right now and sam is 15. i explained that i would teach her how to hold it so that it couldnt break and that her hands wouldnt hurt (unless she played for like fifteen hours or something), but he said no. i think he said something about girls not knowing good video games. (keep in mind that megan is now a huge final fantasy fan and i will soon introduce her to chrono) we went back and forth until sam got into the middle of this and said that girls cant play video games, and if they try theyll fail horribly. i countered that some of the best gamers i had ever seen were, in fact, female. after a little bit of this they consented and megan promptly beat their high score. after that they turned it off and shunned me and megan from all activities.
while i was walking past their room to go to the bathroom before we left, i heard them refer to me as a fag.

yeah.
im a fag for sticking up for a girls right to play video games.
thats another big thing with sexism. its not just that guys feel like theyre being threatened (some do), but theyre afraid of being insulted for standing up. its either youre afraid for your job or status or something or youre afraid for your masculinity. for being tough and cold and unemotional and unthinking and a MAN.
if thats what being a man entails, then i dont want to be a man.

[FaustWolf]

Daaaamn, that fires me up just hearing about it. Great job Zombie, it's awesome that you were able to recognize an opportunity to directly combat sexism and acted on that.

[Uboa]

its either youre afraid for your job or status or something or youre afraid for your masculinity. for being tough and cold and unemotional and unthinking and a MAN.
if thats what being a man entails, then i dont want to be a man.

It is a terrible widespread perception, isn't it?  Sad to see it taken to that extent in youngsters.  One of the reasons I'm most grateful for this forum is that the male caricature you described is not the norm here, and it certainly is not promoted as ideal in any way.  How terrific that it is actually widely spurned here, and that it is regarded as more of a mental trap than anything.

I hope Will and Sam will come around sooner rather than later.  I'm not aware of gender politics among kids these days, but perhaps Will's perceptions of girls are still clouded by fear of cooties, or something along those lines.