What gives the Mystics magic?

[Mr Bekkler]

Okay, so, what other evidence there is that implies it is the same?

You can't use that enyclopedia entry since CTDS never refers to the place as 'a Reptite's Dimension', to even think it's implied it's the same place. The game refers it as the 'Lost Sanctum'.

The reptites aren't evidence either, since as we know there are an unknown number of dimensions, it's highly likely they may exist in many of them, so their existance alone doesn't make it a 'reptite's dimension'.

And, if the evolution to Dragonians was natural, then there can't be a Gaia's Navel like sceneraio (isolation from the rest of the world caused them to not change like the rest) for these Reptites.

As for time differneces, yes, there is a chance is not parallel, yet there are many factor that still imply a large gap of years. From turning the Saintstone to Waystone, the ladder that breaks in Mount Emerald, the fact they forgot of the Ancient Tower with the statues, etc.

Yeah, this got off-topic, but that is to be expected. You claim it is the same, so I ask how, but that first evidence you brought isn't enough since it can be denied with the above.

Okay. That's more like it.

The Dragonian World and the Lost Sanctum may not necessarily be the same thing. The "several (more than two) dimensions" is a good enough cause to allow some doubt there.

The argument was whether the Dragonian Dimension and the Reptite Dimension were the same. The Dragonians came from the Reptites.

Everything settled?

Now, where did Mystics get their Magic?

[Acacia Sgt]

This is hopeless.

The argument was whether the Dragonian Dimension and the Reptite Dimension were the same. The Dragonians came from the Reptites.
Everything settled?

This isn't enough. The reptites alone aren't evidence. This doesn't prove it can't be yet another dimension in which reptites exist. Just because they will turn to Dragonians one day it doesn't mean it's the same dimension we are told about in Cross.

But I'll stop now, since this is pointless for this thread.

[ZealKnight]

OH! Good point, although irrelevant. I don't clearly understand why we are talking about Dragonians, but it is true that they evolve from Reptites. ALSO it is true that the Soul Sanctum may not be the Reptite dimension. But we assuming that Kato wanted to link Cross and Trigger even more through the DS remake. Much like the Dalton thing we assume that the Soul Sanctum is the Reptite dimension for the reason: it was mentioned in Cross. It still could be something else, but let us remember that this is irrelevant to the Mystics. Reptites can't evolve into them in both dimensions unless the two dimensions have some sort of similarity. What everyone is trying to give for an answer is that Mystics are linked to Lavos. But they can exist in both dimensions, which brings us to another question: Does Lavos fall in the Reptite dimension?

This is what I believe the Compendium currently believes:

Humans WILL ALWAYS kill the Reptites if Lavos comes to the planet.
Humans WILL ALWAYS be killed by Reptites if Lavos does not come to the planet.
The reason being that the planet sides against Lavos, bringing what it thinks is the best civilization to this dimension.

1. Assuming that the Soul Sanctum is the Reptite dimension, then Mystics do not rely on humans to exist. Therefore Lavos is not necessary to their creation. And they are still an unknown creature whose magic is most likely gained from the Sun.

2. The Soul Sanctum being a Different dimension than the reptite dimension, One in which Lavos falls and the humans still die (highly unlikely since the global weather changes would kill the reptites) and the frozen flame somehow makes the Mystics.

3. They are aliens(although not the smartest or most involved with their original community) that land on the planet no matter what, and just for clarification highly unlikely that they be from the Lavos world.

I choose answer one. Perhaps they are a byproduct of magic, but not the Frozen Flame's magic. Maybe the Planet creates them, or they might actually be demons born from the dead. (you know like the homunculi in FMA anime)

[Bigvinu]

Humans WILL ALWAYS kill the Reptites if Lavos comes to the planet.
Humans WILL ALWAYS be killed by Reptites if Lavos does not come to the planet.
The reason being that the planet sides against Lavos, bringing what it thinks is the best civilization to this dimension.

So the planet sides with the humans because it knows they can kill Lavos? Usign that argument, the planet could have sided with the Mystics because they probably had the second best chance (behind Chrono and Co.) of killing Lavos at Magus's lair.

[Truthordeal]

The problem with that Vinu, is that in the Lavos Timeline, Lavos kills Magus when he's summoned in 600 AD.

[Acacia Sgt]

And so, it decided not to act, yet. This probably means it already had in mind in using the 1000 AD trio once it decided to act.

[Xenterex]

For those that don't give a damn about my previously suggested idea, then skip past the dotted line.

I don't know what you're getting at here.

That's disappointing since you had a consideration for evolution in your explanation.  When I mentioned that their might be an ancestor base created in Zeal as a weapon, i used quotes to indicate a tag; that I was calling these creatures mystics because they could later evolve into mystics over the thousand of years.  If zeal is the 'now' (again a form of marking) then these monsters don't need sentience in Zeal for them to become sentient hundreds or thousands of years latter and then be the mystics you acknowledge.  Just because there aren't mystics directly in Zeal doesn't exclude that there could've been the root of "mystics" there.  Especially since you pointed out that possibility of magical waste stimulating their evolution.  Waste, by the way, that also doesn't have direct evidence of existence from "in game Zeal". (emphasis removed)

Okay, Mr. All-Knowing. There are no sentient monsters SEEN IN GAME IN ZEAL. Pardon the fact that I assume everyone knows what I'm talking about is based entirely on in-game evidence.

Fact? Evidence?

maybe was a technology created by zeal. 

Maybe, emphasis added.  That's an expression of uncertainty.  Speculation.  Call it what you will, the reality is that you are making an inference based on PATTERNS observable in game.  And that's the same as I'm doing. 

i really think it's not that complicated or hidden

Wow, and I'm all knowing?  A thousand apologies for trying to explain the patterns I've observed through the game's story telling without the fallacious notion of presumption.   

Possible there is a connection and you are almost correct, but Masa and Mune were created from dreams as well as dreamstone. If they share an anti-Mystic property, it's possible the Mystics or the Frozen Flame have connections with nightmares. I'm thinking equal but opposite forces, key word being opposite.

And more ego writing here?  Wow, no wonder your attitude picked up; I must've hit a sensitive spot.  A sincere apologies this time.  Especially since you seem to be misreading part of my idea there.  Or rather I didn't explain it very clearly.  I'm fully aware that Masa and Mune are dream creatures.  And the connection you're making to 'nightmares' is derived from Queen Zeal's dialogue.  However, I brought them up and called them "non-Zealean entities" to point back to your comment of  "There were no sentient monsters IN Zeal"  I also could've pointed out the Nu's were in Zeal as well.  And Nu were sentient millennia before Zeal.  However, I stuck with just Masa and Mune because (formed as a sword,) iirc, it has an anti-mystic property as a weapon, which was to add further support to my idea that Zeal had some form of magically vulnerable creature(s) in its possession that would evolve (either naturally or artificially) into mystics.

-------------------------------------------------------

I would say the mystics share a link to Lavos.  Magus, their leader and model of the powers available to the mystics (to a certain extent at least) is ineffective against Lavos and had his considerable powers drained.  Why?  Because Lavos was simple taking back what was its own.  I think its been suggested, or at least hinted at in other threads, that the mystics could just be results of Lavos' tampering with the genetic pool available on this planet.  After all, it is collecting DNA, and manipulating genes and species, especially in a manner to incite war and conflict generations down the line, is a very good way to see which traits are more effective than others.  In that case, Magus' collection of TECH points isn't just an in-game mechanic, but his weening away from Lavos' and adapting to manipulating matter through another means.  Hmm, or at least not using the Lavos' factor to amplify his powers.  I remember a dialogue from Zeal that an NPC notices that the player characters exhibit an aura similar to the Chosen Ones, but its weaker by comparison.  When Zeal falls, and the connection to Lavos broken, the human magic power might not be completely gone, just made weaker.  But it fades over generations of time because the bias on Zeal is gone (unison with the land based dwellers) and isn't used because of the bad association it would have with the fall of Zeal.  The traits then aren't gone, just the knowledge to tap into it is forgotten.

[Thought]

@Thought: The term used by Spekkio in the section you've bolded is people, though, not humans, and you can have personhood without belonging to a particular species. The Mystics (IMHO) are not humans, but I would say they were definitely people. (Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure that Japanese uses the same word--ningen--for both concepts, making it difficult to tell what was really meant.)

It is true that ‘people’ doesn't necessarily mean humans, but the two generally are synonymous. Particularly in this context, in which "people" are identified as Zealeans. Now I suppose we could claim that not all Zealeans were humans, but that does trample on the Enlightened One/Earthbound dichotomy that exists pre-Ocean Palace incident. Furthermore, magical ability as it usually exists in the keystone dimension is established by the compendium as the evolutionary trait that contact with Lavos produced in humans, through CC. Now, given that humans are identified as being corrupted by Lavos, that corruption seemingly taking the form of Magic, and a particular group of magic users are singled out by Spekkio, it seems reasonable to suppose that these magic users are in turn corrupted by Lavos, and in turn humans.

But yes, this isn't definite link between normal humans and mystics. At best it is a tenuous connection.

There were no sentient monsters IN Zeal (or any of Antiquity). None of them could speak, thus, they were not Mystics.

Poppycock. The lack of specific instances of speech does not preclude the possibility of speech. Consider all the people you pass every day who never say a word to you. Should you thus assume that they cannot speak, simply because you haven't heard them?

It is interesting that these Mystic-like creatures are only found on Mt. Woe, a notably Zealean construct. Like the rest of Zeal, this mountain is floating, indicating direct Enlightened One activities. Indeed, depending on when one believes that Zeal was raised, it may even imply a direct connection to Lavos energy.

This is what I believe the Compendium currently believes:

Humans WILL ALWAYS kill the Reptites if Lavos comes to the planet.
Humans WILL ALWAYS be killed by Reptites if Lavos does not come to the planet.

Meh. More along the lines of:

Humans WILL ALWAYS become the dominant species if Lavos falls.
Reptites WILL ALWAYS become the dominant species if Lavos does not fall.

It is implied that Humans do not kill the Reptites in the keystone dimension. Likewise, there is no evidence that the humans in the Dragonian dimension were eradicated. The presence of Demi-humans in El-Nido-only implies that there is a relationship between them and the Dragonian dimension (or Chronopolis). Thus, Demi-humans could be (though this is primarily but not entirely a baseless conjecture) humans that evolved in the Dragonian dimension.

So the planet sides with...

That is ascribing far too active of a role to the planet/entity. The full extent of the planet's intent in CT that we are informed of is that it wanted to share its memories with someone before it died. There is no indication that the planet actively wanted Crono & Co to change history. Indeed, such a perception could diminish our heroes to lowly pawns in a game between the planet and the parasite.

[alfadorredux]

It is true that ‘people’ doesn't necessarily mean humans, but the two generally are synonymous. Particularly in this context, in which "people" are identified as Zealeans.

The terms "people" and "humans" give the false appearance of being synonymous in everyday discourse because there aren't any nonhuman creatures in the real world who are considered intelligent enough by the majority of humans to be "people". The context of the word in your quote is ambiguous at best--the first version of the quote does seem to be identifying the inhabitants of Zeal with "people", but also mentions "wizards", making the whole text verge on the nonsensical (the Enlightened weren't "wizards"? Then who does the term apply to?), and the second version contains nothing that I would consider such an identification.

So, um, not evidence for your thesis, IMNSHO.

[Truthordeal]

Still though, to expand on the Magus theory a little bit, given that the beasts on Mt. Woe couldn't use magic and had no way to evolve into using magic(no Frozen Flame or Sun Stone at that time) then it is possible that Magus unlocked their potential to use magic the same way Spekkio did for the Crono gang.

The idea that makes the most sense to me at the moment is that the Mystics evolved from the creatures on Mt. Woe because you never saw a Mystic or beast in Zeal in-game. Unless you count the Nu, but that's a different matter altogether. When he was teleported to the year 5XX, he survived through his use of magic against Ozzie and the Mystics, then united them, and gave them magic to help in the war against Guardia.

[Thought]

The terms "people" and "humans" give the false appearance of being synonymous in everyday discourse because there aren't any nonhuman creatures in the real world who are considered intelligent enough by the majority of humans to be "people".

True, but when a non-standard use is implemented, one needs to specify such.

The first version of the quoted text is the original NA translation. Thus "wizard" is what is generally called a "Woolseyism;" that is, a misleading translation present in the original NA release but subsequently corrected. The second translation is from the Re-Translation project. If I recall correctly, CTDS also contains wording to the effect of the second translation (replacing demon with Fiend, of course), but we don’t have a CTDS script up anywhere yet, so I can’t confirm this.

As for why you see nothing in the second translation that would indicate such a connection, that is curious since other than "demon/wizard," they say essentially the same thing. But perhaps the formatting is a bit hard to follow? Here's just the retranslation, in case:

Long before you guys were born...
There was a kingdom that prospered by magic.
Everyone in that world used magic.

But that country grew addicted to magical power
and was destroyed...
After that, people became unable to use magic.
Except for the Demons anyway.

Magic is also linked to a hereditary trait by other comments of Spekkio's:

This hugeass doll......   
You, you're not a living thing.   
You've got a strong heart too, but since you're   
not descended from the ancient magic   
peoples, magic's a no-go.

It is generally very odd to have a defining hereditary trait shared across species lines.

But yes, to note for the third time now, this is not definite evidence. It reasonably implies a connection, but does not prove one.

The idea that makes the most sense to me at the moment is that the Mystics evolved from the creatures on Mt. Woe because you never saw a Mystic or beast in Zeal in-game.

What about the Ocean Palace? The Barghests and Jinns do bare notable resemblance to the Sorcerer's in Magus' layer. Of course, there is no good line that separates mystics from monsters, and the game doesn't seem to have been too ridged about only using related sprite sheets for related foes, so this very likely doesn’t mean anything.

[ZealKnight]

Mt. Woe is a construct of Zeal? That's not very true. Perhaps it was only lifted from the ground by Zeal. It would make more sense that monsters from Pre-History all gathered on one mountain (do to climate changes) then evolved into creatures with magic and then eventually gained intelligence. The Beasts may be an example of un-evolved monsters. Being savages it would be the best place to keep things protected. Plus the climate changes don't necessarily cause the evolution into these pre-mystics, so by that logic they could just evolve into Mystics in any dimension as long as they were being hunted by the dominate species. (Humans or Reptites) The problem still arises where does their magic come from? Is it like Lavos? Or was it a mutation caused by magic used on monsters that eventually constant reproduction of these mutated genes cause the evolution of magic?

[Truthordeal]

Magic isn't something that's inherited though. Magic was given to humankind by Lavos through the Frozen Flame. They steadily grew to evolve out of using it after Zeal fell.

[ZealKnight]

Yes but similarly elements are the magic of the dragonians. Thats what I meant. I just didn't specify. My fault, I'm sorry.

[Mr Bekkler]

Good lord this topic grew fast.

 

I don't know what you're getting at here.

That's disappointing since you had a consideration for evolution in your explanation.  When I mentioned that their might be an ancestor base created in Zeal as a weapon, i used quotes to indicate a tag; that I was calling these creatures mystics because they could later evolve into mystics over the thousand of years.  If zeal is the 'now' (again a form of marking) then these monsters don't need sentience in Zeal for them to become sentient hundreds or thousands of years latter and then be the mystics you acknowledge.  Just because there aren't mystics directly in Zeal doesn't exclude that there could've been the root of "mystics" there.  Especially since you pointed out that possibility of magical waste stimulating their evolution.  Waste, by the way, that also doesn't have direct evidence of existence from "in game Zeal". (emphasis removed)

Don't take that part so personally. You worded it funny the first time. I get what you meant now. Thanks for clarifying.
And yes, I pointed out a possibility that would not disrupt canon. That's all it was, man.

Okay, Mr. All-Knowing. There are no sentient monsters SEEN IN GAME IN ZEAL. Pardon the fact that I assume everyone knows what I'm talking about is based entirely on in-game evidence.

Fact? Evidence?

Evidence? Show me a screenshot of a Mystic in Zeal from in-game. I could not find one.

maybe was a technology created by zeal.  

Maybe, emphasis added.  That's an expression of uncertainty.  Speculation.  Call it what you will, the reality is that you are making an inference based on PATTERNS observable in game.  And that's the same as I'm doing.  

I said my ideas were BASED on in-game evidence. You say they're INFERRED by in-game evidence. We're arguing for the sake of arguing here.

i really think it's not that complicated or hidden

Wow, and I'm all knowing?  A thousand apologies for trying to explain the patterns I've observed through the game's story telling without the fallacious notion of presumption.  

Wow indeed. What exactly is wrong with stating another possibility? Argument for the sake of argument.

Possible there is a connection and you are almost correct, but Masa and Mune were created from dreams as well as dreamstone. If they share an anti-Mystic property, it's possible the Mystics or the Frozen Flame have connections with nightmares. I'm thinking equal but opposite forces, key word being opposite.

And more ego writing here?  Wow, no wonder your attitude picked up; I must've hit a sensitive spot.  A sincere apologies this time.  Especially since you seem to be misreading part of my idea there.  Or rather I didn't explain it very clearly.  I'm fully aware that Masa and Mune are dream creatures.  And the connection you're making to 'nightmares' is derived from Queen Zeal's dialogue.  However, I brought them up and called them "non-Zealean entities" to point back to your comment of  "There were no sentient monsters IN Zeal"  I also could've pointed out the Nu's were in Zeal as well.  And Nu were sentient millennia before Zeal.  However, I stuck with just Masa and Mune because (formed as a sword,) iirc, it has an anti-mystic property as a weapon, which was to add further support to my idea that Zeal had some form of magically vulnerable creature(s) in its possession that would evolve (either naturally or artificially) into mystics.

I read correctly. It's not ego writing. I was trying to add to your idea. What was sensitive about that?

There were no sentient monsters IN Zeal (or any of Antiquity). None of them could speak, thus, they were not Mystics.

Poppycock. The lack of specific instances of speech does not preclude the possibility of speech. Consider all the people you pass every day who never say a word to you. Should you thus assume that they cannot speak, simply because you haven't heard them?

Okay. IIRC, there were no fights with non-humans in Zeal other than Nu and Golem. Nu and Golem are not necessarily Mystics. That's all I was getting at. I'm surprised actually, that nobody brought up the fact that Chrono never speaks in game, and with my shorthand logic above, must not be sentient.

It is interesting that these Mystic-like creatures are only found on Mt. Woe, a notably Zealean construct. Like the rest of Zeal, this mountain is floating, indicating direct Enlightened One activities. Indeed, depending on when one believes that Zeal was raised, it may even imply a direct connection to Lavos energy.

Very interesting indeed. While Mt. Woe was obviously made by the Enlightened, it was not actually a part of Zeal. Still it may indicate origins, even if the indication is loose and flimsy. Like you said, it all depends on when.