Poll

What is your relationship to libertarianism?

I am a libertarian!
1 (7.7%)
I have many libertarian leanings.
0 (0%)
I have a few libertarian leanings.
3 (23.1%)
I oppose libertarianism.
5 (38.5%)
I don't know enough about it to say.
3 (23.1%)
I'm more an ideological capitalist but I call myself libertarian.
1 (7.7%)
I have no opinion.
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 12

Author Topic: A Discussion on Libertarianism  (Read 1564 times)

Lord J Esq

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A Discussion on Libertarianism
« on: August 11, 2009, 10:07:25 pm »
(Note: If you're in a hurry, the top half of this post is about fake libertarians (i.e., conservatives), and the bottom half, below the line, is about real libertarians.)

As a writer, what do you think I do when I want to procrastinate from writing? Why, I write, of course! I just write on a different topic. Somehow that makes a difference.

One topic on my mind lately is libertarianism, lowercase-L. It’s an ideology which serves to remind us that the political universe has more than one dimension to it, even though one-dimensional, spectrum politics happens to dominate the national discourse here and in many other countries. Lacking a strong organizational apparatus here and elsewhere, the libertarians are perennially a political sideshow, at best reduced to spoiler status, and at worst a nonentity altogether.

Libertarianism is a fascinating subject, but the reason it’s been on my mind lately is because I’ve noticed that one side-effect of the ongoing civil war in the Republican Party is that more conservatives are calling themselves libertarian. These are people whose ideology is such that to write them into the libertarian equation would be to render the term “libertarian” broad to the point of meaninglessness. A case in point is Peter Thiel, best known for creating PayPal, who wrote an article earlier this year lamenting that:

Quote from: Peter Thiel
Since 1920, the vast increase in welfare beneficiaries and the extension of the franchise to women — two constituencies that are notoriously tough for libertarians — have rendered the notion of “capitalist democracy” into an oxymoron.

That got a lot of play on the blogs, and is still getting around now: I just saw it on sci-fi website io9.com yesterday. When I read the article, which culminates in Thiel’s renunciation of democracy and his assertion that libertarians must flee society and live either on the Internet, in space, or on the ocean, it struck me that this person isn’t a libertarian at all—not in the way that I understand libertarianism. His rant was that of an ideological laissez-faire capitalist.

There’s another word for people like that: Ferengi.

It was Thiel’s comment about female suffrage that hit the point home. When I read that, I immediately thought of how Ferengi society doesn’t even allow females to wear clothes, let alone wield any kind of meaningful power. I actually said to myself, aloud, “(That son of a bitch.) He’s a fucking Ferengi!”

Thiel, contrary to his rhetoric, is not particularly interested in freedoms and self-determination. He’s just another sour grapes Objectivist who wants more power and money for himself, and sees the public as an antagonist—especially when it comes to demographic groups outside his own. He’s nothing new, and in my personal opinion he poses no threat. The only thing that changed as a result of the article is my comfort level with using PayPal, since I have no interest in profiting people like him. (I’ll have to look into it more to see what his current financial relationship with the company is.)

Here’s why he got to write that opinion piece:

It wasn’t all that long ago that BioShock came out. The political backdrop of this game was an oversimplified counterstroke against Objectivist ideals, which had the effect of putting Ayn Rand back in the public conscious, leading to a surge in the popularity of her books, which are the centerpiece of Objectivism.

Around the same time, the Republican Congress—which had overseen the biggest government in American history—finally collapsed due to corruption and rank incompetence, and the Bush administration found that most of his supporters were fair-weather friends who no longer wished to be associated with what they saw as a failed president. I smirk to this day at all those right-wingers who insist—insist!—that Bush was not a “true” conservative, seeing as how he was exactly a true conservative—a traditionalist ideologue who worked hard to preserve the existing social and economic order—and was supported as such in the first five years of his presidency. But of course nobody wants to admit that their ideology is a failure. It was not conservatism that had failed, the conservatives demanded: It was the Republicans who had failed conservatism!

Well, you can connect the dots fro mhere: Objectivism, which had always been popular among the corporate wing of the conservative movement, enjoyed a resurgence throughout the conservative movement, and all of these opinion articles and talking heads started cropping up in the media claiming that the Republican Party had lost power because it had strayed from the principles of capitalism and had instead embraced “statism”—a term used exclusively by right-wingers, to describe people like me who favor a strong central government and high public spending. This meme picked up steam as the economy broke down and the incoming Democrats chose to spend their way out of oblivion. The argument became that Republicans had become too much like Democrats, and that America’s political system had shut out the real conservatives entirely. Ayn Rand got even more play in the news, and a new fad sprang into being: the short-lived “Going Galt” movement, whereby prominent conservative industrialists urged one another to follow the lead of John Galt (from Rand’s book) and abandon society, and, in so doing, demonstrate that they were the real workers, the real earners, the real people who made society function, and that everyone else was just dead weight.

Not surprisingly, that little revolution never caught on, and Objectivism per se has crested as a media point of interest and has slowly been fading from the news. But the odyssey of conservatism continues. The factions of conservatism want to reform the Republican Party, or escape from it altogether, and the corporate conservatives are doing all that they can to win these fights and achieve dominance—or at least retain their considerable power under the previous order.

One outcome of their efforts has been the revival of the label of libertarianism among conservatives, which is why I have led you on this little contemporary political history walk. You may have noticed over the past two years or so that the number of people who identify themselves as Republican has gone way down. What are those people now calling themselves instead? A great many of them have flocked to the label of “libertarian.” Isn’t that neat! By their logic, it turns out that “true conservatism” is actually libertarianism.

You’ll have to forgive my eye rolling, since all of these newly awakened “libertarians” still monolithically vote Republican, and still believe in the principles of conservatism. All they did was change the title of their beliefs to something more palatable. They’ll be Republicans again as soon as that party’s fortunes are on the rise, but for now they’re bold, noble-minded independents who stand on principle and just want to get America back to its libertarian foundations. Ugh…

These people are not the ones who interest me. They’re opportunistic right-wingers: bitter capitalists, greedy corporatists, racists, rich snobs, and those who buy into the notion of small government without comprehending the implications of it—and often hold contradictory views on their preferred role of government!

Real libertarianism—the genuine article—is much more fascinating, and that’s what’s been in my mind lately. So, everything up to this point was simply my account of why the subject has been on my mind. How’s that for verbosity? Now I can finally get on to the actual subject of libertarianism…


Real libertarianism, in my view, is obsolete. I don’t mean that there aren’t people who still believe in it: I mean that it simply doesn’t work in a populous, prosperous, developed, and stable nation that has come to expect a certain material quality of life. Libertarians oppose a large, intrusive government, and yet what does such a thing consist of?

On one hand, there is the “large” aspect of it. Most of the size of government comes from the staffing required to operate the government’s numerous programs. The question is what would happen to America if we ended these programs. I looked hard for an authoritative list of all the government’s funding outlays, and the best I could find was this website, a private website whose information is several years out of date. If anyone has a better source, I’d like to see it for myself, but for the time being this list provides a good point of reference. You don’t have to read very far down the alphabetized list to see objectionable items—Item No. 8 is $41 million for abstinence education—but the vast majority of these items are conspicuous precisely because they are not objectionable. Can anyone really look at that list and object to the principle of most of these items? No doubt there are inefficiencies that result in money wastage, but that’s a very different argument than the one which contends these programs should most be canceled outright.

The thing about libertarians is that they can object, usually on the assumption that whatever purpose a government program serves is either extraneous or can be better performed by people and businesses acting on their own volition. The reality is that this is not true: Much of what the government does is not going to be done by private businesses who are constrained by the profit motive, or by individuals who are constrained by a lack of capital, and would be sorely missed if the government closed up shop. Some of what the government does would be undertaken by private interests, with results that would often be inconsistent or disturbing. It’s not a coincidence that the size of the government has expanded in conjunction with our quality of life. A massive contraction in government spending would result very quickly in breakdowns all across society, because our collective quality of life, and our stability as a nation, depends in large part on those very programs. Libertarians disagree, or would agree that our way of life depends on government as it exists now, but would disagree that our current way of life is beneficial to us as a society.

That last bit is a very troublesome problem indeed, because there are way too many people alive for us to revert to an earlier, lower quality of life, and espousing an anti-government ideology without accounting for this is a huge omission that cannot be similarly overlooked in practice.

What large government is not is some huge office building full of bureaucrats who take long lunch breaks and generate paperwork for a living. I know at least as many people who work “for the government” in some fashion as who work for the private sector, and what consistently stands out to me in these public servants is the importance of the work they do, the passion they have for their field, and, not unrelatedly in my opinion, their awareness as human beings and their respect for others. I know that my observations are anecdotal and therefore not as compelling as they could be with better empirical data, but I am satisfied to my own high standards that the legend of government being inherently and hugely more wasteful than the private sector is a myth, and that government’s size is a function of our progress as a society.

Don’t get me wrong: There is definitely waste; there is waste all throughout the continuum of human endeavor. But as for the argument that government is a much worse offender…I don’t buy it. I’ve seen more waste in the corporate sector than I have from the government, including hundreds of dollars spent by Qwest over a ten-day period to diagnose and repair a faulty phone jack that had disrupted my Internet connection. Actual repair time: less than ten minutes.

I think the efficiency of a program comes down to the program itself, the people who run it, and the people they have to interact with. I think that’s true in business, and true in the government.

Then, on the other hand, there is the “intrusive” aspect of a large government. To some extent, the intrusiveness is a byproduct of all those government-funded programs I mentioned—i.e., a byproduct of the size of government. Much of it, however, is completely distinct: Here we’re talking about government legislation imposing restrictions and controls on our behavior as individuals. This is a much more compelling issue for me than that of the size of government, because this side of the topic gets into some of my favorite questions about what people are likely to do on their own initiative, and what they need to do (or not do) in order for society to remain stable. Ideally, people would be all-knowing and would exercise flawless judgment, in which case would not need any laws, but of course we are not ideal and therefore we need laws in order for society to function. More than that: We also need these laws to be widely if not universally obeyed.

The reason this stuff is so compelling for me is because I’m one of those people who lives at the end of the bell curve: I’m responsible, knowledgeable, prudent, and considerate, to a degree that many people are not—closer to the ideal. I don’t need as many laws as the next person, and the laws that I do need are not necessarily the same as those needed by the next person. When I was younger, I didn’t fully understand just how easy some things are for me when compared to others, and so my visions of a better society used me as the basic civic unit. That, obviously, was not representative of reality. My earlier visions of better societies would therefore clearly have failed.

Much of my political philosophy since then has been devoted toward building a better image of how a better society would actually work. You may notice that I talk a lot about influencing children; that’s because I’ve reached the conclusion that full-scale reeducation of adults en masse is not viable in our present society, and that forcing behavior changes in adults would usually be counterproductive.

The vast majority of my common ground with libertarianism occurs here, in these questions of how to control people in order to produce a better society, because I generally prefer to allow people (adults, anyhow) to live freely, even if they choose to live poorly as a result of their freedom. I make many exceptions, such as my severe attitude toward opposing sexism, or, less ambiguously, my support for no-brainer controls like the seatbelt law, but on the whole I think it is healthier for a society not to micromanage its denizens’ behavior.

The specific areas of our concurrence—libertarianism and myself—are mostly limited to the social realm. I rapidly depart from the libertarians on issues like taxation and environmental stewardship, the former because of my view on the importance of government spending, and the latter because of the obvious environmental ruin that has occurred in the absence of strong government controls, which now threatens to become the most serious danger to civilization, and is already on the scale of an “extinction level event” with regard to life as a whole on this planet.

Bringing these two issues back together: There is plenty of room to argue legitimately over what government should be funding and what it shouldn’t. I would volunteer that there is nothing wrong with requiring a government program to demonstrate its effectiveness. Likewise, there is plenty of room to argue about how the government should be controlling our behavior. These debates are valid. The problem with libertarianism is that, valid though the debates may be, the libertarians are bound to lose most of them, because they insist that government should be as small as possible rather than as large as necessary, and most people disagree with the ultimate conclusions of that, especially as it pertains to our way of life: We’re all enamored of the idea of some pastoral utopia, which the libertarians are quick to associate with themselves, but the romance is a veneer and the history of our human tale presents itself readily when we ponder the possibility of regressing to an earlier state of civilization.

Is it possible for libertarianism to advocate moving forward? Yes, it is, and it does: Progress through private innovation and free enterprise. However, this vision lacks the supporting structure that would make it viable. We’ve only gotten to where we are through extensive government manipulation of the human equation. Even that is a remarkable accomplishment, and many people died to win the freedoms we have today. Libertarianism proposes erasing our greatest ally: a public entity, the government, which is theoretically accountable to us in a way that corporations and wealthy individuals are not: and replacing it with what amounts to good intentions. That doesn’t work.

That’s why I said libertarianism is obsolete. There could have been a time when it would have worked, but society today is too complicated to function under a small government. This complexity is what enables us to live as well as we do. We’re not willing to give that up, and so libertarianism has faded as practical ideology.

One of my favorite bits about the subject of libertarianism is how sincere most libertarians are. (The real ones, that is; not those fake libertarians.) Many of them came into their ideology as a result of their upbringing: They grew up on a farm, or reading Heinlein (or both!). They have witnessed a dysfunctional, crime-ridden city center. They’ve gone through the hell of getting a city or a county permit. They’ve had to stand in line at the Department of Licensing (or the Department of Motor Vehicles if you’re not a Washingtonian). They pay their taxes, yet they still drive over potholes in the road and sit in traffic jams on the freeway. There’s so much in our lives which points to government incompetence. It’s easy and understandable for people to look at this and conclude that government just doesn’t work well, and shouldn’t be trusted to lord over us.

It’s one of those many occasions when the simple answer is the wrong one.

GenesisOne

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Re: A Discussion on Libertarianism
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2009, 11:44:40 pm »

Boy, that was a long read.  Now that I'm composed again with your two cents worth in my coin purse of knowledge, here's my question:

Are you, by any chance, promoting a form of anarchism?

I've had enough personal experience (and a few American Government and Economics classes) to know that our liberty as residents of the U.S. is inversely proportionate to the size of our government. 

In the words of Gerald Fold:
"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."

I'm not really a libertarian, but I do have a few libertarian teachings on my shoulders (e.g. a progressive tax).  Now that I'm older and wiser, I now know that such a teaching does not fit my world views.

Supporting a progressive tax is that same as saying "I'm perfectly fine with the rich getting richer, as long as poor people aren't becoming too poor."  To them, it's not about smothering the rich people with wealth or punishing the rich people with astounding tax rates.  It's about helping the poor.  On the other hand, last time I checked, poor people have the power to invest their hard-earned money as well.

Libertarianism, like religion, should be taken in moderation, not to the extreme.  Otherwise, you'd be ticking off a lot of people about your views and beliefs as they not necessarily agree with you.  Wouldn't you agree?


Lord J Esq

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Re: A Discussion on Libertarianism
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2009, 01:01:14 am »
Are you, by any chance, promoting a form of anarchism?

Heavens no! Anarchism is just about the antithesis of what I stand for. Not quite the antithesis, since I suppose the perfect opposite of anarchism would be totalitarianism, and I’m not for that either.

I’m a meritocratic imperialist. To go into more detail about that would be another “long read,” which would totally distract from the topic of libertarianism, but suffice it to say that I am about as anarchistic as Julius Caesar was.

I've had enough personal experience (and a few American Government and Economics classes) to know that our liberty as residents of the U.S. is inversely proportionate to the size of our government.

I disagree. When you look at the most basic power in our country, the vote, it is specifically the guarantee of government which entitles people to that right, and every time we sought to expand the franchise, it took not only an act of congress, but a constitutional amendment—the very highest level of government intervention.

This is only the most straightforward example of the power of government to create and protect liberty. There are many others.

For instance, we’ve seen what happens in areas where the government breaks down: crime and mayhem go way up. It is thus that our security services, perhaps the closest thing to a symbol of government oppression, actually serve to protect our right to the American way of life.

It was the meddling of our courts that ended many forms of discrimination, advancing our liberties considerably. For instance, it was primarily the courts that have given gays the right to marry in some states. I don’t know how anyone could plausibly define the right to marry as a curb on liberty.

Legislation like Title IX has opened the world of sports up to millions of girls around the country: It turns out that they like sports too. How is this oppressive?

Agencies like the EPA and USDA are tasked with preserving the health and safety of our food and water. If you’ve ever had to worry about dying from your next meal, you can appreciate how liberating it is to be able to trust that your food and water are safe. This wasn’t always so: Upton Sinclair was raking muck a hundred years ago.

And the list goes on and on. Most of the time, when oppression occurs at the hands of our government, it isn’t because the government is too big, but because it is corrupt or ignorant—neither of which is dependent on the government’s size. Small governments can be notoriously bad, too. China has this problem right now, as the relatively efficient central government battles rampant corruption and territorialism on the part of local and regional governments nationwide. An even more direct example would be that of American enterprise: It’s the small businesses that put on the most dizzying displays of malfeasance. The big businesses are big enough that it isn’t an option for them to be completely dysfunctional. Wal-Mart, for instance, is many things, but a total fraud isn’t one of them. You’re not going to find out that the shirts you bought there yesterday are stolen goods, or that the clerk cleaned out your credit account after you showed them your card. Government is like that, too: With literally millions of citizens looking on, the government has to at least occasionally get things right, or else there’d be civic or revolutionary uprisings.

In the words of Gerald Fold:
"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have..."

This is true, or more accurately a truism, but the insinuation is false. Just because a government can do a thing doesn’t mean that it will do that thing. The agent of this restraint is often nothing more honorable than crass political expediency, but, whatever the mechanism, its effect should not be ignored. The fact of the matter is that our government is extremely unlikely to “take everything we have,” even though our leaders already do have it in their power to destroy our way of life completely and fleece us for everything we own—or to just friggin’ nuke the whole country and flee to Aruba. They’re not going to do that, though. They’re just not going to, because it’s blatantly against their own interests.

President Ford should have performed a little critical analysis before he made that comment. Of course, if he had, then he wouldn’t have given history this pithy little nothing that people are still repeating today.

Supporting a progressive tax is that same as saying "I'm perfectly fine with the rich getting richer, as long as poor people aren't becoming too poor."  To them, it's not about smothering the rich people with wealth or punishing the rich people with astounding tax rates.  It's about helping the poor.  On the other hand, last time I checked, poor people have the power to invest their hard-earned money as well.

This is one of those classical political arguments about which most people’s minds are made up. I for one would point out simply that all dollars of income are not equal: Instead they become increasingly disposable (relative to the minimum acceptable material quality of life) as a person’s income rises relative to that of others. When we get to the point of talking about someone who takes in tens of millions of dollars in income every year, there’s no worry of starvation or homelessness. Thus the income becomes more and more taxable, and the only argument against doing so is that those dollars, if left to the individual who owns them, would be better spent on the wellbeing of society—an assumption which is both logically and demonstrably false: They’ll spend the money on their own interests, not society’s, and it’s up to chance if the two overlap. Many of us therefore never see a penny of a rich person’s untaxed wealth; it’s tied up in capital firms or in the markets, where it goes primarily toward enriching shareholder dividends. The taxed portion, however, touches us every day, from the courts to the freeways.

I understand the impulse behind the argument that a person’s earnings should not be “stolen.” Even if you overlook the fact that many of these people get their money in the first place not through hard work, or even smart work, but by plundering their customers, it is still the case that those kinds of profits are only possible in the first place in a prosperous society. Even if they don’t realize it, the wealthy benefit from our stable society just like the rest of us. Taxation turns out not to be thievery, and greed, ironically but unsurprisingly, turns out to be unprofitable in the big picture.

Here is another way to look at it: Society gave you everything you have, by giving you the opportunity to succeed. Without it, even the wealthiest person’s fortune would be nothing more than a few smooth rocks from the river and maybe an animal skin or two. Thus, the debt of the prosperous and well-to-do is far greater than that of those who barely scrape by. Where does society come from? Not from the individual, but from many individuals working together. The most successful among us, owe the most to the rest of us. That can be recouped through taxation.

Libertarianism, like religion, should be taken in moderation, not to the extreme.  Otherwise, you'd be ticking off a lot of people about your views and beliefs as they not necessarily agree with you.  Wouldn't you agree?

Oh, I don’t know. I’m not particularly worried about ticking people off. After all, I’m not the president: Who really cares what I say? Anyone who gets ticked off at me is as inconsequential to me as I am to them. I’m much more interested in the exchange of ideas than in preserving people’s sensibilities.

ZeaLitY

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Re: A Discussion on Libertarianism
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2009, 01:26:09 am »
One of the assumptions I'd like to see thrown out of the window is the profit motive. In the health care debate especially, many people are arguing with the underlying assumption that health care and other government programs have to make a profit. This isn't true for a number of reasons; most iconic of which is that this is a civilized country, and good health care for its citizens should be a right. It's a mark of a mature nation, just like a system of roads, electricity, and so on.

The free market also does not guarantee good health care for everyone. To borrow an Ezra Klein example, look at the market for Lexus cars: only well-to-do people can afford them, and Lexus provides a supply appropriate to satisfy this demand. This market has reached its efficient equilibrium. Likewise, health care, which is an expensive business to operate, would naturally find an equilibrium that excludes people who aren't so well off. That's not the goal. To go back to road paving up there, imagine if the highway system had been a private matter, with individual towns and cities having to pony up cash to pay an entity to bring roads to their limits. The exorbitant cost of building and maintaining roads would have led to an equilibrium excluding most small towns and cities, and we'd be left with gross inaccessibility and immobility. Profit motive is just not the way to go in some cases.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 01:34:46 am by ZeaLitY »

KebreI

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Re: A Discussion on Libertarianism
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2009, 02:15:16 am »
I did see a rise people mentioning Objectivism, I never connected it with Bioshock...huh its a shame. My father is an Objectivist and I must say the BioShock is a horrible, one sided, and inaccurate way to learn. I find then most real Objectivists although money is there measure of worth its not there goal. Its always a goal of improving yourself. Greed as a virtue isn't only applicable to monetary gain.

GenesisOne

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Re: A Discussion on Libertarianism
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2009, 03:26:00 am »

Wow.  You are very knowledgeable and very well-versed in the mindset of libertarianism.

After that read, I'm gonna have to change my political views a bit.

You were merely taking about libertarianism as "ruling with as little government as possible."  I should have paid more attention to your wording.

Anarchy literally means "without rules."  Libertarians, on the other hand, are very rules-oriented.  They just want fewer of those rules to come from their government.  In essence, they believe in self-control and self-restraint; i.e. self-government.

It's like Thomas Jefferson's view of how the government should have control over courts, police, and defense, all of which are far from an anarchy point-of-view.  Heck, it might even roll over into the area of anarcho-capitalism.  At least, that's what I think would happen.

Another question: Do you believe libertarianism is based in a sense of ownership?

Hopefully, this will clear up some misunderstandings I have based on whatever minute amount of knowledge I have about libertarianism.

*      *      *      *      *      *

ZeaLitY, another mark of a mature nation (as far as health care, in this context) is ability to take responsibility for one's own health.  The real secret to better health care (and really, it's no secret at all) is to do your best to not get sick, injured, or diseased in the first place. We should do our part to free up the hospitals and doctor's offices for those who are far worse off than we healthy people are, not just pop in every time we get a cold, a fever, or even a little constipation.

KebreI, as far as philosophical views go, I'm more into Pragmatism than an Objectivism.

Lord J Esq

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Re: A Discussion on Libertarianism
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2009, 03:59:40 am »
I should have paid more attention to your wording.

Thank you! I wish everyone would do that, since my wording is usually both subtle and crucial to my point.

Another question: Do you believe libertarianism is based in a sense of ownership?

If you ask me--and you did!--ownership is the central tenet of libertarianism. Not being a libertarian, I haven't been privy to enough internal debate on the subject to say with great confidence that ownership outranks self-determination as the core of the ideology in the minds of its followers, but my knowledge of history points very clearly to the supreme preeminence of ownership in libertarian thinking.

That's no surprise. Ownership is one of the keys of our society--in my opinion the permissive ownership laws in this country are the number one reason for our national prosperity and stability. We have the libertarian mindset to thank for this, in the form of the old lowercase-R republicans who, after the Articles of Confederation failed, kept the republican dream alive in our new federal system through the Bill of Rights, some of the Federalist Papers, and other key founding documents, directives, and decisions. Republicanism (and, thus, libertarianism) faltered soon thereafter as our nation took on the mantle of a full-fledged democracy, but its heritage benefits us to this day.

Libertarianism would be mortally remiss to forget its focus on ownership. At the same time, our changing quality of life, our changing outlook on life, and the rise of digital spaces has forced us to reevaluate the very fundaments of ownership, further stressing libertarianism's relevance to modern politics.

I should add that ownership is by no means a uniquely libertarian idea. But no other major ideological group is more purist about it--except possibly the true communists, who hold the opposite purist view of ownership.

ZeaLitY

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Re: A Discussion on Libertarianism
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2009, 04:08:42 am »
Quote
The real secret to better health care (and really, it's no secret at all) is to do your best to not get sick, injured, or diseased in the first place.

I thought of this back when I assumed that obesity caused major expenditures and pressures on our health care system. However, I then found studies that showed parity between the costs associated with obese people (who die earlier from their complications) and normal people who have long lives (and suffer the effects of old age). Here's the study:

http://www.plosmedicine.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pmed.0050029

Nonetheless, I agree that exercise has many effects that improves quality of life, even for obese people; I don't have the links, but fitness science studies have demonstrated that fat people who exercise are very much healthier than skinny or slender people who don't. I just want to dismiss the idea that eliminating obesity will result in less health care costs, since a lot of people still believe it (even the CDC has a big page about obesity costs without the important subtext that those expenditures would still be made for resulting old age complications from longer life in the absence of obesity).

Radical_Dreamer

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Re: A Discussion on Libertarianism
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2009, 06:15:10 pm »
Part of why I no longer consider myself purely a libertarian, but rather someone with libertarian leanings is due to the issue of environmental stewardship. I find the reduction of ecological issues to economic abstractions a suicidally foolish mistake. You say that libertarianism could only work with a smaller population. I view the large present human population as being the largest environmental issue that we as a species presently face*. I agree with you though, getting there is a messy proposition, and unfortunately I cannot think of an answer that is both quickly attainable and ethically acceptable. If population begins decreasing (and in some nations, that is already happening) do you support a shrinking of government?

I think it is beneficial to have libertarians involved in the political process, at least as an opposition. You want government to be as big as it has to be. That's fair, and while I think many people disagree on how big that is, few people would disagree in principle. But shouldn't it also be as small as it can be? Are you at all concerned that as government grows, it eventually reaches a size where it is, as a practical matter, no longer accountable to the people?

*As you might imagine, I am quite dismayed that voluntary reduction in population by having fewer children isn't discussed as a part of long term environmental strategy. People in the media and politics talk about how many people the earth can sustain at a given consumption lifestyle, but they always seem to focus on reducing the environmental footprint of the lifestyle, and ignore the other half of the equation. I'd rather live in a world with one billion people living well than ten billion people living poorly.

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Re: A Discussion on Libertarianism
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2009, 06:38:14 pm »
*As you might imagine, I am quite dismayed that voluntary reduction in population by having fewer children isn't discussed as a part of long term environmental strategy.

You may be interested in this study: http://www.oregonlive.com/environment/index.ssf/2009/07/oregon_state_researchers_concl.html

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Re: A Discussion on Libertarianism
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2009, 04:01:23 am »
Part of why I no longer consider myself purely a libertarian…

I was secretly hoping to draw you out of the wings, given that you know more about libertarianism than I do, but I had no idea you don’t consider yourself a full-fledged libertarian anymore. I am surprised!

Part of why I no longer consider myself purely a libertarian, but rather someone with libertarian leanings is due to the issue of environmental stewardship. I find the reduction of ecological issues to economic abstractions a suicidally foolish mistake.

I definitely relate to this. Today we tend to see everything through the lens of business. Everything is assigned a dollar value; governments and societies and organizations are described in the language of business and are expected to behave as businesses. Profitability is held up in many quarters as the only real measure of value.

That’s just so much rubbish, and the importance of our world’s ecosystems is probably the starkest and most significant counterexample. To this very day it has been profitable to degrade the world in which we live, unsustainably. The costs are simply not registered by any contemporary economy, except perhaps incidentally in places like the third world where environmental degradation occurs on an extensive scale but the short-term wealth created as a result of it is exported almost entirely to other nations.

I don’t rule out that it is possible for a sufficiently sophisticated economy to accurately quantify the value of environmental health, but such an entity does not exist today, and has never existed in the past. The best we can do is approach history from the retrospective direction and consider the rise and fall of species as a result of environmental changes, and boggle at our modern folly.

You say that libertarianism could only work with a smaller population.

I may have misspoken, there, or perhaps you misunderstood me. (Or both!) Strictly speaking, I don’t hold that view. It is not the size of a society but the complexity of it which, in my view, diminishes the relevance of libertarianism.

Now that I think about it some more, however—and curiously—I don’t see how libertarianism could have worked in the more primitive societies either, due to the crudeness of their hierarchies and the much smaller domain of the folkways then as compared to today (where there are millions of subjects of interest). Perhaps pure libertarianism was simply never viable at all: A sophisticated society requires an intrusive government, and a primitive society requires also requires an intrusive government, leaving no room for pure libertarianism. Those societies whose governments were small, dysfunctional, or absent, have tended to break down into smaller, simpler societies; e.g., feudalism, provincialism, etc.; or to not evolve into more sophisticated societies in the first place; e.g., tribalism, pastoralism.

I suppose it remains theoretically possible that there could be a point in the future at which society becomes sophisticated enough that the human condition is better harnessed toward enlightenment, at which there may be room for more self-governance without a breakdown in high-level social institutions, but we’re sure not there yet: The most successful nations in the world today are those whose governments are vast, benevolent, and somewhat patronizing.

What do you think?

If population begins decreasing (and in some nations, that is already happening) do you support a shrinking of government?

It would certainly make sense for the absolute size of a government to shrink in proportion to the decline in a nation’s population, plus an extra factor of shrinkage to account for the fact that economic growth is not linear compared to population growth. An example of that extra shrinkage would be the fact that a country with one-tenth the population of ours could not have “one-tenth” of the aerospace program we do. This is because most industries have floors in their scale, determined in part by base population, below which the industry cannot exist. Government, too, would shrink more than linearly with a decline in population, down to the point where society is so primitive that there are no longer any industrial floors.

I think it is beneficial to have libertarians involved in the political process, at least as an opposition.

Agreed. Libertarians are a much more reasonable opposition than many of the alternatives. In fact, libertarians are my favorite opposition, because there is enough common ground between us that they can actually serve as checks rather than obstacles.

You want government to be as big as it has to be. That's fair, and while I think many people disagree on how big that is, few people would disagree in principle. But shouldn't it also be as small as it can be? Are you at all concerned that as government grows, it eventually reaches a size where it is, as a practical matter, no longer accountable to the people?

No, I’m not. I think we reached the point way back in the 1940s where a classical revolution—the most direct measure of “accountability”—ceased to be feasible. Since then, we have therefore been living at the “discretion” of our government. I think the last seventy years of our relative powerlessness has shown us that it is not the size of government that should alarm us, where our liberties are concerned, but the disposition of our government. I was genuinely distressed about the course our government took after September 11. I still worry that a terrorist attack even one order of magnitude more severe—or a slightly longer string of attacks comparable to those of 2001—would push this country into a hysteria that might result in a genuine fascist takeover. At that point, I would be very concerned about our government, if not outright afraid of it, no matter what size it happened to be.

There are people all across the political spectrum, I can just see them sometimes, in conversation or debate, who would become perfect little Hitlers if they ever got hold of real power. It would only take a few of those to spoil an entire government. To be blunt, Radical_Dreamer, I don’t think there’s an appreciable difference between a government “as large as it needs to be” and “as small as it can be” where modern tyranny is concerned.

*As you might imagine, I am quite dismayed that voluntary reduction in population by having fewer children isn't discussed as a part of long term environmental strategy.

Indeed. It’s because population control is even more of a political third rail than the entitlement programs are. The conservatives are no help whatsoever; they’re busy crapping their pants over the “illegals” taking over our country. The religious are almost no help; many if not most of them are still constrained by the dogma that they should have many children. Things are not much better on the left: Most of the people advocating for population control are also advocating that we systematically dismantle our quality of life as we know it, and I don’t trust them any more than I trust the conservatives.

Genuine voluntary population reduction, independent of any other policy, is a no-brainer to any freethinking political theorist with an awareness of our planetary environmental problems, but, as far as I can see, American society just doesn’t have a suitable cultural augur plate for the idea to take root. Very disappointing, and I share your dismay.

People in the media and politics talk about how many people the earth can sustain at a given consumption lifestyle, but they always seem to focus on reducing the environmental footprint of the lifestyle, and ignore the other half of the equation. I'd rather live in a world with one billion people living well than ten billion people living poorly.

I don’t know if I agree with your structural setup. I do agree that our current societies have overloaded the planet’s ecology, but, having seen the power of population increases in terms of scaling up our industrial capabilities, I would expect that, in order to advance into the Space Age, we’ll need a much larger population. The problem, then, is what to do with all those people in order to build our glorious space colonies and lunar cities in the first place.

To that end, I suspect—although I admit that my thinking here is as wishful as it is educated—that technological advances will enable us to increase our efficiencies, decrease environmental degradation, all while supporting a slowly increasing global population that is gradually achieving a minimum material quality of life for everyone—in which case I would have a harder time opposing a constant or increasing population. If I am mistaken, then of course the population will have to come down, and we’ll either do it under our own control, or we won’t.

As for my personal opinion on the direction of the world’s population, what I would ultimately like to see is the Earth turned into a nature preserve, with a remaining human population in the tens or hundreds of millions. The rest of us will be living offworld, which we will ultimately prove capable of doing as technology and psychology advance. Thus, it makes more sense in the very long run for me to talk about two population statistics: the Terran human population, and the total human population. I’d like to see the former stay small and the latter scale up as we see fit.

In the shorter term, I want to see environmental mitigation precede any additional population growth, which, in practical terms, will require not only technological advances but some kind of population cap policy—preferably a voluntary one, incentivized with credits and fees.

However, the issue isn’t as simple as “population growth.” It’s more about “population growth in the developing world.” What do we do about that? Well, as an imperialist, you can imagine that my policy would be hands-on. What about yours?

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Re: A Discussion on Libertarianism
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2009, 06:07:11 am »
I may have misspoken, there, or perhaps you misunderstood me. (Or both!) Strictly speaking, I don’t hold that view. It is not the size of a society but the complexity of it which, in my view, diminishes the relevance of libertarianism.

Now that I think about it some more, however—and curiously—I don’t see how libertarianism could have worked in the more primitive societies either, due to the crudeness of their hierarchies and the much smaller domain of the folkways then as compared to today (where there are millions of subjects of interest). Perhaps pure libertarianism was simply never viable at all: A sophisticated society requires an intrusive government, and a primitive society requires also requires an intrusive government, leaving no room for pure libertarianism. Those societies whose governments were small, dysfunctional, or absent, have tended to break down into smaller, simpler societies; e.g., feudalism, provincialism, etc.; or to not evolve into more sophisticated societies in the first place; e.g., tribalism, pastoralism.

I suppose it remains theoretically possible that there could be a point in the future at which society becomes sophisticated enough that the human condition is better harnessed toward enlightenment, at which there may be room for more self-governance without a breakdown in high-level social institutions, but we’re sure not there yet: The most successful nations in the world today are those whose governments are vast, benevolent, and somewhat patronizing.

What do you think?

In an earlier post you mention that you'd envisioned a society populated by people beyond the present bell curve. When I try to picture an ideal world, I cannot help but to populate it by ideal (or at least, an attempt at ideal) people. Government is necessary because people aren't ideal. You acknowledge that different people need different laws. Imagine a world populated exclusively with people who would need no laws. Why would such people need a government?

I don't presently consider myself a full-fledged libertarian, but I suppose you could say that I still wish that I could be an anarchist.

It would certainly make sense for the absolute size of a government to shrink in proportion to the decline in a nation’s population, plus an extra factor of shrinkage to account for the fact that economic growth is not linear compared to population growth. An example of that extra shrinkage would be the fact that a country with one-tenth the population of ours could not have “one-tenth” of the aerospace program we do. This is because most industries have floors in their scale, determined in part by base population, below which the industry cannot exist. Government, too, would shrink more than linearly with a decline in population, down to the point where society is so primitive that there are no longer any industrial floors.

It is my hope that eventually mechanization will advance greatly, and in so doing, allow mankind to accomplish greater feats with fewer people and less environmental impact. This would reduce the floors for various industries AND raise their roofs. I realize that this gets back to an early issue, the unfortunate economic state of having a "surplus" population. Again, I have no easy answers on that one. It might have to get worse before it gets better.

No, I’m not. I think we reached the point way back in the 1940s where a classical revolution—the most direct measure of “accountability”—ceased to be feasible. Since then, we have therefore been living at the “discretion” of our government. I think the last seventy years of our relative powerlessness has shown us that it is not the size of government that should alarm us, where our liberties are concerned, but the disposition of our government. I was genuinely distressed about the course our government took after September 11. I still worry that a terrorist attack even one order of magnitude more severe—or a slightly longer string of attacks comparable to those of 2001—would push this country into a hysteria that might result in a genuine fascist takeover. At that point, I would be very concerned about our government, if not outright afraid of it, no matter what size it happened to be.

There are people all across the political spectrum, I can just see them sometimes, in conversation or debate, who would become perfect little Hitlers if they ever got hold of real power. It would only take a few of those to spoil an entire government. To be blunt, Radical_Dreamer, I don’t think there’s an appreciable difference between a government “as large as it needs to be” and “as small as it can be” where modern tyranny is concerned.

If we are at the mercy of the disposition of the government, it is already a tyranny. The question is whether it is relatively benign at any given moment. Do you think it is feasible to have an accountable government at the scale of modern day America?

I don’t know if I agree with your structural setup. I do agree that our current societies have overloaded the planet’s ecology, but, having seen the power of population increases in terms of scaling up our industrial capabilities, I would expect that, in order to advance into the Space Age, we’ll need a much larger population. The problem, then, is what to do with all those people in order to build our glorious space colonies and lunar cities in the first place.

To that end, I suspect—although I admit that my thinking here is as wishful as it is educated—that technological advances will enable us to increase our efficiencies, decrease environmental degradation, all while supporting a slowly increasing global population that is gradually achieving a minimum material quality of life for everyone—in which case I would have a harder time opposing a constant or increasing population. If I am mistaken, then of course the population will have to come down, and we’ll either do it under our own control, or we won’t.

As for my personal opinion on the direction of the world’s population, what I would ultimately like to see is the Earth turned into a nature preserve, with a remaining human population in the tens or hundreds of millions. The rest of us will be living offworld, which we will ultimately prove capable of doing as technology and psychology advance. Thus, it makes more sense in the very long run for me to talk about two population statistics: the Terran human population, and the total human population. I’d like to see the former stay small and the latter scale up as we see fit.

In the shorter term, I want to see environmental mitigation precede any additional population growth, which, in practical terms, will require not only technological advances but some kind of population cap policy—preferably a voluntary one, incentivized with credits and fees.

However, the issue isn’t as simple as “population growth.” It’s more about “population growth in the developing world.” What do we do about that? Well, as an imperialist, you can imagine that my policy would be hands-on. What about yours?

Certainly if there are multiple planets harboring humans, as long as each has a sustainable population, the total population of humanity is not a concern. But we aren't near that point yet. Even if we can raise the "floor" of human quality of life while reducing the per individual ecological footprint, a reduction in population will still be hugely beneficial to everyone. Until such time as a larger population is needed for planetary colonization, reducing our population will compound the environmental gains of technology.

The issue of developed versus developing population growth is interesting. On the one hand, population growth in the developed world is mainly driven (or at least, it is my present understanding) by immigration. On the other hand, the average carbon footprint of a developed world citizen is vastly greater than that of a developing world citizen. Frankly though, I don't think any nation, developed or otherwise, should be experiencing population growth.

As for practical solutions, I'm afraid the best I can think of at the moment is the slow process of better education, and making family planning more available, as well as promoting gender equality. Noble goals in of themselves, but generally slowly achieved.

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Re: A Discussion on Libertarianism
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2009, 11:02:46 am »
In an earlier post you mention that you'd envisioned a society populated by people beyond the present bell curve.

Not quite. I'd mentioned that I'm at the high end of the bell curve, and that in the past I had mistakenly thought more highly of others. We're a species with a lot of potential but a lot of dead weight, too.

When I try to picture an ideal world, I cannot help but to populate it by ideal (or at least, an attempt at ideal) people. Government is necessary because people aren't ideal. You acknowledge that different people need different laws. Imagine a world populated exclusively with people who would need no laws. Why would such people need a government?

Given an ideal population, any responsive form of government would work perfectly, including but certainly not limited to libertarianism. Such is the utility of talking about the ideal case.

I don't presently consider myself a full-fledged libertarian, but I suppose you could say that I still wish that I could be an anarchist.

I sympathize perhaps more than you realize, but I think we differ at the philosophical level on the nature of society.

It might have to get worse before it gets better.

Probably. What I foresee happening in the gradual case is that the world will slowly continue its development, and other nations will undergo their own version of the socioeconomic arc that today's developed nations underwent. Eventually there will be hemp festivals in Bangladesh, and, if there's still an Earth left at that point, we'll all go green completely. And we'll all be paying a shitload of money for our lattes.

In the positive catastrophic case, some political confluence of personalities will cobble together and enforce environmental sustainability laws on most of the world. (In the negative catastrophic case, war will beginning and all our base will belong to them.)

If we are at the mercy of the disposition of the government, it is already a tyranny. The question is whether it is relatively benign at any given moment. Do you think it is feasible to have an accountable government at the scale of modern day America?

No, not by your definition of "accountability." Yes, by mine, and I would say that our current government is relatively accountable. (I'd give it a B-minus.) I think we can both agree that it wouldn't be realistic for us to overthrow the government using force, absent some preexistent set of events. What we can do is constrain them politically. There is a great deal that our politicians do or do not do because of public opinion and lobbying efforts. One of the reasons that the Bush administration was so scary is that they didn't give a damn about public opinion; they did almost whatever they wanted to do, short of overthrowing the government from the inside.

Now, don't take this to mean that I want our politicians to be even wishy-washier than they already are. I happen to admire a strong will. To improve accountability from its present state, what I would want is for the lobbying process to be completely reformed--probably at the Constitutional level--and for worthier lobbying groups to finally start outflanking the nasty ones. The former probably isn't feasible short of some disaster in America, and its implausibility I think is a sign of the rigidification of our nation; the "hardening of America's arteries," as it were. The latter isn't a government issue, and requires better organization and funding in those areas where I want society to make progress. These reforms would allow politicians to stand firm more often, but to give way to nobler interests when they do have a change of mind.

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Re: A Discussion on Libertarianism
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2009, 07:24:25 am »
I am very much opposed to libertarianism. I guess some people could find the principle nice if they think the government's too intrusive, but in reality, I view libertarianism as a worse version of republicans.

I used to be a communist and now I am more leaning towards socialism. I think the bigger the government the better... just as long as freedom and liberty and all that jazz are still respected. It is bullshit that someone said the more government, the likelier the corruption. What about all the European countries that are basically socialist now?

It will never happen with America or other major western countries, however I really would like to live in Denmark or a place like it where a huge chunk of my salary is taken by the government. Those countries really seem to know what to do with all the money.

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Re: A Discussion on Libertarianism
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2009, 10:47:05 am »
Quote from: ZaichiArky
What about all the European countries that are basically socialist now?

A lot of those countries are fast pedaling back to the right. Socialism has not done any favors for most of their economies. I think Switzerland's the only one who's been able to make a net gain by instituting socialism, and that's because it didn't go off the deep end with it like most of the other countries did.