Author Topic: What Is "Justice"?  (Read 6274 times)

Radical_Dreamer

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Re: What Is "Justice"?
« Reply #45 on: October 27, 2009, 01:55:46 pm »
In that case, Radical_Dreamer, I haven't an answer for you.  I honestly don't.

If indeed my conclusion was arrived at from an off-beat approach, then perhaps the premise I'm simply trying to answer is: Why should the death penalty be more expensive than LWOP?

One reason is that when a death penalty is handed down, there is an automatic appeal. Despite what Scalia and Thomas would have you believe, most people want to be sure that if they are executing someone, that person is in fact guilty of a heinous crime. Are you opposed to your tax money going to ensure the guilt of those we execute?

GenesisOne

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Re: What Is "Justice"?
« Reply #46 on: October 27, 2009, 04:21:24 pm »

An automatic appeal?  Why waste the money and time?  The guy's obviously guilty enough in light of the evidence which demonstrates his guilt.

I'm not opposed to paying for a murderer paying the highest punishment for the taking of the highest valued thing on the planet: human life.  I am, however, opposed to the exorbitant amount that must be paid in order to carry out said execution.

The only reason the death penalty costs so much is because the prosecutors, attorneys, psychiatrists, and all other professional parties involved (when I say professional, I mean they are paid for their services) set the prices of their services so high it's ridiculous.

One claim against the death penalty I most often hear is "We might execute an innocent person by mistake."  Yes, there is an arbitrary chance that an innocent person might be executed by mistake, but this is just false sentimentality based on the most remote cases of this ever happening.

Let me put it this way: If government only functioned under the premise that the possibility of error didn't exist, then government wouldn't function at all.  The same goes for our current capital punishment system.

Did you know that, as of 2006, the average time served for first-degree murder in California (where I live) after 1978 is twenty-five years?  The median time is just a year more.  I kid you not:

http://www.cdcr.ca.gov/Reports_Research/Offender_Information_Services_Branch/Annual/TIME6/TIME6d2006.pdf

Seeing how LWOP is less expensive than the death penalty, then shouldn’t we be seeing more convicts with LWOP?  According to the above link, apparently not.  You want a screwed-up justice system? Try one that releases a first-degree murderer in as little as twenty-five years, and this isn’t taking into account that, even though they may have LWOP, they can still kill.  Google the names Richard Beigenwald and Lemuel Smith as evidence of this.  Neither from California, but their stories are true all the same.

Human life is precious and deserves protection from such people, and the death penalty is the best guarantee that we have that such people will never kill again.

Thought

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Re: What Is "Justice"?
« Reply #47 on: October 27, 2009, 05:31:09 pm »
One claim against the death penalty I most often hear is "We might execute an innocent person by mistake."  Yes, there is an arbitrary chance that an innocent person might be executed by mistake, but this is just false sentimentality based on the most remote cases of this ever happening.

Ah, you are willing to put a price on an innocent life, then? Given that remote cases do occasionally happen, albeit rarely, this should be a simple cost/benefit analysis. How much money should we spend ensuring that an individual is guilty before that costs exceeds that price of an innocent life? Of course, given that in a vaguely competent system there will be many more guilty individuals being executed than innocents, you should consider the price of an innocent life distributed across the guilty population.

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: What Is "Justice"?
« Reply #48 on: October 27, 2009, 10:08:40 pm »
A proper examination of a non-guilty going to prison: http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/10/26/chicago.love.innocence.1/index.html

Oh, and make sure you read the second part.

GenesisOne

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Re: What Is "Justice"?
« Reply #49 on: October 29, 2009, 01:48:32 pm »

Well, on the bright side, his innocence was finally proven, and he got to marry the love of his life.  A happy ending if I ever saw one.

The blame here lies in the victim for misidentifying her attacker.  Blame also lies in the evidence not being presented correctly at the trial (not having an alibi for that night = guilty??). Blame also lies in the detectives and police force for not doing their jobs correctly to catch the real culprit who could very well still be out there.

And they call this justice.



Radical_Dreamer

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Re: What Is "Justice"?
« Reply #50 on: October 29, 2009, 04:15:45 pm »
Does this not indicate that the justice system is sufficiently flawed that a mere conviction (without any subsequent appeals and follow up) should be insufficient to result in the death penalty being executed?

MsBlack

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Re: What Is "Justice"?
« Reply #51 on: October 29, 2009, 04:23:56 pm »
Tentatively, I would say that most broadly justice is, with respect to judicial criteria, accordance with those criteria in dealing with responsibilities and allowances.

Justice has to be with respect to judicial criteria because these set standards relevant to such decision-making by which accordance can be determined. Determining accordance is necessary because justice is a descriptor for things that accord to our take on justice. This accordance is in dealing with something because it is the process that is just or otherwise, as opposed to the result. This dealing is in responsibilities—what one should do—or in allowances—what one may do.

In a typical case in a legal system, justice is when, with respect to the laws of that system, the case is carried out correctly. Typically, this will result in—again with respect to the laws—a correct allowance (e.g. planning permission or rights) or correct responsibility (e.g. compensation or imprisonment) being conferred.

Criticism to help me refine this start wanted…

Radical_Dreamer

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Re: What Is "Justice"?
« Reply #52 on: October 29, 2009, 04:31:22 pm »
If I am reading your post correctly, MsBlack, it would seem that your conception of justice is largely tied into the proper execution of a judicial system. If I am reading this correctly, than the flaw that I see is that it provides no notion of how to determine whether the law itself is just or not.

GenesisOne

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Re: What Is "Justice"?
« Reply #53 on: October 29, 2009, 05:34:46 pm »

It indicates that, as that article you posted demonstrated, our justice system can put an innocent person on death row.  However, the fact that he was eventually freed from his false imprisonment shows that his story is no valid reason to abolish the death penalty.  That's like abolishing the ownership of cats as domestic pets because a random owner somewhere in the country got attacked by one. It's over-reactive.

Another common reason I hear for abolishing the death penalty is that no other major democracy practices the death penalty.  True, but then again, no other major democracy has the homicide rates that we have here in the U.S.  The latest statistics reveal that every 5.6 people per 100,000 are homicide victims.

You can read about them here:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/homtrnd.htm#contents

Also consider that different countries have different judicial systems, punishment and fine systems, etc.  If these countries had the homicide rates of the U.S., wouldn't they want to issue the death penalty?

The latest Gallup Poll is also in.  A 2/3 majority of Americans polled support the use of the death penalty:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/1606/Death-Penalty.aspx
« Last Edit: October 29, 2009, 05:37:53 pm by GenesisOne »

Thought

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Re: What Is "Justice"?
« Reply #54 on: October 29, 2009, 05:40:01 pm »
It indicates that, as that article you posted demonstrated, our justice system can put an innocent person behind bars.  However, the fact that he was eventually freed from his false imprisonment shows that his story is no valid reason to abolish the death penalty.

Not to abolish, but certainly to attempt to improve the judicial system so as to not take a person's life away from them unjustly. Indeed, please do note that it was the individual's efforts, not the judicial system's, that freed him.

A responsible judicial system thus costs money. The greater the penalty, the greater the responsibility, and thus the greater the cost.

If these countries had the homicide rates of the U.S., wouldn't they want to issue the death penalty?

Alternately, if the US didn't have the death penalty, would we have these homicide rates? Ill breeds ill, they say.

MsBlack

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Re: What Is "Justice"?
« Reply #55 on: October 29, 2009, 05:41:07 pm »
RD: You’re right that it doesn’t say exactly what makes for fair laws—indeed, that was the whole point of explicitly making it ‘with respect to’ something. I don’t think that makes it—in a general sense—invalid. In the same way that it’s valid that what is ‘ethical’ can be dependent on personal values, so too can justice be dependent on judicial values.

However, with both ‘ethical’ and ‘just’ (and indeed any continuous descriptor), both can be used without specifying a frame of reference. In such cases, it would be presumed that the person using the term would be referring to an arbitrary level of correspondence with their own criteria or success in the results of the proceedings in question. Strictly, the justice of a whole system is indeterminable from the system’s results regarding anything less than everything the system concerns; what generates those results must be evaluated to determine justice. (In practice, one could be reasonably confident in the justice of a system if all of its results and many of them married up with what one’s own system would dictate.)

For example, someone might say that a legal system is just even if one for every hundred people it sentences to death were sentenced incorrectly and even if it’s sentencing process differed from their own. One sees this when people say that justice has been done, even if, by their own version of justice, things would have been done differently and the result would have been different. In such cases, the judicial process was sufficiently suitable to their justice criteria that it was justice.

Your point is taken, though, that this all tells nothing of what, in practice, these ‘justice criteria’ should be. To answer also this broadly, the criteria should, to the best practical degree of success, generate effective results. In practice (and to briefly address the question as you see it), this necessitates criteria such as impartiality and pragmatism. However, I’ll avoid going into any more depth firstly because I think that it’s a distraction from my more general answer and secondly simply because I couldn’t go into satisfactory depth on such specifics. Specific and practical implementations can never satisfactorily define justice simply because they aren't definitions but examples.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2009, 05:42:47 pm by MsBlack »

GenesisOne

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Re: What Is "Justice"?
« Reply #56 on: October 29, 2009, 05:52:04 pm »

A responsible judicial system thus costs money. The greater the penalty, the greater the responsibility, and thus the greater the cost.

Perhaps, except a rapist raped his victim for free, a murderer killed his victim for free, etc.

Quote
If these countries had the homicide rates of the U.S., wouldn't they want to issue the death penalty?

Alternately, if the US didn't have the death penalty, would we have these homicide rates? Ill breeds ill, they say.

Who's they?  Also, what correlation do you draw between the use of the death penalty and its influence on homicide rates?  If indeed a murderer doesn't fear being caught, tried, and executed for his heinous crime, then what's wrong with using the death penalty on him?

Thought

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Re: What Is "Justice"?
« Reply #57 on: October 29, 2009, 06:02:38 pm »
Perhaps, except a rapist raped his victim for free, a murderer killed his victim for free, etc.

And that is the problem: it is always more costly to be good and just.

Who's they?

People. It's an old saying (at least where I grew up). Sort of like "it takes one to know one" or "never start a land-war in Asia."

Also, what correlation do you draw between the use of the death penalty and its influence on homicide rates?  If indeed a murderer doesn't fear being caught, tried, and executed for his heinous crime, then what's wrong with using the death penalty on him?

Me? I do not draw a correlation, I was merely pointing out that one objection to the death penalty is that it is indicative of a violent society. That we are so violent to use it is indicative that we are so violent as to need it.

GenesisOne

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Re: What Is "Justice"?
« Reply #58 on: October 29, 2009, 06:21:12 pm »

Actually, you bring up another common reason for one to oppose the death penalty: It's barbaric.

On June 22, 1984, the New York Times published an editorial that sarcastically attacked the new “hygienic” method of death by injection, and stated that “execution can never be made humane through science.”

In short, it’s not the method that really troubles opponents. It’s the death itself they consider barbaric.   

True, the death penalty isn't a pleasant topic to discuss. However, one does not have to like the death penalty in order to support it any more than one must like radical surgery, radiation, or chemotherapy in order to find necessary these attempts at treating cancer. We may someday learn how to treat cancer with a simple pill, but that day has not yet arrived.

Today we are faced with the choice of letting the cancer spread or trying to treat it with the methods available, methods that one day in the future will almost certainly be considered barbaric. But to give up and do nothing would be far more barbaric and would certainly delay the discovery of an eventual cure. The analogy between cancer and murder is imperfect, because murder is not the “disease” we are trying to cure. The disease is injustice.

We may not like the death penalty, but we need it to punish crimes of cold-blooded murder, crimes in which any other form of punishment would be inadequate and, therefore, unjust. If we maintain a society in which injustice is not tolerated, incidents of murder—the most flagrant form of injustice—might diminish.

Radical_Dreamer

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Re: What Is "Justice"?
« Reply #59 on: October 29, 2009, 07:00:51 pm »
GenesisOne, there seems to have been a misunderstanding. I was not asserting that the possibility of executing an innocent man is sufficient cause to abolish the death penalty. You have previously questioned the need for appeals in cases where the death penalty is handed down, and asserted that the initial conviction is evidence enough of guilt. I was asking you to reexamine this stance in light of the article that Boo posted, not your general pro death penalty stance.

I find it odd that you seem to be fixated with the economic cost of the death penalty being a major factor in whether or not it is just. You have tremendous wrath towards murderers, but what act defines a murderer? The taking of an innocent life. Surely it is worth some percentage of the tremendous value you place on innocent life to make sure that when applied, the death penalty results in an execution, and not in a murder, isn't it?