Author Topic: May Almighty God Bless Madonna  (Read 1462 times)

FaustWolf

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May Almighty God Bless Madonna
« on: August 27, 2009, 09:45:13 pm »
Hey, I knew a topic title like that would get ZeaLitY's attention, okay? :franky

Anyway, what I really wanted to say was, "Fuck Racism and Ethnocentrism." Madonna just got freakin' booed in Romania for defending the oft-downtrodden Roma people, also known pejoritavely as Gypsies.

Madonna is a heroine for having the guts to use her fame to bring attention to a social issue, and I hope she doesn't stop.

The Roma are beautiful people and should be valued. I mean, just look at them. For all the attention that racism gets in the United States, we need to be mindful that it's still a worldwide phenomenon.

Uh, yeah. So anyway, guess everyone can take this topic wherever they like, actually; whether it be anti-religious statements (or pro-religion) statements Madonna has made over the years, or socially heroic acts of other celebrities that you find inspiring.

ZaichikArky

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Re: May Almighty God Bless Madonna
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2009, 10:44:25 pm »
Good for her. I love Madonna... except for her refusal to sing Like a Virgin for her fans anymore.

Hey, do all of you remember when Natalie from the Dixie Chicks talked trash about President Bush while touring in England? I watched the documentary on that, boy oh boy did the ladies get a TON of shit for that. I remember a segment with Senator McCain (honestly one of my favorite Republicans) who spoke out against the radio stations censoring their music.

Well Madonna won't get any shit for it in the US, but good for her for speaking on behalf of the Gypsies. More stars need to take political actions. These days they often just offhand say something and then their agent thinks it's bad PR and they end up apologizing for it. I hope she doesn't apologize for offending the Romanians.

mav

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Re: May Almighty God Bless Madonna
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2009, 10:52:06 pm »
Fuck, man. I can't say I'm surprised: the Roma are the current scapegoats for the economic turmoil; they're ridiculed, attacked, murdered, and laid for dead all the time. Well, I know for a fact that's how the Roma are often treated in Hungary, at least. Though Madonna's actions are generally amicable (this time) I'm not surprised that there was an outcry. A terrible (but possibly valid comparison) would be like some European musician coming to some southern state in the United States and showing their support for illegal immigrants. Mind you, this isn't the same, but the outcry is comparable.


ZeaLitY

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Re: May Almighty God Bless Madonna
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2009, 12:28:43 am »
I'm all for reducing discrimination and prejudice based on race alone, but there are several deep, cultural issues with the roma that manifest as civil and criminal problems proximate to their settlements. If anything, recognizing this can allow one to understand why they're so hated in areas like liberal Europe where many black, white, and other don't even think of looking at each other differently. Some anecdotes popped up in this thread:

http://www.reddit.com/r/WTF/comments/9eq9i/madonna_booed_in_bucharest_for_defending_gypsies/

"They cause problems and disrupt civilization" could be said about any ethnic group, yeah, but there are some distinctions. I wanted to see for myself in Bratislava on my European trip in May, and the only gypsy I saw was scouting people for pickpocketing. I'm not endorsing some of the incredibly brutal policies that European governments have used to suppress the gypsies, but there is a problem that needs to be recognized and dealt with.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 12:31:02 am by ZeaLitY »

Lord J Esq

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Re: May Almighty God Bless Madonna
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2009, 12:40:09 am »
"Dealt with"? What would you suggest?

ZeaLitY

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Re: May Almighty God Bless Madonna
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2009, 12:46:03 am »
I'm not sure, since I've never given this kind of thing thought. The first simple step is law enforcement. The second...I don't know. From everything I've read, their cultural traditions are passed down with intensity and exactitude. It'd be hard to break those without breaking up family units.

Temporal Knight

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Re: May Almighty God Bless Madonna
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2009, 12:52:02 am »
I am completely against discrimination and racism, however I agree with Zeality on this.

There are many factors that need enforcing, but an issue that is implied on us here is the family units. Breaking them up, and keeping them together, provides downfalls in an enforcement plan. However, where there is a will, there is a way.

FaustWolf

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Re: May Almighty God Bless Madonna
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2009, 01:20:18 am »
Yeah, I was wondering what you'd seen over there ZeaLitY. I didn't even realize that the stigma toward Roma people carried on like this after World War II; I guess I had this romantic notion that they just kind of went about their way in peace like Amish people.

Nor did I realize that the stigma against Roma is so heavily based on a preconception of proneness to theft and blackmail until I'd started looking into this just now (thanks for the links everyone). But how different is this preconception from the notions white Americans used to regard their black peers with? Oh, black man's driving a nice car -- he must have stolen it!! Or how about the preconceptions regarding Native Americans? Those feather-wearing drunkards. And look, they're screwing the government with all those benefits! I'm just now learning about this issue, but I suspect there's a negative economic feedback loop at play: the dominant culture ghetto-izes the minority, and the minority starts getting into crime, drugs, and poor educational attainment; and then the majority ghetto-izes them some more, pointing to anecdotal justifications.

I'm really appalled at the strength of Antiziganism (whoa, say it three times fast!) in some places:
Quote from: Wiki on Antiziganism
In July 2008, a high court in Italy ruled that antiziganism is an acceptable practice "on the grounds that [the Roma people] are thieves."[22] With the ruling, the judges overthrew the conviction of defendants who had publicly demanded the expulsion of Roma from Verona in 2001. One of those freed was Flavio Tosi, Verona's mayor and an official of the anti-immigrant Lega Nord.[22] The decision came during a "nationwide clampdown" on Roma by Italian prime minister Silvio Berlusconi. The previous week, Berlusconi's interior minister Roberto Maroni declared that all Roma in Italy, including children, would be fingerprinted.[22]
Holy shit! I mean, holy shit! I'm really taken aback by this. I had no idea it was this bad. You just can't single out a group of people for negative discrimination like that.

Lord J Esq

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Re: May Almighty God Bless Madonna
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2009, 01:31:23 am »
I suspect there's a negative economic feedback loop at play: the dominant culture ghetto-izes the minority, and the minority starts getting into crime, drugs, and poor educational attainment; and then the majority ghetto-izes them some more, pointing to anecdotal justifications.

You have just summed up a very long list of the world's problems. It is the study of some people's lifetimes just to try and get to the bottom of this purely in terms of understanding the issue, to say nothing of trying to devise a rational solution for it.

Of course, this makes a lot more sense when you consider the only plausible alternative: all these other-colored people are inherently inferior when it comes to being "civilized," whatever that means.

Uboa

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Re: May Almighty God Bless Madonna
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2009, 01:37:40 am »
Well, this is an interesting subject for me in part because it's suspected that my granddad was half Romani.  They apparently found his dad on a doorstep (edit: as an infant) in the old country, and from what I've heard he looked like a full-blooded gypsy.  All of my granddad's siblings that I've met look distinctly Romani.

Because my granddad never knew anything firsthand about Romani culture, I know equally little about it.  All I know is that my granddad was a very resourceful and resilient man who did a hell of a lot of work to support his family.  If I take what I felt to be his strong and admirable characteristics and gave them to a person who has been through as much hell as, from what I've read so far, the Romani have in most places, then I imagine that the person would have the guts to do whatever it took to get by.  If that would mean becoming a professional thief or beggar to the extent of Z's and the linked commenter's anecdote, then I imagine they'd do a hell of a job of it.

With regard to the actual culture, from the Wikipedia article that FW posted it does sound a tad strange.  But, think about the cultures of the African slaves we brought to the US not too long ago.  Voodoo, superstitions, colorful clothing and intricate cultural dances were all a part of their culture.  If we hadn't forcefully assimilated them to the extent that we had, I speculate they might still harbor themselves and their culture away from mainstream American society today, especially if they were still so blatantly ostracized.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 01:45:41 am by Uboa »

FaustWolf

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Re: May Almighty God Bless Madonna
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2009, 01:58:30 am »
Flowing from what Uboa observed about clashing social and cultural norms, I'm very interested in the role a clash of economic systems plays in situations like this, or at least the hypothetical resolutions to these causal loops. African Americans and Jewish people, as social groups, don't seem to have a cultural aversion to capitalism, and I'd argue that they've gained social acceptance partly through their participation in a free market society: once they've scraped together some wealth, more products are marketed to them, people of their cultural group get into movies and commercials, and away you go. I think we've been seeing this with homosexuals since the 1990s. I'm hugely oversimplifying one aspect of what could probably be termed "cultural integration" of course, but I'm wondering if this economic participation theory is at least one factor at play, and how important it is.

Of the groups I'm more familiar with, I'd have to guess (albeit blindly) that Native Americans could be compared to the Roma, since both groups are typically viewed as living in inward-looking, non-integrative communities. There's a compulsion on the part of a white economist to say, "Hey Indian man, get off your reservation and get a job!" and yet something keeps significant tracts of Native Americans in reservations (...nevermind the fact that the Wise White Man forcibly stuffed them in there to begin with).

Likewise, the Roma seem to be locked into ghetto-like communities similarly lacking in opportunity. There's also a nomadic streak within their culture that would seem non-conducive to participation in capitalism (your workplace doesn't typically move with you unless you have a job you can perform over the Internet)...but nevermind the fact that majority societies keep rejecting them, forcing them to move in the first place.

I'm kind of rambling here, but just trying to wrap my mind around the Roma situation through analogy to something a bit more familiar to a typical American. Identifying all the underlying issues is the first step toward resolving them.

Truthordeal

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Re: May Almighty God Bless Madonna
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2009, 12:01:59 pm »
You're not going to find a proper analogy for the Roma situation as compared to the various race discriminations in the United States. Racism, though universal, is very distinctive in how its practiced.

You might could compare the "ghetto-ization" of both the Roma and the black community, but there are still several differences that make them two very distinct processes. The ghetto-ization of blacks was predominantly based around "white flight" than forcing them into ghettos.

As for the Madonna situation, well, this tends to happen. It happened to Sinead O'Connor who decided to rip the Pope(literally) on national television, and with the Dixie Chicks who decided to take a ride on their moral high horse over in Europe. Except the difference is that Madonna's position should be universally laudable in the United States, as opposed to being divided down the same ideological lines.

mav

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Re: May Almighty God Bless Madonna
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2009, 12:48:07 pm »
I suspect there's a negative economic feedback loop at play: the dominant culture ghetto-izes the minority, and the minority starts getting into crime, drugs, and poor educational attainment; and then the majority ghetto-izes them some more, pointing to anecdotal justifications.
It's a worldwide phenomena; all it comes down to is how the majority reacts to the minorities. Because the Roma are "ghetto-ized" (looks like we've found a new buzzword) some Roma resort to criminal activities. Because of their theft, their housing, and their lifestyles, they're looked at as second-class citizens and mooches, so the majority's view becomes one of discontent, that discontent turns into xenophobia, and that xenophobia can turn into blatant violence. It's a terrible cycle, since it's become so common to scoff at the Roma, no one will step up and help them; not the governments, not citizens, virtually no one. But if and when someone does (like Madonna) they're vilified. 

ZeaLitY

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Re: May Almighty God Bless Madonna
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2009, 03:43:54 pm »
Quote
Because the Roma are "ghetto-ized" (looks like we've found a new buzzword) some Roma resort to criminal activities.

Again, I'd like to stress that this is a special case because the Roma have been living a nomadic lifestyle for centuries. They're sort of like the nomadic Irish traveler people, who made their living going from place to place providing basic services, like tin-smithing. Attempting to settle the Roma in permanent establishments is something contrary to their culture, and their establishments also tend to become extremely dirty because they're not culturally programmed to care for establishments, nor are they practically skliled in doing so. This is why it's a serious cultural problem (in addition to discrimination) at work. Our society is one of ownership and settlement, and that's not what's traditionally been done, here. For an illustrative comparison, the Jews were also persecuted and discriminated against for centuries, often pogrommed out of European towns and villages during the Medieval ages. But they'd always find a new place to settle and become part of communities. They weren't nomadic by culture.