Author Topic: AT&T blocks img.4chan.org  (Read 9059 times)

Exodus

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Re: AT&T blocks img.4chan.org
« Reply #30 on: July 28, 2009, 03:13:17 am »
Ugliness alone shouldn't be censored, but /b/ tastes like a breeding ground for domestic terrorists. I'd support any ISP who refuses to serve it up until the crimes instigated through or by /b/ can be codified...making this one of the extremely rare instances in which I'm siding with the big corporations and against the free speech crowd.

I'm probably influenced in my thinking by the ugly excesses of the French Revolution.


Are you serious?

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Re: AT&T blocks img.4chan.org
« Reply #31 on: July 28, 2009, 12:44:34 pm »
Ugliness alone shouldn't be censored, but /b/ tastes like a breeding ground for domestic terrorists. I'd support any ISP who refuses to serve it up until the crimes instigated through or by /b/ can be codified...making this one of the extremely rare instances in which I'm siding with the big corporations and against the free speech crowd.

I'm probably influenced in my thinking by the ugly excesses of the French Revolution.


Are you serious?

Exodus, coming from someone who lurked /b/ for quite a good while I'd have to agree with him. Sure, the board is filled mostly with underaged browsers looking to spout memes for mindless time wasting, but I can safely say that there are sex offenders and "domestic terrorists" on the site. Remember the bomb threat that came from a /b/tard, and the death threats to various people going to their home phones? There's a slew of child pornography on the board daily, as well. It's really not as harmless as one might think.

Thought

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Re: AT&T blocks img.4chan.org
« Reply #32 on: July 28, 2009, 02:00:22 pm »
And yet many of the flaws of 4chan share a similarity with the flaws of the printing press. Just as the internet and the printing press promote the free flow of valid and insightful information, both also promoted the flow of false information, inflammatory remarks, and smut. While pornography wasn't printed right alongside the Guttenberg bible, it was a pretty close thing.

Every tool that is capable of great good is also capable of great evil.

However, the internet has one aspect to it that is quite different from print-culture: the social settings. Internet communities mirror the stages of real world civilization to a fascinating degree. I envy Zeality, Daniel Krispin, and the other old timers who have been here since the beginning. They didn't just watch the changes of a simple forum; they've witnessed the rise and development of a civilization. This is a process that would have taken lifetimes in the real world, but here on display for mere mortals to experience.

Likewise, 4chan is a civilization. Perhaps like Josh fears, 4chan is a sister to the French Revolution. Yet the French Monarchy did not make out well by attempting to stifle that revolution; I can't help but wonder if AT&T will do much better with this one; history is not on their side.

Truthordeal

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Re: AT&T blocks img.4chan.org
« Reply #33 on: July 28, 2009, 03:45:03 pm »
With all due respect to J, its probably not a valid analogy to compare 4chan with the French Revolution, for several different reasons.

Besides, what would 4chan do anyway? Bomb an AT&T building? See how quickly that gets them shut down and locked up.

And Thought, I'd like to steal your comparison with the printing press for a bit.

If a piece of literature incites violence or treason, shows lewd images or describes the exploitation of children, then it can be considered contraband and banned, yes? In fact, you'll see book stores like Borders or Barnes and Noble who will not carry such materials unless they have some sort of intrinsic historical or literary value. Are these stores wrong to not carry them, and is their not carrying them indicative of censorship?

Likewise with 4chan. 4chan promotes violence, extreme obscenity and the exploitation of children, and breaks several of the US and International laws by doing so. 4chan is the stomping ground for Anonymous, a group of little more than domestic terrorists. Does its status as an Internet image board protect it? And is AT&T suddenly not allowed to approve of what it's servers hold, no more than Barnes and Noble is for what goes on its shelves?

And the original report said that AT&T didn't even ban the entire site, just /b/ and /r3k/, much like several libraries won't ban every book just because of one piece of child porn or incendiary literature.

And once again, if people are against AT&T or Barnes and Noble not hosting certain materials, then they can go to some other network or bookstore. The thing about the free market is that you're actually allowed to make that choice.

IAmSerge

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Re: AT&T blocks img.4chan.org
« Reply #34 on: July 28, 2009, 04:04:51 pm »
With all due respect to J, its probably not a valid analogy to compare 4chan with the French Revolution, for several different reasons.

Besides, what would 4chan do anyway?
Plan and orchestrate multiple DDOS attacks.
which is 100% illegal, and could be considered as an act of terrorism.

Quote
Bomb an AT&T building? See how quickly that gets them shut down and locked up.

And Thought, I'd like to steal your comparison with the printing press for a bit.

If a piece of literature incites violence or treason, shows lewd images or describes the exploitation of children, then it can be considered contraband and banned, yes? In fact, you'll see book stores like Borders or Barnes and Noble who will not carry such materials unless they have some sort of intrinsic historical or literary value. Are these stores wrong to not carry them, and is their not carrying them indicative of censorship?

Likewise with 4chan. 4chan promotes violence, extreme obscenity and the exploitation of children, and breaks several of the US and International laws by doing so. 4chan is the stomping ground for Anonymous, a group of little more than domestic terrorists. Does its status as an Internet image board protect it? And is AT&T suddenly not allowed to approve of what it's servers hold, no more than Barnes and Noble is for what goes on its shelves?

And the original report said that AT&T didn't even ban the entire site, just /b/ and /r3k/, much like several libraries won't ban every book just because of one piece of child porn or incendiary literature.

And once again, if people are against AT&T or Barnes and Noble not hosting certain materials, then they can go to some other network or bookstore. The thing about the free market is that you're actually allowed to make that choice.

I like everything else you're saying =D

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Re: AT&T blocks img.4chan.org
« Reply #35 on: July 28, 2009, 05:56:42 pm »
And once again, if people are against AT&T or Barnes and Noble not hosting certain materials, then they can go to some other network or bookstore. The thing about the free market is that you're actually allowed to make that choice.

But if censorship of the internet and literature continue to grow, those networks and bookstores might not exist anymore.

IAmSerge

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Re: AT&T blocks img.4chan.org
« Reply #36 on: July 28, 2009, 07:09:08 pm »
And once again, if people are against AT&T or Barnes and Noble not hosting certain materials, then they can go to some other network or bookstore. The thing about the free market is that you're actually allowed to make that choice.

But if censorship of the internet and literature continue to grow, those networks and bookstores might not exist anymore.

Adult bookstores still exist, so I really don't think theres anything to be worried about.

Mountain out of a molehill, the way I see it.. eh?

Besides... this is private companies we're talking about, not the federal government.  There will always be that one place there to provide the "everything else" catagory.

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Re: AT&T blocks img.4chan.org
« Reply #37 on: July 28, 2009, 09:32:53 pm »
And once again, if people are against AT&T or Barnes and Noble not hosting certain materials, then they can go to some other network or bookstore. The thing about the free market is that you're actually allowed to make that choice.

But if censorship of the internet and literature continue to grow, those networks and bookstores might not exist anymore.

Adult bookstores still exist, so I really don't think theres anything to be worried about.

Mountain out of a molehill, the way I see it.. eh?

Besides... this is private companies we're talking about, not the federal government.  There will always be that one place there to provide the "everything else" catagory.

Tell that to Germany and China.

Exodus

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Re: AT&T blocks img.4chan.org
« Reply #38 on: July 29, 2009, 01:17:57 am »
Ugliness alone shouldn't be censored, but /b/ tastes like a breeding ground for domestic terrorists. I'd support any ISP who refuses to serve it up until the crimes instigated through or by /b/ can be codified...making this one of the extremely rare instances in which I'm siding with the big corporations and against the free speech crowd.

I'm probably influenced in my thinking by the ugly excesses of the French Revolution.


Are you serious?

Exodus, coming from someone who lurked /b/ for quite a good while I'd have to agree with him. Sure, the board is filled mostly with underaged browsers looking to spout memes for mindless time wasting, but I can safely say that there are sex offenders and "domestic terrorists" on the site. Remember the bomb threat that came from a /b/tard, and the death threats to various people going to their home phones? There's a slew of child pornography on the board daily, as well. It's really not as harmless as one might think.

Oh undoubtedly. But to suggest the large numbers of pedophiles and crazy people in general are going to stop trolling /b/ to thrash down society as a whole is a bit of a stretch.  As to the bomb threat, I can only recall two: the football bomb scare (DON'T MESS WITH FOOTBALL) and some dumbass kid making pipe bombs to blow up at his school. The dumbass kid, as I recall, was a real threat, but if you'll also recall, it was the denizens of /b/ themselves who reported him to his local police or the school or some such. The death threats are iffy, but if you're actually one who has perused /b/ for several years you tend to realize one thing: /b/tards love their shock value. Then again, I have never  taken anything on /b/ remotely seriously.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2009, 01:23:50 am by Exodus »

Radical_Dreamer

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Re: AT&T blocks img.4chan.org
« Reply #39 on: July 29, 2009, 02:54:39 am »
If crimes are committed on 4chan, that is a problem for law enforcement to deal with. AT&T is not a law enforcement agency.

Truthordeal

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Re: AT&T blocks img.4chan.org
« Reply #40 on: July 29, 2009, 02:56:21 am »
No, AT&T just provides people with access to 4chan. If it chooses to deny that access because of criminal activity, then that's its decision.

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Re: AT&T blocks img.4chan.org
« Reply #41 on: July 29, 2009, 03:14:49 am »
No, AT&T just provides people with access to 4chan. If it chooses to deny that access because of criminal activity, then that's its decision.

If AT&T decides of its own volition that a website is operating illegally, and blocks the site on that basis, that is AT&T acting in the role of law enforcement, which they have no right to do, and is possibly an illegal violation of AT&Ts contracts with its customers.

Truthordeal

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Re: AT&T blocks img.4chan.org
« Reply #42 on: July 29, 2009, 07:45:35 am »
If AT&T decides of its own volition that a website is operating illegally, and blocks the site on that basis, that is AT&T acting in the role of law enforcement, which they have no right to do

Oh, yes they do. They are providing the service, and they can make decisions on what content they do provide and what content they don't provide.

Example: Just yesterday, 20th Century Fox decided to pull an episode of Family Guy that even they thought went over the limits of decency and good taste. Were they within their rights? Hell yes they were, because they can and should be allowed to decide what type of content they provide.

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and is possibly an illegal violation of AT&Ts contracts with its customers.

Possibly. And if they are, then they lose all standing.

But, if the contract doesn't say they can't restrict websites, then they can. It is within their "rights" as a provider of the service, much for the same reason that 20th Century Fox is allowed to pull an episode of Family Guy that they find distasteful.

It may be considered censorship and it may be considered undue censorship by some in this case but AT&T is acting well within their own authority.

Now, as I've said before, if people find the notion of AT&T blocking /b/ and /r3k/ that repugnant, then they can switch to a different service. However, as I've also said before, AT&T seems to have pull back, so it doesn't really matter at this point.

ZeaLitY

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Re: AT&T blocks img.4chan.org
« Reply #43 on: July 29, 2009, 07:54:29 am »
If AT&T decides of its own volition that a website is operating illegally, and blocks the site on that basis, that is AT&T acting in the role of law enforcement, which they have no right to do

Oh, yes they do. They are providing the service, and they can make decisions on what content they do provide and what content they don't provide.

Example: Just yesterday, 20th Century Fox decided to pull an episode of Family Guy that even they thought went over the limits of decency and good taste. Were they within their rights? Hell yes they were, because they can and should be allowed to decide what type of content they provide.

Different situation. The legal argument could be made that AT&T is a facilitator of communication and speech within the United States, which grants the right of free speech. This isn't AT&T hosting its own discussion forum, or like Fox hosting its own TV channel; this is AT&T enabling public communication all over the country (to both private and public forums and places of report and news), and censorship of what someone could access through its invisible service could constitute a breach of free speech. It's sort of like electric utilities. They provide the commodity of electricity, but that commodity is so important to the function of civilization that governmental regulation is in place to ensure operation. In this case, a huge telecommunications company is so important to communication in this nation that it becomes necessary to enforce free speech through it.

More sophisticated legal arguments can and have been made, especially for net neutrality.

Thought

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Re: AT&T blocks img.4chan.org
« Reply #44 on: July 29, 2009, 11:21:27 am »
Allow me to attempt to be thorough. Here is the issue:

Was it right for AT&T to block access to 4chan?

There are a number of ways that one might address it, since "right" is rather open ended. So I will address the issue from a multitude of perspectives: business (that is, profit), business ethics, legal, and desirable.

From a pure profit standpoint, we may discard the questions of 4chan's actions. It does not matter if any sort of criminal activity is going on; as long as it is profitable, it is good. So, would AT&T's actions have benefited the company financially? In the short term, yes. The activities of the site are of no importance; what is important is the amount of traffic that accesses the site, particularly the traffic that utilizes AT&T's infrastructure. The more traffic there is, the heftier the infrastructure has to be, which turns into costs (both to implement and maintain). By no longer accepting a significant bulk of traffic (what we'd normally call a DDoS attack), AT&T would relieve strain on their resources. Short term, it saves them money. Long term is too complex for me to feel comfortable commenting; it depends on the public’s reaction to the situation. It might well result in a decrease of profits over the long term, however, if this causes consumers to find alternate sources.

From a Business Ethics standpoint, we may still largely ignore any questions of the legal nature of actions that occur on 4chan. Rather, AT&T has made a contract with its customers. AT&T will provide a service, the customers will pay for the service, and everyone is happy (ideally). The service in question is access to the internet (through the infrastructure that AT&T provides). AT&T's actions violate that contract; whereas before their customers had access to the entire internet (and that was the service for which they were paying), AT&T swapped out the product. They wanted to only provide access to part of the internet, but were still charging their customers for access to the whole internet. In essence, the contract was that AT&T would provide service A and the customer would pay for service A. But under the new model, AT&T was providing service B while the customer was paying for (and expecting) service A. Bad business ethics, thus it was the wrong course of action. Furthermore, assuming AT&T was primarily concerned about the infrastructure stress associated with DDoS attacks, their attempt to reduce strain by limiting access to a site is really just their attempt to reduce the likelihood of consumers from utilizing the services that they have purchased. The strain on the infrastructure came from multiple users (in this case, user computers) accessing their paid-for services at the same time in an inconvenient manner. By restricting access to 4chan, AT&T was attempting to restrict what was, from an internal limited perspective, legitimate use of paid-for services.

From a legal standpoint we may now address the issues of dubious behaviors. Such behaviors, assuming they are not housed on AT&T servers, are outside AT&T's realm of concern. They can neither say that such behaviors are legal or illegal. If they know that a specific individual is engaging in illegal activity, they are quite within their rights to notify the authorities and refuse to provide additional services (taking away services that the individual has already paid for, however, becomes highly dubious and could be considered stealing). If AT&T was targeting specific individuals who they believed were responsible for illegal activities and if they merely denied them further services (instead of taking back services already paid for), then they might have legal justification. However, their actions were not limited to criminals or potential criminals but a broad, multifaceted swatch of the population. This could reasonably be considered to be a violation of anti-discrimination laws: AT&T could no more deny service to the groups of people who wish to access 4chan than they can deny service to women, or blacks, or homosexuals. This is, admittedly, a broad interpretation of consumer laws; one would need an actual court case to determine if it is too broad. Regardless, the legality of AT&T's intentional discrimination is dubious, at best.

So then we have the question as to if it is desirable (regardless of profits or laws) for AT&T to restrict access to 4chan. From a consumer perspective, no. No restriction on consumer freedom is desirable. From a business perspective, no. No limiting of one's potential market is desirable. From an objective standpoint, we could potentially say yes. 4chan is hardly a bastion of civility; it is curled up and died, I doubt the world would suffer (and it may well be a better place for it). However, even if we say that 4chan should not exist in an ideal world, there is still the question as to if AT&T restricting access is desirable. Given the above, even if access should be restricted, it would seem that AT&T being the one to restrict it is undesirable. And finally, it is desirable for information to be freely available and easily accessibly. This concept is what allows humanity to develop; any restriction to that concept is a restriction to humanity itself and I will no truck with it.

Your standpoint, ToD, is that, as a private business, AT&T is free to provide what services it desires to whom it desires, correct? Unfortunately that is not the reality. AT&T is limited by anti-discrimination labor and consumer laws; it has to provide services equally to all parts of society, within reason (I doubt anyone could sue because AT&T doesn't provide internet access in the middle of Death Valley, for example). The key is on if they are free to provide what services it wants. To an extent, yes, but once it has already committed to providing a service, it is bound to providing those services or returning the money. Terms of Service agreements may at times be changed without prior notice, but the services themselves cannot be. All customers should have been notified of AT&T's change and offered the opportunity to end their service immediately and receive a pro-rated refund. Furthermore, in the future, they would have had to avoid false advertising. As it is assumed presently that businesses that provide internet access to the entire internet, AT&T would need to specifically note that their service is different and only provide access to a portion of the internet.